CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: Steelygirl on May 25, 2011, 10:26:15 PM
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I'm sat here not crying, but completely numb with shock. I feel like i'm losing a battle that hasn't even begun yet.
Yesterday (as some of you may have seen from my Facebook) my wonderfully calm and patient Fred (apart from food aggression which we've had under control) snapped at my 11 month old daughter Emily. At the time i thought it was for no reason, but to protect him (and myself) i told myself that she must have spooked him... must have done something to set him off. He caught her face and although there was a lot of blood she is fine with 2 minor marks.
Yesterday - Fred was sat on the chair (he's not meant to be on, but when i'm off guard he and Minnie sneak on). Emily crawled towards him (he wasn't asleep and had a good eye view of her doing this) as she stood herself up Fred went for her face (aggressive air snapping i guess). I was in the same room on the settee opposite. I did not hear a warning growl.
I was going to make an appointment today with the vets to get him check out but havent had a minute to myself.
Today - I have been watching him today, (on tenterhooks when theyre both in the same room) as i noticed he growled at her today when she went near his bed (not crated). Obviously i removed emily from the situation and he moved himself to the other room. Later on today i sat on the floor with both dogs (minnie and fred) and then minnie went away in the other room. Emily started coming towards me and fred went to snap at her again. This completely shocked me, and has left me defending my best friend to all my friends, family and OH.
Emily has never hurt him, and does not 'pester' him (she's so used to being around him its almost as if she doesnt notice him), i also make sure she is never near him when he is eating, as i know that is his vulnerable spot. In the past he has been amazingly calm with her. Allowing her to stroke him and give him treats etc - if i thought anyone would snap at her, i would have thought Minnie, as she acts first and thinks later - whereas Fred is more a thinker and has an amazing temperament. When she was a baby he would rush over to her when we came home to check she was ok.
The only thing that has changed over the last 2 weeks is Minnie is no longer crated at night and also when i go out, - so i wonder if she is being top dog and bullying him more (which she is despite being the youngest) and he's taking it out on Emily. Or is it a straight jealousy issue? Jealous of him not being my baby anymore? (This seems strange as he's been brilliant up to now)
If the vet finds nothing physically wrong, everyone is saying i need to get rid of him (i cannot imagine even thinking about this, but then i cannot imagine how awful i would feel if this situation happens again and Emily is hurt).
Help.
PS If you've managed to get to the end of this, thank you x
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I am sooo sorry you have found yourself in this situation, the only advice I can give you as I no dog behavioural expert, is to keep them completely seperate until you see the vet. I know you are saying that you are always present but you have found out the hard way how quickly a dog can cause damage to a child, especially a baby. This may sound harsh but Emily is your priority she needs to be kept from danger, you are responsible for her safety as she is unable to maintain her own safe environment. Our Belle is the same as Fred around food and I feed her away from the children etc and the children know how she is with food and so it is under control, However Evie is just 6 mths and just starting to notice the dogs, I havent realky encouraged interaction as I am funny about germs and babies ph34r. There will be a time however when she will be interacting with them and I could be in your shoes :-\. I absolutely love her to bits and Monty too but my childrens welfare and safety comes first and always will. I truly hope that the Vet can pinpoint a physical reason for this otherwise regardless of behaviourists etc you will not be able to have them together again as you will not be able to trust him around her. Reading this back it sounds harsh and I really don't mean to be I am just concerned for Emilys safety as of course you are, I really hope there is a happy outcome to this, take care :luv: Jo
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regardless of behaviourists etc you will noy be able to have them together again.
That was the one thing i didnt want to hear, but i appreciate your honesty. It goes without saying Emily is my priority, i guess i am hoping for some kind of miracle, and feel like i'm in a dream i guess.
Thanks again for your honest opinion, it means a lot x
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I don't think you need to be panicking at this stage that you will never be able to have Fred near Emily again - that's certainly the best advice for now but it's certainly not necessarily a permanent thing. Have you read any of Hurtwood Dogs' posts on managing dogs with very young children? I don't have time to find a thread now but if you do a search, you should be able to find some threads (or Hannah will be on here later to help you). Remember that some dogs can find babies quite scary as they start to crawl and move about - I don't know how long Emily has been crawling but that may be a factor here - dogs can become quite reactive when they're scared or just feel threatened.
