CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: Loes on April 18, 2011, 01:37:22 PM
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A recently received a copy of the breed supplement and I have a questing regarding the colours: Sometimes is said "
colour not recognized by Kc". I thought all colours were accepted in cockers.
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here's a link to the kennel club site - some of the colours listed there I find a little odd anyway...
http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/breeds/colours.aspx?id=2052 (http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/breeds/colours.aspx?id=2052)
what colour were you specifically thinking of?
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I think the sable roans or blue roan and sables that I've seen would go under "colour not recognised".
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here's a link to the kennel club site - some of the colours listed there I find a little odd anyway...
http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/breeds/colours.aspx?id=2052 (http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/breeds/colours.aspx?id=2052)
How weird! Liver and chocolate can both be registered :huh: i thought they were registered as liver but some people just called them chocolate/choc roan etc. Strange :blink:
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I don't know the colours of the parents are not listed in the breedsupplement. I can only see the colours of the littermates.
Some other cockers are also another colour-option: "any other colour". But there is no mention of not being recognized by the Kc.
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Jeanette: Sable, chocolate (liver) roan are listed. Sable roan is not, I can see pups that are sable with brothers and sisters who are registered as black & white or roan. Maybe these are sable-roan? ph34r
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Jeanette: Sable, chocolate (liver) roan are listed.
I know they are, I didn't mention them ;)
ETA you may get some breeders who can shed more light on it than me and have had experience of what colours not recognised means.
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When I bought Ernie the breeder had registered him as a dark sable but the kennel club wouldn`t accept it, he and his littermates had to be just `sable` dont know if this helps
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The KC have not included some colours/patterns in their list of acceptable colours for the breed, mainly the sable particolours and some of the "and tickeds". This was done at the request of the Cocker Breed Council and was voted on by all the member clubs of the Breed Council. For colours/patterns not on the KC list, registrations will appear as "colour not recognised by the KC"
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Solid sable is pattern too, isn't it? I heared a rumour that (solid) sable was going to be unrecognized too, is that true? Or is it just sable-roan that is off the list?
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Solid sable is pattern too, isn't it? I heared a rumour that (solid) sable was going to be unrecognized too, is that true? Or is it just sable-roan that is off the list?
Just sable particolours are off the list - sables (solid) are still recognised and won't be un-recognised because too many have already been registered and some have stud book numbers now.
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I get it. But what is stopping breeders to register roan-sable as a regular roan? I see lots of litters with sable (solid) pups and roan siblings. ph34r
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Belle is sable roan in colour and as this colour is not recognised with the kennel club it is shown as sable on her certificate.
I don't mind as I think she is beautiful!!!!
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I get it. But what is stopping breeders to register roan-sable as a regular roan? I see lots of litters with sable (solid) pups and roan siblings. ph34r
Nothing. You can register a puppy any colour you like as long as it's on the list.
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I have posted this info on another forum, it seems in Germany they put the sable-roan colour as sable (solid). :huh:
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in germany we have the sable (solid) and sable roan (pati color)
i now a sable roan, a import from sweden has in his pedigree the color sable and is registrated in germany as sable roan. he is a sable roan!
i think in moment it is a lot of chaos with this both colors.
by facebook is in moment the information that the sable will be banned now. has one of you more informations abaut the discussion in the kc or by the clubs in england?
sorry for my bad english
regards
doro
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The KC is in the process of approving a change to the Cocker breed standard to include a list of accepted colours - sable will not be included in this list.
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The KC is in the process of approving a change to the Cocker breed standard to include a list of accepted colours - sable will not be included in this list.
Can I ask why sable is not included ?
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The KC is in the process of approving a change to the Cocker breed standard to include a list of accepted colours - sable will not be included in this list.
Can I ask why sable is not included ?
