CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: Christal on August 03, 2011, 08:40:59 PM
-
Looking for a puppy and noticed on some of the KC breeders that they have endorsed the pups.
I realise it means they can't be bred from, but why do they do it? What happens if you want to show the pup and they do well. Do they lift the endorsment if they know it has not gone to an unscrupulous person?
-
I have to say that I fully support this and I believe it protects the breed and the breeders. With regard to showing, I am sure someone will be along to help you out in due course.
-
My thinking on endorsements is that quite often the endorsement is made to ensure that the people don't breed without thought. It allows the animal to mature into early promise, to ensure that it will, if bred from, will give something back to the breed, as well as allowing health tests etc to be done.
Often breeders will lift the endorsements later if e.g the above criteria are met. Speak to the breeders, most will explain under what, if any, circs they will lift the endorsements.
-
I believe that most if not all 'ethical' responsible breeders endorse. There are those who will not lift the endorsement under any circumstance which should be stated in the puppy contract. There are others that will lift the endorsement if certain criteria are met i.e reaching 2 yrs of age, having had all Health tests, being of sound temprement, having had some success at show level etc. etc.
Breeders are responsible for the pups they produce , endorsing them protects the pups, well in theory anyway because of course being endorsed for breeding means that any pups produced from an endorsed bitch or sire would not be able to be KC registered. However that doesn't stop them being bred from and pups being sold as non KC reg or registered with other non KC associations. Always stay away from non KC reg litters as they start the alarm bells ringing, if all is above board there is no reason why a litter would not be reg with the KC, though the 'breeders' come up with all sorts of lame excuses for not reg with KC.
As you appear to be looking for a pup I would advise you that those who endorse are responsible breeders ;) If you think you may have breeding plans in the future then discuss this with the breeder who will outline their criteria for lifting any endorsements (which is easy enough to do ;)) Good luck in your search.
-
When breeding golden retrievers I ALWAYS PUT ENDORSEMENTS ON. The reason, I was quite happy for the new owners to possibly breed or use one of my dogs at stud providing they had carried out all the necessary health check and let me have sight of the paperwork.
That way I was able to ensure that they only bred if the bitch's hip and elbow scores were below the recommended level for breeding and the dogs again had all the relevant hip, elbow and eye tests done.
Personally, it was more about the health of my progeny than my reputation as a breeder as I had very few litters only when I wanted one for myself.
-
Thanks for your replies.
I can understand, and totally agree with, those breeders who insist on all criteria being met before lifting an endorsement.
What I don't understand is those who won't lift endorsements under any circumstances. Why? I'm not being awkward I just don't understand it.
I believe that most if not all 'ethical' responsible breeders endorse. There are those who will not lift the endorsement under any circumstance which should be stated in the puppy contract.
-
Just taking a little (fairly educated) guess here. I would suspect that the breeders who absolutely refuse to lift any endorsements really do not want their puppies bred from at any time in the future possibly because they want to keep their quality and type. I would never criticise any breeder who does this and would respect their wish as long as I was aware of this from the very beginning. As previously mentioned, if there is any possibility that you may wish to breed in the future, you must discuss the possibility of lifting the endorsement with the breeder before actually buying the puppy. Personally, I am all for endorsements - it proves the breeders are responsible and genuinely care for the breed.
-
What I don't understand is those who won't lift endorsements under any circumstances. Why? I'm not being awkward I just don't understand it.
Some breeders feel quite strongly that puppies they have sold as family pets should not be bred from ie they feel there are already too many litters being bred and that family pets don't need to bred from to add to those numbers. We generally will not lift endorsements for puppies sold as pets - none of our homes have ever found this a problem as most don't want the responsibility of breeding and will usually neuter their dogs anyway.
-
What I don't understand is those who won't lift endorsements under any circumstances. Why? I'm not being awkward I just don't understand it.
Some breeders feel quite strongly that puppies they have sold as family pets should not be bred from ie they feel there are already too many litters being bred and that family pets don't need to bred from to add to those numbers. We generally will not lift endorsements for puppies sold as pets - none of our homes have ever found this a problem as most don't want the responsibility of breeding and will usually neuter their dogs anyway.
As I said earlier I can understand that 'pets' shouldn't be bred from. What I don't understand is why a breeder would refuse to lift endorsements under any circumstance, ie shown and doing well, all health tests etc and even asking the breeder about sires or dams to keep the line pure.
