CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: black taz on October 02, 2010, 11:51:38 AM
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Taz has become the dog from hell again off lead >:D within the space of a couple of weeks.
We regularly go to a nearby nature park, with lots of tempting scents. Until the last couple of weeks, Taz would go off and have a sniff but would return within a couple of minutes, the last couple of weeks he has been really bad, going off an not coming back for ages then when he does come back if i look towards him he tears off again the opposite direction until he is ready to come back.
I have gone back to basics so many times, taken it steady and not moved on to the next step until he was ready, etc., but it seems he gets to the point where he is reliable, sticks to it for a month or so, tricks me into a false sense of security then reverts back to ignoring me. In the house he is a dream, and the last couple of months he has been brilliant at agility (he used to disappear there too), but this time he is worse than ever. He also has this "look" and when he stands there with this "look" on this face, i know that nothing i do will stop him from doing a runner. When he does finally come back to me, i dont shout at him, just put him back on the lead. Fortunately, my lab (10 months) does recall.
Its really starting to limit our off lead walks, as i cannot let him off at any of our usual close by parks in case he goes in the fields (where the farmers will shoot). I am really starting to think our only option is to keep him on lead and accept defeat.
I just wonder if this could be a result of a really distruptive summer we have had - we have had a kitchen extension which has meant that we have had a lot of workmen around and Taz doesnt really like strangers (although he seems fairly happy iwth them) on top of this i had a major event at work about 3 weeks ago, and prior to that had had to work long hours (sons or hubby where around most of the time so the dogs werent left unattended). He hs also seemed in a strange mood, and in a morning hasnt been keen to come for a walk. Any advise?
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tricks me into a false sense of security then reverts back to ignoring me.
I personally start with the assumption my dogs are going to be naughty. :005: So each and every walk we have a little recall practice.
Unfortuntately your work will never be done with regards to training. Unless you keep practicing regularly standards start to slip and before you know it your back where you started.
My advise for the look would be as soon as he gives it you, you turn and run in the opposite direction (works incredibly well if you do so while screaming and/or waving your arms but this is optional. :005:). He will almost certainly chase you rather than go off in the opposite direction. When he reaches you reward. It'll breaks the pattern of naughty behaviour
Failing that you could use a long line. If you get the "screw you" look you can stand on the lead. :005:
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I always start the walk with recalls with treats, just remind them what they get when they come back to me. i have tried the running in the opposite direction (with and without the waving of arms and calling excitedly :005:) but he still does his own thing. Annoyingly enough, the longline was in my bag today, but as he had recalled perfectly during the first 5 minutes or so of the walk, i didnt put it on him - needless to say the longline is going to be my best friend for some time to come - at the moment i may never let him off lead other than at agility again >:D
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black taz, is it worth upping the value of the treats at all? (though of course you may have done this already!)
Also, just wondered, are you calling his name for recall or are you using a whistle?
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I can't say I've noticed any difference in Posie's behaviour no matter what the treat is. Fortunately it is generally a quick and positive response. However, we can practise in the house and garden all we like, but when she's out on a walk on a long lead, she seems less inclined to pay much attention and so we haven't trusted her off the lead yet. Hopefully the holiday next week will give us a chance because we'll be in the middle of nowhere with few distractions - other than smells.
It strikes me that consistency is the key. Keep trying with taz.
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As mooching has said, it might be worth upping the value of Taz's treats for a prompt recall.
My girls only ever get pilchard cake on recall to the whistle.
During my walk I randomly recall them as I like to keep them on their toes. It does help that they are very greedy girls ;)
Would you consider going right back to the start of Top Barks recall lessons using a very high value treat that he only ever gets on recall?
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Petepreston,
Have you read this excellent post at all by Top Barks? It's brilliant, and has been a great help to us with teaching recall to Alfie. Alfie's been having off-lead time twice a day now for about 6 weeks (he's 5 1/2 months old now) and is doing excellently with the whistle and clicker, thanks to the sound advice in this post:
http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=69512.0 (http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=69512.0)
As Posie is a worker, it's especially important that she has regular off-lead time.
