CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: The Waltons on June 12, 2011, 09:40:52 AM
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Hi there need some advice if i may,
Milo just over one & entire, lovely cocker but just recently he is growling more , at the young children but sometimes all of us. I do keep him separate some of the day, at noisy periods, food times & when milo needs some space. he has his bed in the utility & can see us in the kitchen. I have a big family & realise the possiblity of them teasing Milo & keep a close eye on that. but on the whole they are very good with Milo & he loves them.
Yesterday when Milo was in his bed he had a treat chew, which i do not buy often, anyway he growled & went for my youngest who is 3 , good job Milo was behind the stair gate, he growls even if they go near his bed or walk past him. He doesnt do this all time but yesterday more so, Dont know if he would actually bite them but i think he would. He is very very sorry afterwards , we just shout at him & say NO, & ignore him, but is this the right thing to do ? is he just trying to be the boss ?
Im not going to give a chew at present as he guards them too much. He is definately better with adults or older children which i certainly understand, as little children can be too much & noisey. We have owned him from 12 weeks old.
any advice appreciated , we love him dearly & is a very big part of our family, want to take the best action for all of us.
jo.
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Has it happened since he had the bad experience at the vets, i wonder if its got something to do with that , i would get him checked out at the vets again, BUT not the same vet as she sounded awful
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Hi, no he has been growling before that.
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my only suggestion would be to get him to associate the children with something pleasant - could you get the little ones to throw treats though the baby gate (obviously with them not close enough for him to get through the gate)?
other than that i would just avoid letting him have anything that he is likely to guard (obviously other than his bed).
I am sure others will be along with other suggestions- but i think you are right in keeping the gate between Milo and the children.
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Not lots of advice but don't tell him off for growling. Its his way of saying that he isn't happy and its a signal for you to change whatever is happening. If you tell him off for growling and the situation continues he may resort to biting if he isn't able to give a warning sound to show his discomfort.
I have a fear aggressive dog and she is actively encourage to growl if she is uncomfortable as I can then change whatever is happening and she doesn't feel the need to bite first and ask questions after.
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Your dog isn't trying to be the boss, nor does he love the children... he also isn't sorry and doesn't know he has done wrong. These are all human concepts which a dog has no understanding of. ;)
I would really recommend getting a good behaviourist (not one who is still taken in by "dominance" issues, as they have been pretty much discreditted) in to observe him in your home - it sounds like he is stressed by some aspects of the busy family life, and this is being communicated to you by the resource guarding (both of chews and of bed) as well as general unpredictability. I am sure that with a few ground rules on all sides Milo will settle down and you will have your lovable pet back... He is in the throws of adolescence, so his personality is changing, and it could be that things would settle down anyway, but with children in the house it really isn't worth the risk, and professional guidance now could save you (and him) a lot of heartache in the future.
In the meantime, it sounds like you have a fairly good set-up with gates to keep him out of the way of the children... you could also get the children to hand feed him (under close supervision) to help him view them as a good thing!!!
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Not lots of advice but don't tell him off for growling. Its his way of saying that he isn't happy and its a signal for you to change whatever is happening. If you tell him off for growling and the situation continues he may resort to biting if he isn't able to give a warning sound to show his discomfort.
I have a fear aggressive dog and she is actively encourage to growl if she is uncomfortable as I can then change whatever is happening and she doesn't feel the need to bite first and ask questions after.
I agree with this. We had a dog who was told off for growling and it only caused his behaviour to escalate - this is a very good article about the importance of growling: http://www.peaceablepaws.com/articles.php?subaction=showfull&id=1282173843&archive&start_from&ucat=1&type=Pat
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I think it just boils down to luck..With your dog...Are Peggy phoos just growled once at are grand children and we took the bone of her..She has never done it again...(the same with her food)...(other may disagree with are metered for doing so)And ALL are Gran children can play with her..Megan are youngest G.C will come in say Hi ya and make a Bee line straight to Peggy phoos EVEN while she is fast asleep..She may be starkled a bit BUT she would not not bite(just rolls on her back for a belly rub)...Its just are luck we have been blessed with a wonderful well tempered animal as to are Peggy phoos and also are Golden retriever getting a bit grumpy now but she is getting on a bit 11 years old...