-
Christal, I think maybe the best thing for you to do is ask a breeder that question directly and see what she/he says. Have you found a puppy you like and has the breeder imposed endorsements? If so, she/he will explain exactly why these endorsements are in place and why they will refuse to lift them. Hope this helps a little bit. Sorry I can't be specific as it is the choice of individual breeders as to why they permanently endorse.
-
Christal, I think maybe the best thing for you to do is ask a breeder that question directly and see what she/he says. Have you found a puppy you like and has the breeder imposed endorsements? If so, she/he will explain exactly why these endorsements are in place and why they will refuse to lift them. Hope this helps a little bit. Sorry I can't be specific as it is the choice of individual breeders as to why they permanently endorse.
Absolutely, always best to ask the breeder these things as we can only speculate on the motives.
-
As I said earlier I can understand that 'pets' shouldn't be bred from. What I don't understand is why a breeder would refuse to lift endorsements under any circumstance, ie shown and doing well, all health tests etc and even asking the breeder about sires or dams to keep the line pure.
My personal opinion as a breeder would be that by removing endorsements even in the "right" circumstances opens up so many possibilities of something going wrong, for example, perhaps the inexperienced owner/breeder sells a puppy out of my bitch without endorsements to a puppy farm or large breeding establishment, I certainly wouldn't want anyone breeding puppies like this to get hold of a puppy with 50% of my breeding...then there is the possibility of the breeding age bitch I have bred being passed onto another owner/breeder/puppy farm as having no endorsements she becomes quite attractive to these type of homes.......there's just too many instances where it could go wrong. I like all my puppies to be in pet homes living the life of luxury without a care in the world with people who want them as nothing else but a faithful companion. What's wrong with wanting the best for your babies? :luv:
For what its worth, the last time I sold a bitch as a pet and lifted endorsements for this person to have "one litter"........the bitch is now 8 years old and on her 5th litter...... :'(
A very well respected breeder said something to me only this week - "People will say anything to get what they want" - and you can't trust anyone.
-
I understand a bit where experienced breeders are coming from but how and why do hobby breeders ever get started? Breeding has been something I have considered. Have been put off by many comments on here. But who does it and who is the judge here? An unscrupulous person will always find a way. It's always the honest bods that run into difficulties???
-
I understand a bit where experienced breeders are coming from but how and why do hobby breeders ever get started?
By getting involved in an activity with their Cockers (showing/working/agility etc) and showing their interest in the breed is way more than just wanting to breed from them. In my experience, serious breeders will be happy to mentor someone like this who demonstrates a genuine interest and passion for learning than someone who just says they want a puppy and quite likes the idea of having a litter later on. Breeding should be part of a wider interest and involvement in a breed and not just an end in itself...
-
It's always the honest bods that run into difficulties???
not really - its like lots of other things you also have to prove yourself as well in lots of other ways
-
On reading previous posts I have had my views on endorsements changed to some degree.
But firstly I must challenge the post that stated that responsible breeders put endorsements on all their pups. This appears to make the assertion that those breeders who don't are not responsible breeders. This is fundamentally wrong as you may be able to produce anecdotal evidence to support this view but that is all. If a poor quality breeder puts endorsements on does this make him suddenly a responsible breeder? I think not.
There are many breeders who do not normally put endorsements on who are excellent breeders, taking every care in the breeding of healthy,sound, up to standard pups who are well socialised and offerred life long support and the option for the dog to be returned at any stage. A lot of these breeders will only have one or two carefully planned litters a year and can be truly described as hobby breeders.
As in the Accredited Breeder Scheme and those who put endorsements on their pups these are only pointers which any prospective buyer should consider but are not defining as to the decision as to what breeder you should buy your pup from.
On reading some posts I understand the concerns of breeders as to the future welfare of the pups and particularly the bitches getting into the wrong hands and so I would now support breeding endorsements for pet quality pups. However, as a previous post has stated if you want to show and eventually breed from your bitch to retain a pup just how do you start? You are completely in the hands of the breeder of the bitch and if he takes an umbrage to you and perhaps because of your success in the ring then just what can you do if they refuse to lift the endorsement?
-
Surly if the pup had endorsment on in the first place..Why would you buy the pup..Knowing it has endorsments in place!!!!....That you could not breed from the pup....
-
Surly if the pup had endorsement on in the first place..Why would you buy the pup..Knowing it has endorsements in place!!!!....That you could not breed from the pup....