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From someone that has already admitted defeat I know where you're coming from ;). I would say the fact that he looks at you before bogging off gives you hope, Millie is just so interested in hunting she pays me no attention when she gets going. Perhaps don't do recall training at the beginning? Maybe he's already had enough food rewards so then running off is more rewarding for him? Do you play games while you're on a walk? Millie loves fetching/chasing her ball and I had a lot of success in using that as a reward rather than food. You don't even have to make him recall right up to you, just shout his name and as he's running towards you throw the ball off to one side/behind you, then I give a food reward for giving the ball up. I also save a massive amount of treats for when she has to go back on the lead at the end of the walk so she is happy to go back on the lead.
Another thing is Autumn is always worse as the smells become much sharper and there are lots of this summers baby animals around, especially squirrels >:( >:(.
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Ha, I know this so well! I have posted in the past about Freddie's recall - he mobbed a couple of chihuahuas a while back and it caught me on a bad day - the owner's comments really upset me "You can't control your dog" etc - perfectly true but I do try! I got a whistle and long line and started training using Top Barks thread but can't get to the stage of a reliable recall to the whistle when he is playing or following a scent. We have got into tangles with the long line on so many occasions because our regular off lead walk is by hedgerows. Freddie is 1 on 20th October and I really really wish I had started whistle training recall from day 1. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, though. Like the OP's dog, Freddie can be a star but the smells at the moment are just soo tempting - saw a rabbit this morning - well you should have seen him go! Having said that, on the way to our walk this afternoon, he recalled brilliantly even though he had seen a dog in the distance and had started running towards it. So there are glimmers of hope on the horizon. Keep at it is what I say to myself. I think recall will always be a work in progress with Freddie... ::)
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at least its a relief that its not just me that has problems!
I have done both the name recall and whistle training, both get to the stage where he is consistent then its almost as if he remembers that if he bogs off there is little i can do to get him back if he doesnt want to come back. The fact the Kira is pretty consistent at coming back does give me some hope that i am not a complete loss. As it is coming upto the dark nights so very little chance to let hem off after work i am going right back to basics with him and if i do let him off only do so if it is a safe environment where he cannot get into trouble and don't recall him (ie: wait till he comes back to me).
I have tried the playing and to be honest he really isnt that bothered. With treats it depends on how much more interesting the scent is - chicken and cheese are his favourites but if the scent is interesting he isnt bothered with the treat.
Its so frustrating as otherwise his behaviour is excellent :luv:
thanks for all your help and advice though - back to basics though - wish me luck
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Have you tried him with frankfurters at all, blacktaz? Or livercake/tunacake?
Just wondered if a change of treat might help. :D
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Just to let you know there are more of us with the same problem, Harvey is another >:D in this area. Today he ran up to four rottweilers on the beach, one of which was on the lead (couldn't see that to begin with), the owners glared as I tried to catch up and thier on lead dog tried to eat him. As he did finally recall one chased him back to me and had a good go at grabbing him too! To be fair I don't think dogs that aggressive should be on the very busy beach on a saturday afternoon with loads of kids and dogs. Not the point though I know, its so embarassing and we always have some sort of incident on walks which is so frustrating. He only does it when he sees a dog, otherwise hes fairly reliable. I am going to start whistle training with cheese to see if thats more reliable ::)
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Just to let you know there are more of us with the same problem, Harvey is another >:D in this area. Today he ran up to four rottweilers on the beach, one of which was on the lead (couldn't see that to begin with), the owners glared as I tried to catch up and thier on lead dog tried to eat him. As he did finally recall one chased him back to me and had a good go at grabbing him too! To be fair I don't think dogs that aggressive should be on the very busy beach on a saturday afternoon with loads of kids and dogs. Not the point though I know, its so embarassing and we always have some sort of incident on walks which is so frustrating. He only does it when he sees a dog, otherwise hes fairly reliable. I am going to start whistle training with cheese to see if thats more reliable ::)
I found my boy was much more difficult to recall compared with my girl as well. He seems much more adventrous and a bit to keen to say hello to absolutely everyone. I wonder if its a male thing...