It was the decision of the breed clubs who all voted on this through the Cocker Breed Council (http://www.cockerspaniel-info.org.uk/). It won't actually stop people breeding sables, just as other non-standard colours are still bred & registered in other breeds (eg white Boxers or white GSDs)
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Jane: I thought (solid) sable would still be accepted as colour.
Is there a difference between registering and a regular pedigree?
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The KC is in the process of approving a change to the Cocker breed standard to include a list of accepted colours - sable will not be included in this list.
Can I ask why sable is not included ?
It was the decision of the breed clubs who all voted on this through the Cocker Breed Council (http://www.cockerspaniel-info.org.uk/). It won't actually stop people breeding sables, just as other non-standard colours are still bred & registered in other breeds (eg white Boxers or white GSDs)
So basically they are saying that `sables` are a mismark or a throw back ?
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let me see if i understand right
sable and sable roan will not longer acceped when the standard is change. is the ban for both colors or only for the sable roan? the sables (solid) are breed in germany since more than 25 years.
when the colors are banned and a sable puppie will born it will registred but i can not show it or breed with them?
i am rigth?
it is very interesting for me because a friend of me loves and breed sables. long years solid sables and since last year sable roans.
ok sable is not my color and i will not breed with them but we have a lot of lovers from this color. 25 years ago i have hope that the solid sables will banned but nothing was happend. i think now it is to late to bann the solid sable.
it is also interesting because the standard is the same worldwide and when the kc change the standard germany must do the same in his breedingrules.
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I would have thought they would have at least recognised Solid sables as Doro said they are quite established and I had heard a British bred Sable recently got to Champion in Europe. I do feel the Breed club and Kc have played rite into the hands of the breeders who put a premium on sable pups making them the forbidden fruit, I have heard one recently sold for 1100 pounds JUST because it was sable :o BTW Doro you have a lovely website great looking dogs :luv:
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Sorry don't have time to write a lengthy reply but think it's perhaps not right to talk about a ban - not including a colour in a list of desirable colours is the not the same thing as a ban. No colour is banned or disqualified but there will be a list of desirable colours. I don't know how the registrations will work once the breed standard is changed - possibly sable (all variations) will have to be registered as "non standard colour" as I think happens in other breeds but I don't really know so we will have to wait and see.
I think if anyone wants further clarification on this, perhaps they could contact either the Breed Council or the Kennel Club.
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I don't want to get into a discussion about this, but I understand it is because sable is a dominate gene, and they are afraid that in say 50 years all cockers will be sable and we will lose all our beautiful colours we have now.
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@ cockersmum, That depend on the cleverness of the breeders don't you think? There will always be people who wants a blue roan, orange roan, liver roan, and the same with all the beautiful solids....
I think a ban on mixing particolours and solids would makes more sense.. :huh:
@Doro, do you mean Ute?
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I think a ban on mixing particolours and solids would makes more sense.. :huh:
I could just see working cocker breeders and trialers going for that :shades: I think world war 3 comes to mind :lol2:
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Why? Is it whit in the working cockerline usual to mix particolours and solids?
I personally think that mixing both in showline makes the pure solid more rare. To much white in the solids or white in the wrong places... that 's not according to the breedingstandard isn't it?
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Why? Is it whit in the working cockerline usual to mix particolours and solids?
colour does not really matter as much when breeding a working cocker - temperament, biddability, conformation (to a breeders particular requirements not necessarily breed standard), health, and of course being fit for purpose all come first.
You see a lot of mismarked working cockers - mine is - his dad is a liver roan and his mum a solid black and when I trim his feet his mismarked roan back paws are evident :lol2: But he fulfills all the requirements for being a good solid healthy working dog ;)
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@ Marina and Saartje i know ute but i mean a other breeder
realy, sable is a dominant gene but that we have only sables in 50 jears is nonsense because it is enough that sable comes from one side but if you make combinations with sable and a other solid color you have not only sable in this litters. the sable color is not so dominant like dominant black. ( :D i don't now how to say it better in english ) germany breed sables since more than 25 years and in the first years all want this color and a lot of puppies was born in sable. today it is a normal solid color .
the new trent mixing solids and partie is more dangerus for the solids i think. with this mix we loose the clear solid gene and type.
i am a solid breeder with the classical colors and it will be from year to year harder to find dogs witout sable and witout partie colors (tis i searce by min 8-9 generations) in there pedigree.