Pups are the breeders responsibility for 'life' Chris, not just until they're sold! - most good breeders also ask for a contract to be signed by the new owners stating that if their circumstances change & the dog has to be re homed, first port of call should be the original breeder. Endorsements are a breeders way of giving each pup protection from unscrupulous breeding or exportation abroad without their knowledge. Think you might find your Fieldie bitch may have the same too - personally I would find it odd if she didn't :dunno:
;) :-*
-
I recently had a call from a lady looking for a pup, we had a long chat about cockers in general, I asked her if the pup was wanted as a 'pet only' she said yes, I then explained about the endorsements and boy did she change, got really nasty saying she could do what she wanted with HER pup after all she paid for it and it now belonged to her, I tried explaining the reasons why the endorsements were in place and her tone was getting nastier and nastier, so I said 'well it's obvious you DO want one for breeding' so wished her luck in finding her pup - but no way was she having one of mine. >:D
As Louise said - "People will say anything to get what they want"
-
Think you might find your Fieldie bitch may have the same too - personally I would find it odd if she didn't :dunno:
;) :-*
I'd be surprised too, especially as the breeders are members of the ABS scheme which heavily promotes the use of contracts etc
-
On reading previous posts I have had my views on endorsements changed to some degree.
But firstly I must challenge the post that stated that responsible breeders put endorsements on all their pups. This appears to make the assertion that those breeders who don't are not responsible breeders.
If you are referring to my first post on here, then I can only apologise for any misunderstanding it may have caused. Absolutely in no way, shape or form was I inferring that just because a breeder does not impose endorsements, then that breeder is irresponsible. My post was not meant to infer that at all. All three of my cockers had no endorsements placed and they were from responsible, caring breeders. As Sharon has said a few posts up, the endorsement she imposed prevented a potential buyer (who obviously lied to her by saying the puppy was for pet only) from probably using the dog as a breeding machine, so in my opinion, thank Heaven for that endorsement and the fact that Sharon refused to lift it. My personal opinion only and in no way meant as any disrespect to breeders who don't impose endorsements.
Just as a little aside, my daughter bought a puppy (irish setter) from an Accredited Breeder who had imposed endorsements. My daugher had no problem as Ruby was purely for a pet only. However, upon Ruby's health check up from the vet, it was discovered that she had a hernia. OK, so no real problem BUT the breeder told my daughter that she was sorry she had not pointed this out to her and that she should have done. Point I am making here is, I guess, even those who are Accredited breeders/impose endorsements can be a bit naughty!!!
-
On reading previous posts I have had my views on endorsements changed to some degree.
But firstly I must challenge the post that stated that responsible breeders put endorsements on all their pups. This appears to make the assertion that those breeders who don't are not responsible breeders.
If you are referring to my first post on here,
Hi Neon, that's cool. I'm always getting my posts misinterpreted anyway. :luv:
I think because I have known the breeder of Lucy (I bred Poppy) for many years I have not had any endorsements on her or previous pups. Think that comes down to trust based on her knowledge of me and my family. I always take interest in Jane's posts and am flexible enough to change my views based on intelligent information. I can see where you guys are coming from. I would hate any pup to be misused.
-
Loudon
No probs and thanks for understanding.
-
I endorse all mine even the ones im keeping then when the time is right I will lift the endrsments to have a litter for something to carry on showing with this is slightley off topic but can show what can happen five weeks ago we had a couple come use one of our boys at stud they seemed to know the inns and outs of the time energy and hard work in haveing this once only litter, thier girl was mated and came back to be scanned last weekend while scanning the lady said:do yu know anyone who would have my girl and her pups I was like ummmm when, and near fell on floor when she said oh the pups will be about 10 days ive booked a holiday,well after i managed to grit my teeth and not blurt out what i was about to a cha few choice words were said and she went away probably thinking i was a mean bitch especially when i informed her if i had known this at start she would never have got to use one of my boys in the first place >:D >:D :luv:
-
Valf
Let me get this right you endorse all your pups and the one you are keeping(and when the time is right you will lift the endorcement)...(on your own pup!!!!)Am i being thick or what..I can see the logic in the ones you have sold on .....But the one you are keeping :dunno: Why would you have that one endorse Your own pup!!!
-
I am not sure Chris but I think you endorse the whole litter? I think thats the way it works but not completely sure, I will have to look that one up, but someone more knowledgable will correct me if I am wrong ;)
ETA I have just looked on the KC website and its not clear, but I think you register each pup individually and have the choice whether to endorse, but if someone knows I would be intereseted in the answer?