Luckerly now Dexters older hes improved so hang in there. I saw the biggest improvemet when I started using "doggies" as a recall word to call both my two rather than Dexters name (i do still use his name occasionally). I suppose you use their name all the time but "doggies" is the command thats only used for recall. I suppose they why whistles can improve recall.
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I'm glad too that I am not the only one with recall problems - it seems that almost every other dog I see is better than Freddie, even a 9 month old terrier he was playing with this morning. Like Taz, Freddie doesn't want to play when he's out and even though he is an absolute >:D around food at home, once he is off lead, if there is a good smell or a very playful dog around he loses all interest in treats. He has tuna bread as a general treat, cheese for recall. For the whistle I made pilchard bread but it didn't seem to make a difference. I thought about buying some frankfurters but looked at the list of ingredients and put the tin back! ph34r :005:
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I can sympathise with this, and have to say Alfie & I have been backsliding on recall etc. He also can't seem to Wait any more without slinking a few steps forward the minute I turn my head and stop looking at him. This is all my fault - we've had a busy summer and I've become complacent and lazy during walks, and I need to get my act together. Even my friend who is registered blind has to do 30 minutes training every day with her guide dog or the dog slips back into being a "normal" dog rather than a guide dog.
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cockertimeblues - you may have a point. Although i do training with them both, over the summer due to reasons mentioned earlier the level of training has dropped - what i cannot understand though it how quickly he has gone down hill to the point where he is the worst he has ever been this last week. Obviously training today has been higher than normal but he seems to know the different between "training sessions" and the rest of the time when it comes to recall.
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How old is he now?
You will get through it... Any dog with an ounce of spark about it (and we wouldn't want them any other way, right?) has to practice recall every single day - as you know, and it takes time for it to become solid and an instant behaviour. Dave has been my easiest dog by far, but even then he buggers me about on the odd day I had a horrendous walk with him a couple of weeks ago... I though I'd take just him out for 3 hours, we'd have a great time and explore somewhere new, just the two of us, no kids :banana: :banana: EVERY single time I let him off lead he buggered off and was completely deaf to my whistle. He NEVER does this and bizarrely hasn't done it since... ::)
Normy was terrifying when I first got her and for a year and a half I lost her every single walk for up to 40 mins but she now has the most solid solid lightening fast recall that makes me cry sometimes - even at dusk when there are bun buns around and she goes totally out of sight, across 2 fields, she is back at high speed within seconds of me whistling and I never ever would have dreamed in a million years we'd have got to this stage...
Don't loose heart, keep practicing and up your reward every so often to keep him on his toes (roast chicken with lemon and garlic is always a winner here :005:).. with time you'll become the most interesting rewarding thing for him, but he probably has to get the other stuff out of his system too ;)
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cockertimeblues - you may have a point. Although i do training with them both, over the summer due to reasons mentioned earlier the level of training has dropped - what i cannot understand though it how quickly he has gone down hill to the point where he is the worst he has ever been this last week. Obviously training today has been higher than normal but he seems to know the different between "training sessions" and the rest of the time when it comes to recall.
Id recomend try to make Every walk feel like a training session in Taz's mind. Thats why i always start every walk with a refresher on a few basics and then random practice recalls throughout the walk. It should be a training session with an occasional bit of free time rather than the other way round. If they switch off from training mode on a walk that when things go downhill.
You can relax this later once Taz is responding to you better but for now Id be building recall training time into every single walk to really attempt to crack it
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Just to let you know there are more of us with the same problem, Harvey is another >:D in this area. Today he ran up to four rottweilers on the beach, one of which was on the lead (couldn't see that to begin with), the owners glared as I tried to catch up and thier on lead dog tried to eat him. As he did finally recall one chased him back to me and had a good go at grabbing him too! To be fair I don't think dogs that aggressive should be on the very busy beach on a saturday afternoon with loads of kids and dogs. Not the point though I know, its so embarassing and we always have some sort of incident on walks which is so frustrating. He only does it when he sees a dog, otherwise hes fairly reliable. I am going to start whistle training with cheese to see if thats more reliable ::)
I found my boy was much more difficult to recall compared with my girl as well. He seems much more adventrous and a bit to keen to say hello to absolutely everyone. I wonder if its a male thing...