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Thanks Jane, will have a search.
Got a vets appointment at 5.20pm to rule out physical causes.
Emily's been crawling for about 4 months now, so not a sudden thing. I do think he was being possessive about being on the chair, and i think it was a jealousy thing yesterday - which due to his behaviour that day may mean he was on adrenaline/hyped up already due to the previous day.
This morning he has been back to normal soft Fred. I have no idea how to feel at the moment.
Has anyone else been in this situation and NOT rehomed their dog?
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Good luck at the vets. Hopefully it won't come to rehoming and the vet can come up with a Physical cause (not wishing pain or illness on Fred of course but you know what I mean). IF it does boil down to a behavioural issue then only you can say whether you will be able to manage to keep the 2 apart safely.
I don't think you need to be panicking at this stage that you will never be able to have Fred near Emily again - that's certainly the best advice for now but it's certainly not necessarily a permanent thing. Have you read any of Hurtwood Dogs' posts on managing dogs with very young children? I don't have time to find a thread now but if you do a search, you should be able to find some threads (or Hannah will be on here later to help you). Remember that some dogs can find babies quite scary as they start to crawl and move about - I don't know how long Emily has been crawling but that may be a factor here - dogs can become quite reactive when they're scared or just feel threatened.
As to keeping babies and pups apart I am an expert in that field ;)(5 children and always had dogs ;) but keeping bitey teething pups away from babies is a totally different thing to dealing with a dog that has 'snapped' at a child for no apparant reason and has drawn blood. I am not trying to alarm or distress you as you are obviously distressed enough but I wouldn't dismiss it as 'it will be better when she is walking/older' we have all seen far to many stories. Good luck and keep us updated, hopefully someone will be along later with a similar story with a positive outcome ;) :luv:
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Many years ago we had a JRT who bit our son on the face pretty hard, he still has a small scar. He was just walking so was about 1 and had toddled into the dog who snappped at him. We spent all night discussing what to do and put a number of things in place and the first one was separation only letting them together when we could fully supervise. We stopped the dog going on the sofa as he was at the perfect height to snap at the face. I also cut his walks down a bit as I was in the habit of taking him out for hours and he was really tired and that made him grumpy. For us it worked and even though he never 'loved' the children he grew to tolerate them and as the kids grew it became easier. I am not a fan of dogs and small toddlers spending hardly any time together personally. Our daughter lives with us with her three children 18 months, 4 and 5 and the time they spend with the dogs is managed as we have two very young dogs and I don't trust the kids or the dogs to always behave themselves. I Hope you find a solution.
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sounds like he was resource guarding the chair Heather. You will have to manage this so carefully until your daughter is older as the behaviour could generalise to other situations.
It may be prudent to introduce a muzzle (but gradually in a positive way) and supervise any interactions very very carefully for a very long time. you must also try and educate your daughter as she gets older to keep her safe round dogs.
Have you ever heard of the blue dog?
http://www.thebluedog.org
Are you getting bloods done at the vets? Are you insured for behavioural work?
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Please don't lose heart, I have been in a similar situation with my Rott and my DD, basically my rott is a mummy's boy and I became his most valuable resource. (yes I made a rod for my own back and hindsight is a marvellous thing) My DD was about 10 when Ozzy first decided to snap at her, he made her hand bleed. I got in a behaviourist who helped us so much. Maybe your boy is jealous over your DD, I know she is so much younger than my daughter was but it can be managed. I'm sure you are but be extra vigilant with them. Btw is your boy castrated as this was one of the behaviourists recommendations and it in it's self made a huge difference to our situation.
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I am not trying to alarm or distress you as you are obviously distressed enough but I wouldn't dismiss it as 'it will be better when she is walking/older' we have all seen far to many stories.
I certainly wasn't "dismissing" it or suggesting it would be easy but certainly it is possible to carefully manage situations like this so both children and dog are kept safe and happy (as Mark1 illustrates above). But of course as you say only Steelygirl knows whether she can do this within her own family set-up.