I assume some breeders will endorse the pup they keep in case they sell it on at 6 mths if they ran it on for ? show potential but it didn't fulfill expectations ? Can a pup be endorsed after initial registration? If not then that would be the reason in my guess. Lifting of endorsements are easy if the breeder agrees so no hassle if you have bred your own pup ;)
-
You get the option which pups to endorse when registering them, there's a box to tick as to which endorsements you wish to place on each pup.
Providing the dog is still in your possession then yes you can endorse it later, but once the endorsement has been removed you can't put it back on again.
-
Valf
Let me get this right you endorse all your pups and the one you are keeping(and when the time is right you will lift the endorcement)...(on your own pup!!!!)Am i being thick or what..I can see the logic in the ones you have sold on .....But the one you are keeping :dunno: Why would you have that one endorse Your own pup!!!
Because you may not know exactly which pup you are keeping when you register the litter so you endorse them all. Also the pup you keep may turn out to have a fault or is not good enough to breed from after all - you can always put an endorsement on later but it's easier to endorse all puppies and lift when appropriate then to have to fiddle around placing endorsements later.
-
You get the option which pups to endorse when registering them, there's a box to tick as to which endorsements you wish to place on each pup.
Providing the dog is still in your possession then yes you can endorse it later, but once the endorsement has been removed you can't put it back on again.
Thanks ;)
-
You get the option which pups to endorse when registering them, there's a box to tick as to which endorsements you wish to place on each pup.
Providing the dog is still in your possession then yes you can endorse it later, but once the endorsement has been removed you can't put it back on again.
Thanks ;)
Jane S.
And Another thanks from me to...Not we got that straight it makes sense :D
-
I fully support endorsements. I think it's very responsible of the breeder. My Dru is endorsed, but if I wish to breed later I could request it lifted. Providing I had proof of health tests and temp etc. I personally as a relative newbie to showing and breeding am completely happy with that and would want my breeders help in such matters anyway whether endorsed or not. I will add I have no plans to do any such thing with him at the mo, but you never know what the future will hold. If I did have another litter each and every pup of mine would be endorsed for sure.
-
Good thread. I used to think endorsements were a bit controlling, in that you've paid a lot for a dog that is then controlled by someone else. Ironically Darcey doesn't have them but don't think I will breed from her.
-
Good thread. I used to think endorsements were a bit controlling, in that you've paid a lot for a dog that is then controlled by someone else. Ironically Darcey doesn't have them but don't think I will breed from her.
No I don't see it as controlling at all and actually see it as a sign of a very responsible breeder. I respect a breeder who endorses. obviously as I'm showing and may wish to breed in the future I would need to know that it could be lifted, but am perfectly happy for it to be there in the first place even if I know the breeder well. They are simply covering their own backs and looking after the safety of their pups. I wouldn't want to breed in the wrong circumstances anyway. I see it as a very positive thing.
-
Sorry 6th sense. I wasn't clear enough. That's what I used to think but now this thread has made me see the reasoning around it all I quite agree.
-
Sorry 6th sense. I wasn't clear enough. That's what I used to think but now this thread has made me see the reasoning around it all I quite agree.
No that's ok sorry. That's great to hear. It really is a good thing in my eyes and something I only became familiar with through showing, but something I very much believe in. :D
-
I respect a breeder who endorses. obviously as I'm showing and may wish to breed in the future I would need to know that it could be lifted,
I think everyone can agree with endorsements that will be lifted if the breeder is happy that you are showing, all health tests have been done etc.
What I didn't, and still don't, understand is the breeders who state that they will not lift the endorsement UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.
I've seen adverts for puppies with this stated, which is why I asked the question in the first place. I find it really strange and just wondered if there was a particular reason for this. From the answers it appears there isn't.
-
To be honest with a pet dog that really wouldn't worry me. I think if you wish to show and breed all you need to do is look for one that isn't. ;)
-
What I didn't, and still don't, understand is the breeders who state that they will not lift the endorsement UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.
I've seen adverts for puppies with this stated, which is why I asked the question in the first place. I find it really strange and just wondered if there was a particular reason for this. From the answers it appears there isn't.
I thought we already said that you'd have to ask the breeders concerned what their reasons are?? I've already said why I wouldn't lift endorsements for puppies sold as pets but you said this wasn't what you meant so I'm at a loss really to understand what adverts you're referring to? Are you referring to puppies specifically being advertised for showing where endorsements wont be lifted? Can't say I've seen those kind of ads but then I generally avoid the free ad sites as I find them too depressing and not the best places to source a good breeder ph34r Also most good show breeders don't need to use those sites and are sensible enough not to advertise pups for show/breeding when this cannot be guaranteed.