Luckerly now Dexters older hes improved so hang in there. I saw the biggest improvemet when I started using "doggies" as a recall word to call both my two rather than Dexters name (i do still use his name occasionally). I suppose you use their name all the time but "doggies" is the command thats only used for recall. I suppose they why whistles can improve recall.
Thats really good to hear Sarah, I myself was thinking it was a boy thing but then I only had Freya to compare him to! I'm also really relieved to hear it does get better, only yesterday I was saying "I really hope this improves as i'm not sure how long I could cope!". I will try using a different word whilst I try to crack the whistle training, thats a really good idea and it makes sense. Thanks for the reassurance and advice x
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When I go out with my dogs on a "walk" quite often i don't really walk that far in reality.
Most of my time is spent working with them and playing with them, keeping them close rewarding them for checking in and really as much as possible making myself the hub of all activity going on.
Dogs need to see us as very valuable and the way to that is control what the dog wants in all environments.
I think the strength of my recall is not only founded on the actual training of the recall its self but also the fact i am very very very valuable to be around when out.
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When I go out with my dogs on a "walk" quite often i don't really walk that far in reality.
Most of my time is spent working with them and playing with them, keeping them close rewarding them for checking in and really as much as possible making myself the hub of all activity going on.
Dogs need to see us as very valuable and the way to that is control what the dog wants in all environments.
I think the strength of my recall is not only founded on the actual training of the recall its self but also the fact i am very very very valuable to be around when out.
Oh Mark, you do put us all to shame! Of course you are so absolutely right but it is so, so hard when in the morning the walk needs to tire Freddie out so he will be relaxed when I go to work. I have tried getting him interested in a squeaky tennis ball - he plays with it in the garden and almost brings it back for a treat but I have taken it out on walks and thrown it - he just ignores it. What is the best thing to do to make yourself interesting to a dog? I do recall frequently, but not too often, and when he checks in without being recalled. I also give him a really big fuss once in a while as per your recall training thread. Sometimes, though, he just finds a scent, nose goes down, tail wagging furiously and he is off. He does return eventually - I haven't lost him yet - but he doesn't respond to my recall. I know I shouldn't recall more than once but if he has bombed off out of sight - I worry he won't know where I am so call him now and then to give him a bearing to work on? Also with the long line - should I be letting it trail on the ground or have hold of the end of it? I am endlessly treading on it by accident and getting tangled up as Freddie darts all over the place. Sorry, I have hijacked the thread! ph34r
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When I go out with my dogs on a "walk" quite often i don't really walk that far in reality.
Most of my time is spent working with them and playing with them, keeping them close rewarding them for checking in and really as much as possible making myself the hub of all activity going on.
Dogs need to see us as very valuable and the way to that is control what the dog wants in all environments.
I think the strength of my recall is not only founded on the actual training of the recall its self but also the fact i am very very very valuable to be around when out.
Such good good advice - this is exactly how our trainer has taught us to be with our lot, there should be no one else that matters in your dog's world more than you and how you achieve this doesn't matter.....be noisy, be silly, carry smelly food...my hubby has developed a really high voice in the last few years - he has a brilliant 'good boy' than can apparently be heard on all the shoots:005: :005:
I'm not saying my lot are perfect but they're a good example of dogs that have been taught that being with us is much more rewarding than with anyone else.