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Didn't suggest you were dismissing it ;) but Hannahs posts are about keeping bitey hyper pups away from children , not dealing with a dog that has snapped without provocation on more than one occasion, Hannahs posts will help she always has good advice ;) but I was just pointing out that this situation is very different :-\
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Didn't suggest you were dismissing it ;) but Hannahs posts are about keeping bitey hyper pups away from children , not dealing with a dog that has snapped without provocation on more than one occasion, Hannahs posts will help she always has good advice ;) but I was just pointing out that this situation is very different :-\
Ah right, got the wrong end of the stick as you quoted from my reply ph34r Agree the situation is different but the management techniques (separation etc) would still be appropriate and useful here.
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Didn't suggest you were dismissing it ;) but Hannahs posts are about keeping bitey hyper pups away from children , not dealing with a dog that has snapped without provocation on more than one occasion, Hannahs posts will help she always has good advice ;) but I was just pointing out that this situation is very different :-\
Ah right, got the wrong end of the stick as you quoted from my reply ph34r Agree the situation is different but the management techniques (separation etc) would still be appropriate and useful here.
Definately worth reading ;)
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We have been dealing with agression and anxiety issues with Tucker since we brought him home almost two years ago. He is a lovely dog but is very anxious and high-strung and exhibits strong guarding behaviours. We have been working with our vet and a trainer to learn how to deal with Tucker's behavioural problems. He has made serious progress and we are very proud of him - this has been a learning process for us. Tucker has never snapped unprovoked (any time he has snapped it has been due to guarding) which makes it a little easier for us, I suppose, but I would still never 100% trust any dog with my child. Our son's high energy and activity level seems to increase Tucker's anxiety so we try to make sure that our son is calm when he is spending time with the dog and we seperate/supervise them the rest of the time. At 10, we have been able to educate our son so he knows exactly how to deal with Tucker. The only real advice I can give is to work closely with your vet (and a trainer if possible) and keep the dog and child apart if necessary until things get better. We are very glad we never gave up on Tucker even though he continues to be a work in progress.
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Back from the vets with lots to think about. Vet examined and found no physical reason, until he took his temperature and it was 104. So... the vets advice is antib's, then maybe take bloods later. I asked (as for me getting started on a solution both physical and mental promptly is what i need) to get bloods done today. So i get results back of bloods tomorrow and he's taking antibs for the next week.
The vets opinion is that he was 'probably very grumpy due to feeling ill, like we would be if we had flu' and thinks that as he's not usually a growly/aggressive dog/with issues, once he's feeling better he's probably ok, and if not to go down the behavourist route then, but to obviously keep Emily and Fred apart from each other until then (er - yeah, thought that would go without saying!).
Can i just say in Freds defence (maybe misguided, who knows) that neither attacks can be classed as unprovoked. Although Emily did not provoke him per se, in his eyes like Mark said, resource guarding the chair, and then me could class as a trigger.
I however, feel that although the temperature may be a cause of it, i also think the resource guarding may be an issue and will be asking for recommendations for a trainer - if anyone can point me in the right direction?? Maybe Fred does resource guard (as he has with food in the past) and that feeling ill 'tipped him over the edge' into reacting, whereas normally he wouldn't...so maybe usually he does have a problem but deals with it when he's feeling ok, so maybe an underlying issue that still needs to be addressed IYSWIM)?
I feel a bit better now, a little chink of light. I WILL definately persevere and try whatever i can. Fred is already castrated, and insured (need to check to see if it covers behaviour - if not, then I'd throw whatever money is needed into it, as Fred is my family and deserves all the help we can get him.)
Thanks for your replies. I guess Emily being young makes it harder to manage. I grew up with aggressive (through fear) rescue dogs from the age of 8, but at least at that age you can be educated in what to do/not to do around a dog.
Thanks for all your replies. They are appreciated a LOT.
Heather x
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Didn't suggest you were dismissing it ;) but Hannahs posts are about keeping bitey hyper pups away from children , not dealing with a dog that has snapped without provocation on more than one occasion, Hannahs posts will help she always has good advice ;) but I was just pointing out that this situation is very different :-\
Ah right, got the wrong end of the stick as you quoted from my reply ph34r Agree the situation is different but the management techniques (separation etc) would still be appropriate and useful here.
Definately worth reading ;)
Am searching as we speak! I've also moved his bed from next to her bouncer to a quieter place in the room, and may bring his cage back as a safe place for him. Think the childgates maybe used a bit more too for the time being!