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@ Marina and Saartje i know ute but i mean a other breeder
Okay I thought it would be ute because she's a sable breeder also. both the solid as well as the roan.
the new trent mixing solids and partie is more dangerus for the solids i think. with this mix we loose the clear solid gene and type.
i am a solid breeder with the classical colors and it will be from year to year harder to find dogs witout sable and witout partie colors (tis i searce by min 8-9 generations) in there pedigree.
Totally agree with this. I'm not a breeder but I can see that where there is a mix of parti and solid, a few generation later suddenly there's a pup with a white foot or a white nose :-\
I know how difficult it somethimes is to express youself in a different language as your own...
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I have wondered if there were any sables in the UK before they started being imported a few years ago, it seems odd that out of the thousands of cockers here we didn't have any :-\.
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i have been told that sables were born 1932 but most of them were not registered or they were registered under another colour !
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I've often wondered if sable is a naturally occurring colour in Cockers, that's always been there under the radar, why it's not been seen in working lines. As far as I know, there's not been a sable Working Cocker and yet every other colour/pattern can be seen in working lines (even if some are not common). You'd have thought a dominant colour pattern like sable would have popped up somewhere along the line and yet it hasn't so far :-\
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I hope it stops these opportunistic breeders, there's one charging £1,500 now :-\.
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I hope it stops these opportunistic breeders, there's one charging £1,500 now :-\.
Agree with you Cayley but while some eejit pays it, they'll keep breeding >:(
;)
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I hope it stops these opportunistic breeders, there's one charging £1,500 now :-\.
Agree with you Cayley but while some eejit pays it, they'll keep breeding >:(
;)
We have 2 cocker spaniels Belle who is Sable Roan and Kayla who is a Chocolate Sable and I must defend their breeder and say that she doesn't charge anything like £1500. She has been breeding for around 30 years and started breeding the colour through the love of the colour and not for money. :-\ When I went to visit the litter I did'nt even know what the sable looked liked but totally fell for the colour.
I realise there will be people out their doing it for money but that is not the case here. I must admit I feel a bit sorry for the way the colour is spoken about. :'(
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I hope it stops these opportunistic breeders, there's one charging £1,500 now :-\.
Agree with you Cayley but while some eejit pays it, they'll keep breeding >:(
;)
We have 2 cocker spaniels Belle who is Sable Roan and Kayla who is a Chocolate Sable and I must defend their breeder and say that she doesn't charge anything like £1500. She has been breeding for around 30 years and started breeding the colour through the love of the colour and not for money. :-\ When I went to visit the litter I did'nt even know what the sable looked liked but totally fell for the colour.
I realise there will be people out their doing it for money but that is not the case here. I must admit I feel a bit sorry for the way the colour is spoken about. :'(
My comment wasn't aimed at you or your breeder sandie ;) I don't have any idea who your breeder is & sounds like you are more than happy with her breeding ethics - your two are adorable by the way :luv: :luv: Sorry if my comment offended you :-*
Personally I have nothing against the colour - in fact I think it's very stunning. My comment was made in ref to the breeders who do jump on the band wagon to make financial gain for what is only a cocker spaniel at the end of the day - it's colour maybe unique & different but does that warrant the price tag that some are asking??
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We have 2 cocker spaniels Belle who is Sable Roan and Kayla who is a Chocolate Sable and I must defend their breeder and say that she doesn't charge anything like £1500. She has been breeding for around 30 years and started breeding the colour through the love of the colour and not for money. :-\ When I went to visit the litter I did'nt even know what the sable looked liked but totally fell for the colour.