I think it may go back to the litter if there was a lot of pups or not competing at the milk bar and also when they was all eating out the same dog bawl....mite have some thing to do with it!!!! I do not know it just mite be....
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Hi, I do understand, I too have a large family 5 chilren, so not quite as big as yours and 2 Cockers, Belle went through a stage like this particulary with my son Tom, there was no explanation for it as far as I am aware, he would growl if he saw him, growl if he passed him etc etc. So I would give Tom a handful of treats for his pocket, he would get Belle to sit and then give her a treat, he did this before she had the chance to growl if that makes sense, within a week they were best of friends. I would suggest something similar to you and avoid the chews. He needs to associate the children with treats and nice things. Always be around at first though as you don't want him to be rewarded for the growling. I would also suggest getting the kids to help with training to, yet again more treats, if he is anything like my 2 who love their food , it will build up that positive association ;)
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Hi, I do understand, I too have a large family 5 chilren, so not quite as big as yours and 2 Cockers, Belle went through a stage like this particulary with my son Tom, there was no explanation for it as far as I am aware, he would growl if he saw him, growl if he passed him etc etc. So I would give Tom a handful of treats for his pocket, he would get Belle to sit and then give her a treat, he did this before she had the chance to growl if that makes sense, within a week they were best of friends. I would suggest something similar to you and avoid the chews. He needs to associate the children with treats and nice things. Always be around at first though as you don't want him to be rewarded for the growling. I would also suggest getting the kids to help with training to, yet again more treats, if he is anything like my 2 who love their food , it will build up that positive association ;)
There is a lady along the canel(Sibel) that has a ginger Cocker called Cila...Ever time i tried to touch her she just back way away from me..Another lady who i walk with over the park Cilia would come straight up to for the tip bit she give Cila...So i started to do the same with a boinio...She would just look on at a distance at me so i throw the bonio getting nearer and nearer overtime i saw them out together....now if cilia see me over the park she will come straight to me....Not interested in me one bit but for the boino..But i can touch her more than i could some time ago....So what you are saying does work after a time...Chris
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I really appreciate how worrying this is but this is a very common problem This page: http://www.thegundogclub.co.uk/Reference/health/behaviour/resourceguarding/foodabout.htm (http://www.thegundogclub.co.uk/Reference/health/behaviour/resourceguarding/foodabout.htm)
Is one of the most visited pages on the GC website
The key to fixing resource guarding is to convince the dog that anyone approaching him is well intentioned. Some dogs take more convincing than others, but most can be convinced with help :) .
It is really important not to stop him growling by intimidating him, because growling gives you, your children and your visitors some warning. If you try and stop the growling he may eventually bite without any warning at all.
Hope the article helps, but seeking the advice of a suitable behaviourist who follows the principles above, would be even better.
Pippa
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I really appreciate how worrying this is but this is a very common problem This page: http://www.thegundogclub.co.uk/Reference/health/behaviour/resourceguarding/foodabout.htm (http://www.thegundogclub.co.uk/Reference/health/behaviour/resourceguarding/foodabout.htm)
Is one of the most visited pages on the GC website
The key to fixing resource guarding is to convince the dog that anyone approaching him is well intentioned. Some dogs take more convincing than others, but most can be convinced with help :) .
It is really important not to stop him growling by intimidating him, because growling gives you, your children and your visitors some warning. If you try and stop the growling he may eventually bite without any warning at all.
Hope the article helps, but seeking the advice of a suitable behaviorist who follows the principles above, would be even better.
Pippa
From the Webb site above.....
WARNING - A DOG BITE EVEN FROM A PUPPY CAN BE VERY NASTY. IF POSSIBLE, AVOID TOUCHING A GROWLING PUPPY WHILST HE IS EATING, OR ALLOWING ANYONE ELSE TO DO SO. WE ADVISE YOU ALSO HAVE YOUR PUPPY CHECKED OVER BY YOUR VET TO EXCLUDE ANY HEALTH RELATED REASONS FOR HIS GROWLING.