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Guarding the chair (and you) would certainly be considered resource guarding, at least in my experience. Tucker has gone through phases where he has seen fit to guard me, his bed, his toys, his food, the cupboard where his food is kept, etc. Our trainer and vet feel that his guarding stems from anxiety and OCD conditions - made worse by a crazy 10 year old running around constantly. :happydance:
We know that this is something that will probably never go away completely - we have a great support team in our vet and trainer and we do our best to cover all options to make Tucker as healthy and secure as possible. We have found that the right food (a limited ingredient diet), tons of exercise and mental stimulation, and a calm environment have done wonders for Tucker. We can not give him certain toys or treats that are high value unless we are sure that he can enjoy them in peace. We also know that certain environments tend to stress him out and inherently cause him to be more "guardy". We have made mistakes but we have also worked hard to make Tucker part of our family.
If you follow your vet's advice, work with a trainer, and teach your child from a very young age how to interact with the pup I think you will be fine. It's not ideal, of course, having a dog with these kinds of issues however Tucker makes up for it by giving more love and affection than I've ever seen in a dog!!! I think that, for every challenge we've faced with him, he has rewarded us two-fold. It's worth it. Best of luck to you and I hope all is better soon. :bigarmhug:
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My first cocker was 18mths old when I had my first child and although she didn't growl in the beginning she was less than impressed when she realised he was here to stay. She decided that she would prefer to take herself off to her bed in the kitchen rather than follow me around / sit next to me as she had always done in the past. She did growl at him once when it was our teatime. we always ate in the kitchen and although we didn't encourage begging from her she was in the same room. I had put my 4mth old in one of those bouncy cradles and brought him to the table but put him at my feet. Bonnie growled, and I believe she thought he was begging too and was pretty much telling him she would be getting first dabs on any scraps. I told her off and made a mental note that a dog sees the situation differently so I wouldn't repeat that. She was fine again after that until he started crawling and if he went passed the kitchen door she would do a low growl as if to say "bog off there's nothing in here for you, except my bed, my water and my food which you are not having". I reprimanded her again verbally and removed my son from any danger. I got that way that it was safer to shut Bonnie in the kitchen when the children were crawling or I had friends round with children and she preferred it tbh. She never did anymore than grumble and I always tried to divert situations that I could see would stress her. She continued to grumble at each of my children until they were about 3 max. I always instilled in them the need to leave the dog alone and to move away if she growled and I always followed a growl up with a verbal reprimand. She was fine outside, and she was fine if we all went for a walk but something about the children when they were really young unsettled her. As they got older she stopped, probably because they could give commands she could understand and obey and they were no longer seen as a threat, and more of a way of getting extra food. The children never stopped loving Bonnie and thought of her with great fondness but we did have to allow her her own space so she felt safe.
Don't know if that helps, on the whole Bonnie was a gentle natured dog but she just wasn't into children like most cockers are and it took a little getting used to and adjustments had to be made to keep everyone safe.
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Back from the vets with lots to think about. Vet examined and found no physical reason, until he took his temperature and it was 104. So... the vets advice is antib's, then maybe take bloods later. I asked (as for me getting started on a solution both physical and mental promptly is what i need) to get bloods done today. So i get results back of bloods tomorrow and he's taking antibs for the next week.
Hope the antib's kick in soon and Fred is soon feeling more his usual self - a high temperature would certainly make him feel very off-colour and more inclined to tip him over the edge re the resource guarding. Once he's feeling better, hopefully Top Barks may be able to recommend someone in your area (Sheffield?) who could work on Fred's guarding issues with you.
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Glad there did appear to be some physical reason to trigger his response, hope you will be able to get some good behavioural advice and help now, take care :luv: Jo
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Well the vet has just rang, and it wasn't just a high temperature. Blood resukts have shown lots of stuff (I couldn't take it all in). The one thing i did hear was Kidney and blood problem (high bilirubin) and an ALT result of 365 (normal should be 5) which means liver damage.
I have no idea what this all means, but he has to have the blood tests repeated next Friday.