I realise there will be people out their doing it for money but that is not the case here. I must admit I feel a bit sorry for the way the colour is spoken about. :'(
For what its worth i think its a beautiful colour :luv: & your dogs look fab :luv:
I think its a terrible shame the KC have decided to now not recognise the colour. :-\
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I hope it stops these opportunistic breeders, there's one charging £1,500 now :-\.
Agree with you Cayley but while some eejit pays it, they'll keep breeding >:(
;)
We have 2 cocker spaniels Belle who is Sable Roan and Kayla who is a Chocolate Sable and I must defend their breeder and say that she doesn't charge anything like £1500. She has been breeding for around 30 years and started breeding the colour through the love of the colour and not for money. :-\ When I went to visit the litter I did'nt even know what the sable looked liked but totally fell for the colour.
I realise there will be people out their doing it for money but that is not the case here. I must admit I feel a bit sorry for the way the colour is spoken about. :'(
The well bred ones are the same price as all the other colours :blink:.
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I have a sable to... a Goldsable and didn't have to pay more than the normal prices So there are more sane breeders, but heard some breeder ask something like 1500 euros...... ridiculous >:(
Eventhought it's a lovely dog you have in Belle, Sandie72, it's a roan and a solid mixed and that's what makes me worry (in showline)
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Hi Linseyp, Not at all offended by your comments. :D I absolutely looooove my cockers and they have a fantastic temperament. To be honest I have come across quite a lot of controversy about the colour but since I don't intend breeding or showing then I am not that concerned.
My groomer has solid black cockers and does very well showing (qualified for crufts next year) and she is not keen on the colour due to it coming through into the solid lines (which I can totally understand)
Must admit though on spending time with Belle she cant praise their easygoing nature enough. :luv: :luv: :luv:
Oh and Belle sits her silver award and Kayla her bronze next week one after another...I am gonna be a quivering wreck. :013:
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We have 2 cocker spaniels Belle who is Sable Roan and Kayla who is a Chocolate Sable and I must defend their breeder and say that she doesn't charge anything like £1500. She has been breeding for around 30 years and started breeding the colour through the love of the colour and not for money. :-\ When I went to visit the litter I did'nt even know what the sable looked liked but totally fell for the colour.
I realise there will be people out their doing it for money but that is not the case here. I must admit I feel a bit sorry for the way the colour is spoken about. :'(
For what its worth i think its a beautiful colour :luv: & your dogs look fab :luv:
I think its a terrible shame the KC have decided to now not recognise the colour. :-\
Thank you. ;)
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This is something which I wish someone could explain. Beautiful sable dogs, yes, but where did this colour come from?
I maybe wrong, and I just know other COL members will advise me but when you look at the old books there is no mention of sable. If you breed from the standard colours in any mating I just don't see how we get sable. I have been an avid reader of the old books and have been following the shows since I was in my twenty's and I'm now 58. I know, how sad! :embarassed: About 8 years ago I stopped going to shows due to my late wife's illness and I had to go on kidney dialysis as well. Over a year ago I had a transplant and then I started going to the shows again. At the very first show I had to ask an exhibitor what colour was a particular dog as I had never seen it before and was told it was a sable.
I don't suppose it would be etiquette in COL to ask but I certainly would like to see the pedigree of an original KC registered sable and then some geneticist explain how this came about.
