CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: Sprinkles on June 24, 2010, 05:25:53 PM
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Can anyone recommend this or something similar (not the electric shock ones!)? Brody is 11 months old and such a pest barking at birds in the garden. I think the neighbours may complain soon! I'm seeing a dog trainer and he is getting more under control if he see's a bird when on the lead. But in the garden it turns into a game, I go out to bring him in but I can't possibly catch him. He in the meantime is barking all the while looking straight through me at the bird whilst enjoying being chased by me >:D its all the more annoying if I'm unable to get straight to him if I'm upstairs or even on the loo :005: the back door is open alot at the moment as the weather is so nice. I don't want to keep the doors shut and let him out on a lead which was suggested to me.
Thanks
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I absolutely can't recommend anything like that... sorry....
:-\
Read this thread, by Top Barks, about why things like this can cause far more problems than they solve....
http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=47409.0 (http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=47409.0)
The air-collars etc all work on the same principle as shock collars - something unpleasant to interrupt behaviour - and all have the same potential for causing long term problems... :-\
Put him on a long line... then he can go out as he pleases, but you have the means to get him in when he is barking
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Put him on a long line... then he can go out as he pleases, but you have the means to get him in when he is barking
Thanks
I tried that, he bit through it. He had a lovely time! :shades:
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Sorry, but how long did he take to chew through a long-line? The one we have is pretty solid and would take some chewing (not impossible, but it's not going to be a 5 min job...)
I know others have used horse lunge lines as long-lines, which I imagine would stand up to more chewing....
:huh:
Otherwise I would revert to what has been suggested - not letting him out unsupervised.... you could always use baby gates so that a door could be left open for fresh air in this hot weather...
How would you propose using an anti-bark collar??
How would you know what he was barking at...? What would you do when he discovered that barking was in and of itself more rewarding than the air-release noise was upsetting...?
Someone on another forum was recently asking for advice on puppy biting, and reported back that things were progressing well, apart from the previous night when the pup was going absolutely ballistic and nothing would calm it down... they put it down to his OTT puppy behaviour, but it turned out someone had broken into their back garden and stolen their bikes.... unless you can see what he is barking at, how will you know it's appropriate to punish him for it?
And do you really think that using an aversive collar to interrupt is going to encourage him to want to come to you?
Another option is to find something irresistable so you can call him in from barking with that.... (when Honey decided to start barking at horses and cows on our walks, we used a squeaky toy to divert her attention back on to us...) - the danger with this is that they learn the barking achieves a reward, so it needs to be done alongside other training...
I really do understand how frustrating a barking dog is - especially one who has learned that his barking is a great way to get a game of chase from its owner.... but I passionately believe that aversive training has no place in modern dog training (there may be some occassions where life was at stake where I can understand why people go down that route, but I still don't agree with it...)
Obviously, just my opinion... :shades:
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I completely agree. Keli was prescribed an Aboistop from Roger Mugford's because he barked at all dogs. He ended up just barking to empty the cannister and thus the barking was not averted. Dogs bark it's what they do.
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Dogs bark it's what they do.
Absolutley ;)
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I absolutely agree with Karma and the others. I personally would never use an anti bark collar. I once read in a book that teaching the "speak" command along with the "quiet" command helps. Be careful not to teach the dog that if he starts barking for no reason, he gets a reward.
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I would reccomend doing what Karma said and try the long line again, a cheap option would be to buy a some rope from a hardware store ;). You could put a bitter tasting spray on it to stop him chewing and provide toys that he can chew instead. i know its hot and would be a pain but perhaps for a few weeks only let him out when your there to supervise and reward when he's being good?
If you do go down the route of using an air collar anyway then you should get a remote control one, at least then he won't accidently be punished when you don't want him to.
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Thanks everyone. Off to the local hardware store for a rope or equivalent tomorrow. The anti chew spray is a great idea too. Steering clear of the "friendly" bark collars also you'll be relieved know. X
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My Bailey was a dreadful barker as a pup :-\ I taught her 'Quiet' with reward at the first instance of silence it took a few weeks to perfect she is now 5 yrs old and rarely barks. I taught my other 4 the same way and thankfully life is without barking dogs, unless of course its required.
good luck hope all goes well and life gets quieter for you both :blink:
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My Bailey was a dreadful barker as a pup :-\ I taught her 'Quiet' with reward at the first instance of silence it took a few weeks to perfect she is now 5 yrs old and rarely barks. I taught my other 4 the same way and thankfully life is without barking dogs, unless of course its required.
good luck hope all goes well and life gets quieter for you both :blink:
Thankyou. Is "quiet" literally saying the word when they bark with immediate reward??
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My Bailey was a dreadful barker as a pup :-\ I taught her 'Quiet' with reward at the first instance of silence it took a few weeks to perfect she is now 5 yrs old and rarely barks. I taught my other 4 the same way and thankfully life is without barking dogs, unless of course its required.
can i ask at what age this was taught? would you say it was too late to try this with a 3yr old prominent barker?
we tried the friendly anti bark collars and they do not work. Poppy quickly learnt that if she barked solid for a minute then the canister was empty and she could run round and bark to her hearts content then. >:(
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My Bailey was a dreadful barker as a pup :-\ I taught her 'Quiet' with reward at the first instance of silence it took a few weeks to perfect she is now 5 yrs old and rarely barks. I taught my other 4 the same way and thankfully life is without barking dogs, unless of course its required.
good luck hope all goes well and life gets quieter for you both :blink:
Thankyou. Is "quiet" literally saying the word when they bark with immediate reward??