I am completely devasted, even more so than when he originally snapped, as i feel like i was wishing him to be ill so we had it as an excuse as to why he snapped :'(
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:bigarmhug: :bigarmhug: :bigarmhug: for you and Fred :luv:
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so sorry to hear about Fred's results :-* :-*
If you are confused about what the vet was telling you I would call him back and maybe have a pen and paper ready.
Big hugs to you and Fred :bigarmhug: :bigarmhug: :bigarmhug:
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I'm so sorry to hear about Fred - I agree with Emma - contact the vet and explain you were a bit in shock when you spoke to him and ask him to clarify, in laymans terms, Fred's illness and what the levels mean.
When I read your thread I hoped too that there was a trigger for Fred's behaviour but I didn't want him to be ill IYSWIM :'( :'(
Positive and healing thoughts being sent to lovely Fred :luv: and a :bigarmhug: for you.
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Just called the vet back and i got it wrong, Kidneys were ok.
White blood cell count was ok too which he thought strange with how high Freds temperature was. Its the Liver cell damage / ALT result that is the concern.
He says wait for antib's to kick in see what happens there, then more bloods tests next Friday. Then more than likely a liver function test instead of the more invasive liver biopsy.
Will keep updating the more i know. Its making the snapping pale into insignificance now (and that doesn't make me a bad mum, Emily always comes first) The good news is that yesterday and today he's been waggy around her (not close enough without me being in control of things) and although i will continue to be hypervigilant, i'm less worried about his behaviour than before.
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:bigarmhug:'s for you and gentle squidges for Fred :luv:
What a few days you've had :'( really hope the antibiotics can sort Fred out and he's back to your gentle waggy boy very soon :luv:
xx
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Poor Fred :'( Fingers crossed it's something that's easily treatable :luv:
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Poor Fred, I hope he is on the mend soon. He must have felt poorly hence his snapping at your little girl :bigarmhug: :bigarmhug: for all of you.
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:bigarmhug:Sending You and Fred massive big cyber hugs... :bigarmhug:
I really hope the abs work and he feels better soon and doesnt need anything more invasive than blood tests done to him next week...
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So sorry to see you and Fred are going through such a tough time. Everything crossed that the antibiotics do the trick.
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I've been following your thread Heather, with a feeling of sadness for you all - with young babies/children & dogs in our house too, I understand the importance of them all getting along & felt for you when reading your original post :'( :'(
I am so relieved to hear there was something wrong with Fred that left him totally out of character - with the right meds & treatment, I really hope you get your boy back to his usual self soon & he proves to you, that all will be as it was before :angel: :luv:
......maybe he was giving off subtle signals, that he wasn't too well before this episode with your baby :dunno:
will keep all paws crossed for some good news soon - hugs to you all & hope you fell better, now you know roughly what you're dealing with :luv: :bigarmhug: :luv:
Lindsey x :-*
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What a worrying few days for you :embarassed: I really hope things improve and Fred will be back to his normal self, happy and healthy :luv: :luv:
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Emily's been crawling for about 4 months now, so not a sudden thing.
yes but I'll bet she's getting faster and has more confidence than before
we expect a lot more of our dogs than we should sometimes and need to work harder to avoid situations
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Emily's been crawling for about 4 months now, so not a sudden thing.
yes but I'll bet she's getting faster and has more confidence than before
we expect a lot more of our dogs than we should sometimes and need to work harder to avoid situations
Couldn't agree more. Whatever the reason for his outburst, it's certainly made me take stock and think more from Freds point of view x
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Sorry to hear of your trumas :luv: i do hope things now improve that he is taking the antibiotics, and hope all goes well with his lives results :luv:
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Emily's been crawling for about 4 months now, so not a sudden thing.
yes but I'll bet she's getting faster and has more confidence than before
we expect a lot more of our dogs than we should sometimes and need to work harder to avoid situations
Couldn't agree more. Whatever the reason for his outburst, it's certainly made me take stock and think more from Freds point of view x
Thing is not to panic though and hopefully you'll get there with the right advice from those who've been through it.
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Oh god what an emotional roller coaster for you :o :'( :'(
I just wanted to say that you are a great mum (cocker and human ;)) some people would not have looked into the reasons for his behaviour and done something hasty or horrible :'(. Lots of positive thoughts for Fred :-* :-*.