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the color comes from england through a dog sold as black and tan and exported to the Squiers Kennel in USA (although sold as black & tan, this dog was a sable). He was the male Elmbury Cinnamon Teal, born 16.01.76 breed by mr. roger hall-jones. his pedigree >> http://www.gloriette-artemis.net/wikipedi/english-cocker-spaniel/gb/dog_4805.html (http://www.gloriette-artemis.net/wikipedi/english-cocker-spaniel/gb/dog_4805.html)
he was the father from the sables in europe.
mr. james mel phillips, dated 1938, published in the jornal of hederdity #29 write abaut the sables and the sable gene.
most the sables in england was disappeard becaus the color was not like. it was a wrong color and often noned as bad black and tan. in usa the sabels was registratet. hosking's nancy (1930), gypsie (1934), the pied piper of fieldhead ( 1938), zipper's sable boots (1939), pete hold (1941) and the sisters sable boomer and sable brock.
in this time the sable was a random product. also the scheduled sable breed stard in the 70th with the dogs from dirk squiere
The breed in germany stard 1985 with the dogs Squier's Litle Surprise and Squier's Squier's Secret Wonder im kennel vom Heidebusch. the dogs come after this two bitches start her trip around europe and the world. i be realy shure that all sable puppes who born today in europe, the solids and the roan sables, have one of this two bitches in her pedigree.
you can read the article from mr. james phillips here >>>http://www.cocker-colours.com/james_mel_phillips_1938.html (http://www.cocker-colours.com/james_mel_phillips_1938.html)
that is the quick story abaut the sables ;)
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Now I love the Sable colouring so am not setting out to offend anyone , but from what I read from this thread and limited references from the web, I take it that the Sable colour is a 'rogue' and therefore 'undesirable' colour, which is why I presume there were previously not many around as they were not bred from (like white boxers, gsd etc). In more current time where unusual becomes 'desirable' then they have been bred from again. Is this it in a nutshell or have I got it all wrong?
With the KC no longer regarding it as a recognised colour does that mean that breeding from Sables should be discouraged? Would the colour be considered a fault therfore make succeesful showing practically impossible (like a solid black having mismarked white?) Sorry for all the questions but that is how I see the situation but not sure if I am understanding it correctly :huh:
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in germany it is sable since 1986 one color from the solid colors and accept as a solid cocker spaniel. the new form is the sable roan. this color is since 1,5 or two years in germany and is one of the partie colors.
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What will be , will be where it comes to our new breed standard colour list . It may make a few waves in Europe though as sable has already been accepted in the FCI ....
Anyone can show a sable but if it's considered undesirable in the breed standard I guess judges will " take points away " for the colour when it comes to deciding which dogs are on the cards .
I think only sable minded enthusiastic judges will give sable a red rosette in a champ show if this all goes ahead and it's unlikely that there would ever be a UK sable show champion . The sable I bred became the 1st sable British bred Champion the moment he stepped on foreign soil ! he's now a champ in 2 countries and should go on to get his international champion title ,that says it all ! ;)
Red black and blue are generally the big winners and have donimated in the UK shows for years, liver seems to have been undesirable to most judges for years too , colours have never been very popular here and it's hard to change decades of opinion .
Its refreshing to go to a show abroad and see so many more colors being shown successfully . What really matters to me is the quality of the dog and as barely any conscientious exhibitors own sable there are few of show standard . The ones we see being bred mostly here are from pet homes or the new wave of hobby breeder who "show" once in a blue moon so they can say are exhibitors .
Let me say now I am not knocking them here .... each to their own ! but they breed pets , few would be looking at which stud would improve confirmation , or which bitch may throw a more classic head ,they generally breed their puppy's to create the sable colour... period .This pet market won't be affected by what may happen in the KC and its breeders have no say in the decision unless they are breed club members . It's the show scene in the UK that will be affected and with so few involved with sable there are few who care .
I have a gorgeous black boy to show so its no big deal to me that I can't show sable but quite honestly I have no plan to exhibit him in the UK again anyway , I find the show scene on the whole a bit undesirable :005:
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The sable I bred became the 1st sable British bred Champion the moment he stepped on foreign soil ! he's now a champ in 2 countries and should go on to get his international champion title ,that says it all ! ;)
That's lovely for you and his owner but of course it is very much easier to make up any colour in overseas countries simply because they have a very different system to ours - less dogs being shown usually and many more CACs/CACIBs etc on offer than we have (plus of course dogs do not have to beat currently shown Champions as happens here).