A sad example at the moment is a couple up our park who recently got a black lab - she is now 8 months old and basically does what she wants. The owners are full of frustration and blame the dog.....they have no concept of giving her any motivation to be with them at all....no balls, no tuggy ropes, no treats, their monotone voices drive me crazy. She came over to talk to us about it (again), ranting and raving - they truly believe dogs are just born knowing how to recall or walk to heel. She readily admitted she hates walking the dog and has no pleasure in it. I asked the other day if she was food motivated and the answer was yes sometimes....I suggested a tube of cream cheese...smelly and a high reward......know what the owner's reply was......'what exactly is that supposed to do then?' >:( >:(
I can only say follow Mark's advice.....we're not trainers by any stretch but I am chuffed to be able to say our dogs are under good control...we've spent the whole of the summer trying to give tips to the owners of this lovely lab and I am so saddened and quite frustrated with them >:(
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Alfie's recall has been slipping lately and i came across that thread of Top Bark's. I ordered a whistle (really wanted a pink one but my dad wouldnt let me :'( :005:) and have started training him. So far, so good. Were on the 'garden' stage now and he is responding really well to it. I really want his recall to be perfect rather than hit and miss like it has been so hopefully this method will work.
Good luck ;) xxx
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Just some of the stuff i do on "walks" ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5au3M1AqoY
Sometimes we don't go any further than the van for me attention has to happen before the walk in order for it to continue.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPoB7PjVp2o
We always try and have fun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9L8WYU9Efg
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thanks Top Barks - i have just watched one of your videos (what a fantastic area to walk in). I think had it in my mind that training was something i wanted to do rather than what the dogs want to do on a walk, but your video shows that the dogs really enjoy it. I will try and keep the training more upbeat but go back to your post of whistle training going right back to basics.
do you reward every time you click, or do they just accept the click as a reward now?
thanks
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I have watched these videos before in awe of what you do with your dogs, Mark. I guess I have got to believe it is possible to have that relationship with Freddie and I have got to want to do it 100% of the time. Whilst out today he ran out of the Millenium wood we go to as he saw some people walk past. I called him and he came back straight away. He got loads of praise for that as there are horses in fields nearby and we have had an incident with him in a field of horses before! I also did some training and threw some treats in the grass in the stone circle for him to find. He wasn't brilliant later on when he was playing with other dogs but ultimately he did come back to me when I ran in the opposite direction :D squeaking Fred Fred Fred!
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the clicker is only used when teaching the dog what you want it to do to earn a reward.
Once the dog is offering a behaviour like checking in frequently then i fade the clicker.
In answer to your question do i reward if I click then the answer is yes, but remember a reward can be all sorts of things, you just have to figure out what your dog wants and enjoys.
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Top Barks you and your dogs are an inspiration to me, I hope with time and effort we get somewhere close to what you and your dogs are. You make me want to get out and train harder! Starting the whistle training tomorrow hoping it helps with Harveys bogging off >:(
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What a difference a bit of advice makes (and probably luck :005:). Took the dogs to the park/fields in the next village and as OH was with me decided to give Taz the benefit of the doubt and let him off (it is fairly safe).
I started them off in a sit before releasing them, played ball with them both, with lots of recall, and we had a really good walk. At one point a horse ran by us in the next field, both of them went to go to see what it was, i recalled and Taz was actually the first one back :luv:. Not going to let him lull me into a false sense of security though - and recall training is going to be high on the agenda for ever! Thing is, at the end of the walk he seemed so much more happier as well.
thanks for all your advise
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What a difference a bit of advice makes (and probably luck :005:). Took the dogs to the park/fields in the next village and as OH was with me decided to give Taz the benefit of the doubt and let him off (it is fairly safe).
I started them off in a sit before releasing them, played ball with them both, with lots of recall, and we had a really good walk. At one point a horse ran by us in the next field, both of them went to go to see what it was, i recalled and Taz was actually the first one back :luv:. Not going to let him lull me into a false sense of security though - and recall training is going to be high on the agenda for ever! Thing is, at the end of the walk he seemed so much more happier as well.
thanks for all your advise
I too have upped my interaction with Freddie. There is a nice stone circle in the millenium wood where I stop to do some training and throw tuna bread in the grass. He ran out of the gap in the fence again this afternoon but came back straight away when I recalled him. :D Like black taz, though, I don't think I will EVER take his recall for granted!