No you want to associate the word quiet with a period of quiet, not with barking.
When you teach a dog a certain word, you must make an association with that word and what the dog is doing which takes a while before you can use it up front.
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Thanks again TB. He was just in the kitchen sitting quietly watching me prep and I said quiet and rewarded. I'll keep doing that. Can I please ask your advice re a few other things.
What is your advice for
1."leave" (as you recommended in my other post)
2."off" (furniture and our bed)
3. He is getting a little aggressive :'( (He was neutered 2 weeks ago fyi) When he is getting a little unruley I have been going back to puppy days and putting him in the kitchen. But he's really starting to mouth hard if not actually bite me. (not breaking the skin thank goodness) What am i doing wrong?? I know this is all teenage stage but it's SO hard! :'(
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Top Barks I Just checked out your web site. FANTASTIC! Wish you were closer :016:! Do you think the cheese thing would work with the birds?
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possibly, why not give it a go. ;)
For off, possibly a house line to move him or throw a treat off your bed and introduce the word off as he jumps off. also make being on the floor very rewarding i would teach him to sit or lie on a mat and make it worth his while.
Teaching leave
Have a piece of food in the palm of your hand; show this to your dog. He will be interested and possibly try to grab the titbit.
As he moves forward to take the food close your hand making the food unavailable.
You should keep your hand still rather than pulling it away.
When the dog gives up ‘mugging’ your hand and backs off give the cue leave it, open your hand and give him the food using your other hand, along with the cue ‘take it’
Repeat this several times until your dog realises that it is pointless to grab the food.
Build this up so that the titbit can be visible for several seconds before the dog is rewarded.
It is important that you do not allow your dog to help himself to the reward, he must be given it from you and always from the other hand that he has been told to leave.
It is very important that you use the take it command as you reward, this conditions the dog to come back to you for the reward, rather than snatching up the ‘forbidden food’.
Start rewarding the dog from your pocket or somewhere other than your hand.
You might want to use your treat bag.
Progressing the leave
We need to move this on because in real life your dog will pick up items from the floor that we need him to leave so this is how we get dogs to leave stuff on the floor.
Food on the floor is perceived in a different manner by the dog.
Lower your hand toward the floor, and in several different directions. Repeat the above, and then move it into another room, outside--wherever you can.
It takes a while for the dog to learn to "generalize" the behaviour.
Just because he knows how to "leave it" in the kitchen facing north doesn't mean he will understand he has to also do it in the bedroom facing east.
So you back up a few steps, re teach the behaviour in each new environment, setting the dog up for success.
This usually takes only a couple of clicks to get the brain in gear in a new environment.
Once you can lower and raise your hand and the dog will back off, put treats on the floor and watch closely!
Now is when the chowhounds think "free meal" and will jump on it.
Be ready to put your palm OVER the treats.
You don't want the dog to get those treats because if he does, it is very strong "variable" reinforcement.
What does that mean? Well, variable reinforcement is something that happens not every time, but it has happened before and probably will happen again.
Like a slot machine. You know when you put your 10 pence in, each pull of the handle won't net you a payoff.
But you have gotten a payoff before, and you suspect you will again, so you keep on chucking in those 10 p’s and hoping the bars will come up with three cherries. That's the power of variable reinforcement.
So, you don't want your dog to get those treats on the floor!
Keep repeating the "leave it" and click and treat, never allowing the dog to have the treats on the floor, but only the other treats you will give him from your hand.
This all goes very rapidly, and within 15 minutes you should have a pretty good behaviour going the first time you try it.
Again, once your dog is effectively ignoring treats on the floor, you can make things harder and walk him by the treats, saying "leave it" before you get to the treats on the floor.
But be careful: don't tighten up on that leash involuntarily and make 'leave it' a punisher. The dog needs to make a choice, and make the choice you want him to make. He will, if the reinforcement is strong enough.
You will be happy when you can stop your dog from investigating the garbage, faeces, a dead animal, or a box of mouse poison, so take the time to teach your dog to “leave it.”
The way to success in teaching your dog tricks is patience, practice, praise, and persistence. Every step in the right direction should be rewarded as though she has just won the lottery. Tricks are fun – learning how to do them should be fun, too.
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Thank you SO Mark much :bigarmhug: I'm very grateful for your help. (I hope you had all that stored somewhere and did a copy & paste! ;))
Can I trouble you to advise me on the last matter of walking on a loose lead I've just spied your recall post which I'm about to visit. :luv:
I do have Gwen Baileys puppy book and have visted a trainer twice but his methods are not to my liking!!
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Have a look at these links ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W25gnqxJqg
http://www.youtube.com/user/kikopup#p/a/u/2/ueE1S1k74Ao
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Thanks once again. I'll let you know how it goes! Fingers crossed. :D