I also like to see different colours being shown - we have successfully shown minority colours here in the UK and will continue to do so even though it's sometimes quite challenging ;) I'm fairly ambivalent really to the whole sable controversy - I personally didn't vote to change the breed standard but clubs are run in a democratic way with the majority vote being carried which is as it should be. I just think it's sad that a few dedicated breeders of this colour pattern have had their efforts undermined by those who have exploited and are continuing to exploit it for commercial gain. I also wish as much passion could be demonstrated for health issues, type and temperament by some of the people currently making rather a lot of noise about sable (not aiming this at you of course as I know you have always taken health testing etc seriously)
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In the Netherlands the liver (roan) and sable aren't so desirable also.. Just ones in a while a liver, liverroan or sable will get first place. They get good showresults first place... :-\
Over here it's nine out of ten a blue roan which wins first place.
I don't like the atmosphere on shows... lots of hatred and envy >:( And with these two of mine I can only make a change on winning a photocompetitions ;) :005:
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I totally agree with you Jane ..... The numbers are quite low in classes abroad and all qualities of dogs shown . The judges often come from all over the world , rather than being fellow exhibitors in the breed which to me feels more real and fair . I preferred the more relaxed atmosphere I experienced too a bit like an open show here . However , I believe that one should follow the rules of the country we live in and respect the way decisions are made , or get out .
If this wording is brought into force and there is an outcry from the FCI and European breeders maybe that will force a rethink but a handful of exhibitors here certainly won't . As for Health issues ... don't get me started >:D... To me Germany ( VDH ) have got things right there with they're strict breeding regulations .
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If this wording is brought into force and there is an outcry from the FCI and European breeders maybe that will force a rethink but a handful of exhibitors here certainly won't . As for Health issues ... don't get me started >:D... To me Germany ( VDH ) have got things right there with they're strict breeding regulations .
Who knows what will happen but I don't think the FCI will want to interfere with a breed of British origin - they have always adopted the UK Kennel Club standards for British breeds generally. It would be like the UK Kennel Club demanding the FCI make changes to the standard of a breed of European (ie non British) origin ph34r
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I have just spoken to someone from the cocker club and they confirmed that Sable will no longer be a recognised colour in UK, the decision is already made. She said that she thinks it will be classed as a fault. I think that it is disgusting that a handful of self opionated people can make such a judgment and change the colours that are acceptable as they see fit. Does this mean that sable cockers worldwide are all now pretty much dismissed from the show ring?? what colour will be next?
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Just a reminder please for anybody contributing to this thread to please remain polite. On other social media sites, I've seen this debate being conducted in quite a combative and aggressive way whereas the discussion on this thread has been very polite - I hope it continues without any insults being hurled around ;) (and yes calling all voting members of the Cocker Spaniel Breed Council "a handful of self-opinionated people" is insulting, no matter how strongly you feel about the subject)
As far as treating as a fault goes, the Kennel Club has made it quite clear that no breed standard will ever contain "disqualifying faults" so it is not the case that sables will ever be dismissed or disqualified from the ring. The only things that can lead to a dog being excused from the ring by a judge are "savage disposition" or if it's "suffering from any visible condition which adversely affects its health or welfare"
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Jane,
I'm getting a bit confused about the consequences of breeding sable's. So please correct me if I'm wrong:
If I understand correctly sables will be are an unrecognized colour (and therefore will not get a pedigree). But sable is not a reason to disqualify? :huh:
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If I understand correctly sables will be are an unrecognized colour (and therefore will not get a pedigree). But sable is not a reason to disqualify? :huh:
That's not been established yet - we don't know whether it will be possible to still register sables after it is omitted from the list of desirable colours (they may still be allowed to be registered as "non standard colour" as happens in other breeds) This will need clarification from the Kennel Club.