This will upset others But this is from My opinion opinion only...
As i have said in my post above...I have taken food and bones away from Both are dogs when they weer both young...Peggy in now going on Five (the cocker) and Cindy is eleven....and neither dogs have ever growled at the children....May be what i done is wrong ...But it has worked....
How often do you hear when the pups are a bit older they snarl and Growel at each other while eating there puppy food....What is the awnser.....To feed every puppy separately!!!!Its every pup for him self and only the fittest servive..But it us that intervene and will take one greedy puppy out or of the tit to put the one being pushed out!!!back in... am i wrong in saying this!!!
It also goes on to say have your vet check over to Exclude any health related reasons for growling..(Do we not pay these blood sucking vampires enough as it is To tell us what we already know......My opinion only...
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seaangler
- in cases where a dog is growling (especially if it is a new behaviour) it is vital to get the dog checked out by the vet - you just need to look at Steelygirl's thread recently on here where her dog snapped at her baby and it turned out he was ill. There have been other members who have discovered their dog's "behaviour issues" were caused by pain/illness - it really is worth double checking, even if it does cost you money (is saving the cost of the vet fee really worth the risk of a bitten child?)
You keep telling people what you did with Peggy and Cindy, but professional advice does not back you up on the idea that taking the item away from a guarding pup is the way to solve the issue - I'm very glad it worked for you, but for another dog it could have created far worse problems. You can't tell what impact doing this will have in until you do it, so it's safest to follow the advice of respected behaviour experts... ;) And sorry, but I don't actually follow the point you are trying to make about puppies guarding food from each other... :huh:
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I understand fully as to what you mean as i said my opinion only....
Quote...And sorry, but I don't actually follow the point you are trying to make about puppies guarding food from each other...
How often your self must have seen it more than one time...When puppies are feeding Either in one big bowl or separately..The squabbling growling an snapping at each other that is going on between them all...
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How often your self must have seen it more than one time...When puppies are feeding Either in one big bowl or separately..The squabbling growling an snapping at each other that is going on between them all...
I'm not sure this is common with well-fed litters - our puppies are always too intent on eating their share of the grub to waste time squabbling with their litter mates. I'd be quite worried if there was the level of "scrapping" you describe routinely going on over food :-\
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This will upset others
I am sorry if anyone is offended by the warning to avoid touching a growling puppy. On balance think it is more important to avoid children being bitten than it is to avoid upsetting adults reading a forum post.
these blood sucking vampires
I acknowledge that veterinary treatment can be expensive, but do not share your view of vets, my vet is an important part of my dogs’ lives, and all the members of my local practice are supportive, considerate and dedicated to their jobs. I usually recommend that people insure their dogs to avoid heart rending decisions over expensive treatment.
To tell us what we already know......
We know what we are observing but not always the cause. It is always important when a dog shows signs of aggression to ensure that it is in good health. This is because there can sometimes be an underlying cause such as thyroid problems, which is the source of the bad behaviour.
Pippa
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How often your self must have seen it more than one time...When puppies are feeding Either in one big bowl or separately..The squabbling growling an snapping at each other that is going on between them all...
I'm not sure this is common with well-fed litters - our puppies are always too intent on eating their share of the grub to waste time squabbling with their litter mates. I'd be quite worried if there was the level of "scrapping" you describe routinely going on over food :-\
...We will agree and disagree..In the farming industry i get to see lot of litters at farms.And an alfull lot of squabbling goes on... during feeding time...
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..We will agree and disagree..In the farming industry i get to see lot of litters at farms.And an alfull lot of squabbling goes on... during feeding time...
Well that's probably down to the way these farm litters are reared and also down to the breed to some extent. I can definitely say that's not been how our Cocker litters behave in over 20 years of breeding ;)
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Sorry Jane that is rubbish to say.... I know lots of people that have pups from farms(not the puppy farm ones either)There is a lot of farmer breeders that will disagree in what you are saying...
I would go on to say they are reared no more different than the way you breed....A lot of farm kitchens i go into in the corner of there room are dogs seeing to there pups that is very normal in a lot of farms i go to...
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Well that's probably down to the way these farm litters are reared and also down to the breed to some extent. I can definitely say that's not been how our Cocker litters behave in over 20 years of breeding ;)
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Yep, I am really surprised with all of this. In 40 years of cockers in family I have always thought of cockers as small labs by nature. In that they have always been safe with children putting up with pulling of ears etc. I think a cocker by nature should be a happy litle chap who avoids conflict with humans at all costs but who wants to be your bestest friend in the whole world. Yes, they can argue with their siblings, who doesn't, but humans are a def no no. As for feeding time you should be able to put your hand in the bowl without fear and maybe that should be taught as early as possible.
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Loudon ....I to agree...But others will care to differ....
If i was to say I've seen farmers youngsters crewing across the floor and sitting in with the mother and her pups.....
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Sorry Jane that is rubbish to say.... I know lots of people that have pups from farms(not the puppy farm ones either)There is a lot of farmer breeders that will disagree in what you are saying...
I would go on to say they are reared no more different than the way you breed....A lot of farm kitchens i go into in the corner of there room are dogs seeing to there pups that is very normal in a lot of farms i go to...
I hope I don't have to remind you of COL's Forum Etiquette guidelines re being polite to other members and respecting their opinions. Your reply to me is argumentative and really quite rude >:( Even when I disagree with you (as I do here), I don't say your comments are "rubbish"!!
I will leave this now as to be honest your comments on litter behaviour (whether accurate or not) have little to do with the OP's original problem and any further discussion is just distracting from the issue at hand. We will have to agree to disagree and I'm afraid I really do disagree with you on this one.
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I do apologize to Jane for my behavior yesterday will not happen again will conduct my future post in the right full manner...As to the Etiquette guidelines of this webb site...
After seeing a site on the Webb as to what i meant to say about litter behavior this is what i meant in this Webb site below..It has a lot to do with this post as to Mouthing and biting and will have a clearer understanding as to what i should have but in my post.. ...
Please take note as to the last few lines in the first paragrath....
Please do not link to or add quotes (as they must be attributed) from websites which advocate the use of aversives on puppies/dogs
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Please take note as to the last few lines in the first paragrath....
Also thiswebb site does explane every thing from the first post...
Your website link (removed due to the recommendation of aversives being used on young puppies) is written by someone who obviously believes in the now discredited dominance theory - think I'd rather read Dr Dunbar on puppy behaviour ;) I don't dispute that puppies play fight with each or that they learn bite inhibition from interacting with their litter mates. I disagreed with your assertion that all puppies scrap and squabble when being fed as my own experience does not support this. That's by the by though as this thread is about an adolescent dog resource guarding which is very different from a young puppy play biting/mouthing so probably best we stick to that subject :D
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To the OP, I would agree that if you're seriously concerned, it might be worth contacting a behaviourist.
I've had one pup that did resource guard and was difficult for most of his first year and one pup that was a lot less likely to do it and never really a problem. I have young children too and my experience is that all puppies are different (not good or bad) you can apply more heavy handed training methods to some pups without them starting to react, and with others (that still grow into very wonderful adult dogs) you can't do this with without stressing the pup so much that they actually become worse and a lot more unpredictable.
When I got my first pup (over 10 years ago) I was pregnant and before I knew more, lots of well wishers told me it was important to be able to take anything away from him (just take it, not ask him for it) and stick my hand in his dinner so he knew who was in charge etc etc. There didn't seem to be any need for me to do this but although he wasn't keen on that sort of thing, I tried it and he seemed ok with it - probably similar to Seaanglers Peggy.... the reality was, that he was the softest dog I've ever met and would have put up with anything. Fortunately I stopped listening to well wishers and did a lot more research on training and learnt more about how to get the best out of your pup in a much better way. Which is lucky as the next pup guarded everything ferociously and couldn't even take 'no' let alone having things taken from him or his dinner messed around with.
I have young children too and aside timing him out as a pup when we needed to, we have other simple rules that really help... I never EVER give them treats/bones when the kids are around. Children are unpredictable and can make dogs feel uneasy - if they are even a bit worried about their resource they are much more likely to warn children than adults - so for now, don't give the dog things he really values when the kids are around. Move his bed to somewhere he can feel really safe and have a rule that the kids need to leave him well alone when he's in there. When he's eating, leave him well alone for now and give him space so he can relax. I'd then suggest an adult (with no kids around) starts to try handfeeding and then adding food to his bowl while he's eating when he's relaxed enough and eventually when he's relaxed with that, getting the children to do similar. Teaching 'swapping' with the children is a great idea - dog has a toy and you offer something seriously tasty as a swap that's even more valuable and gradually introduce a command with it - long term, the dog learns to happily give up the toy and welcomes you near him when he has it etc as you're associated with a good thing for him. You can start to apply this to more valuable things with him once he gets the idea etc...
None of this is being soft or avoiding the issue - you are simply helping your pup to learn to relax in his own time and trust you all and in my mind, that's a much safer bet than going head to head with a pup and forcing issues. As adult dogs, both my pups have been absolutely wonderful with children (despite serious worries about the second one when he was younger :lol:) and whilst I still don't give them bones or chews when the kids are around (although I could easily do that with my weim) there is nothing else that's a problem.
Dave (was devil puppy cocker) is still a little prone to guarding or stealing things and burying them but the children just have to ask him to 'leave it' now and he happily gives his prize up for a big cuddle or something tasty from them :lol2: :luv: Had he been handled in a different way in the early days, I FIRMLY believe Dave would have been an unpredictable adult dog which would have been very difficult to manage with young children whereas the first pup probably would have tolerated bad handling and training and still been lovely.
Try not to loose heart, just sit down and try and work out what's triggering the barking and remove/change those situations, then start working on building his trust and letting him learn to relax by practicing some of the positive things I and others have mentioned :luv:
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I have read some of Ian Dunbar books on puppy behaviour...And i see now he writing a book with Cesar Miland on puppie trainng..... That will be interesting... :D
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I'm not going to get heavily involved with this, but I agree with Hannah. I follow Dunbar's desensitisation methods and have had good success, especially around food, treats, etc.
I think swapping is a great idea along with desensitisation. Hannah knows my thoughts are that a dog should be so desensitised that a child could sit safely in with a mum and pups or food or something damgerous can safely be removed from a dog when you just happen to not have something to swap with.
I'm also aware of the Dunbar/Milan book and will be interested to read it and see what it is about Milan that Dunbar sees good in.
Swapsies is your best way around this but look into desensitisation, it may work for you.
I shall now return to reading and sit on my hands ;)
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I have to confess to never having read an Ian Dunbar book that I can remember, but it's stuff that just makes sense to me and has worked....
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I'm also aware of the Dunbar/Milan book and will be interested to read it and see what it is about Milan that Dunbar sees good in.
Sounds like he's just seized the opportunity to get a lot more people reading about reward based training methods (knowing that any book featuring Millan sells by the bucket load):
http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/my-contribution-cesar-millans-new-book
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I'm also aware of the Dunbar/Milan book and will be interested to read it and see what it is about Milan that Dunbar sees good in.
Sounds like he's just seized the opportunity to get a lot more people reading about reward based training methods (knowing that any book featuring Millan sells by the bucket load):
http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/my-contribution-cesar-millans-new-book
Ooh thanks I'd missed that Jane. Well, to be honest, more people know Milan than Dunbar in the general public arena and if it get's his theories out there and more dogs are treated fairly, then I'm all for it.
It's a wise soldier who knows when to sleep with the enemy and when to shoot him!
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This thread has now been split to avoid taking it further off topic than if already is :D So if anyone wants to discuss Cesar Millan again, there's a new thread started HERE (http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=84165)
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Solo growled when she was being fed,and would go for our other dog (Abbie).
Solo sleeps and eats in the utility room and abbie in the kitchen,so I have now taken solo out
of the utility room at meal times and put their bowls beside one another in the kitchen..
So far harmony.
Jan