-
When we brought are Pupie (Gemma) the subject of endorsements came after a long discussion it was said that under the supervision and every thing in place as to health checks Etc and the co-opperation from another breeder that lives near me that we would find a sire of the right choosing and then she would lift the endorsement(also the breeder would have the first pick)
-
What I didn't, and still don't, understand is the breeders who state that they will not lift the endorsement UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.
I've seen adverts for puppies with this stated, which is why I asked the question in the first place. I find it really strange and just wondered if there was a particular reason for this. From the answers it appears there isn't.
I thought we already said that you'd have to ask the breeders concerned what their reasons are?? I've already said why I wouldn't lift endorsements for puppies sold as pets but you said this wasn't what you meant so I'm at a loss really to understand what adverts you're referring to? Are you referring to puppies specifically being advertised for showing where endorsements wont be lifted? Can't say I've seen those kind of ads but then I generally avoid the free ad sites as I find them too depressing and not the best places to source a good breeder ph34r Also most good show breeders don't need to use those sites and are sensible enough not to advertise pups for show/breeding when this cannot be guaranteed.
Agree. If a breeder is stating that they will never lift an endorsement and you really really want one of their pupiies then it really is a case of asking them directly . It may be something as simple as they want to discourage any would be BYB etc and that they are ameniable to removing endorsements if certain conditions are met. But if you don't ask then you'll never know :-)
-
I wouldn't lift endorsements for puppies sold as pets
I do not wish to breed but have been reading this debate with interest. Could a refusal to lift endorsements inadvertently have the opposite effect to what you intended?
Endorsements will not stop the determined owner, it just means the pups can't be KC registered.
A hypothetical scenario, owner buys a pup and agrees to endorsements as 'just wants a pet'. Later they would like to breed so asks breeder to lift endorsements. Breeder refuses. Owner still wants pups so decides to go ahead and maybe register with another body.. Thinks of a stud dog and sees no point using health tested KC stud ( doubtful his owner would allow anyway) so uses the obliging spaniel down the road ( he is also free). The resulting pups are advertised in free press and sold at a bargain price (compared to KC reg litters) to unsuspecting owners.
This could be the start of a BYB as they have not had the expense of reputable breeders.
I am not for one moment saying that this is acceptable and always happens, but I do think that endorsements will not stop a determined owner.
I am not 'having a go' at you Jane or any responsible breeders who put endorsements on their pups and when I get my next pup I WILL choose one such breeder. :D
-
Could get shot down in flames for this but...I purposefully did not get Darcey from a "proper" breeder for a couple of reasons. Firstly our family cocker spaniel had come from a lovely family who had a litter and she was the loveliest dog. Secondly around 6 years ago we bought a Basset Hound from a reputable breeder. For several reasons (some fault on my behalf some on the breeders) the dog was a disaster and was sent back to the breeder. Finding a reputable breeder as a novice is a minefield. Darcey was bred by a vet owner. She had 2 cockers. Does agility etc. Darcey has a fantastic temperament. I bought from her mainly for these factors and trusted that the health of the puppies would be sound. I understand where these endorsements come from and agree with them. I understand that it is difficult to control responsible and supportive breeding. I think that we have been very lucky with our old family dog and with Darcey. But I do not believe that only "breeders" should breed.
-
You guys prob wont like what Im about to say but my opinion is I agree to a certain extent on endorsing dogs, however from what it seems from reading this thread is that owners of dogs that show their dogs think they effectively seem to have a right to breed over someone who does not show- is that correct. I see it as anyone has a right to breed from their dog providing all the measures are put in place such as health testing, good care of the puppies and responsible selling. I know show breeders say they breed to get a possible show dog to keep- but the word is "possible" all the litter mates get sold on. I know of large show kennels who have lots and lots of litters a year and the majority of pups get sold- So my question is how is this any better than a hobby breeder and what gives a breeder an automatic right beacause they show-
eg what if a family wanted to breed their dog to keep a puppy and health test ect. How is that any different to a show breeder keeping a puppy- the puppies are born for different reasons one as a pet one to show but it does not neccessarly mean the pups are not of good health and temp which after all that is what the main concern should be and not bettering their looks to meet breed standard!!!!! >:(
-
But I do not believe that only "breeders" should breed.
Anybody who has a litter even just one litter is a breeder ;) I just think we have way too many litters being born in this country and that there has been an explosion in BYB & commercial breeding (possibly due to the way the internet now makes it easy for such breeders to sell or attempt to sell their pups) I don't believe for one minute that good permanent homes exist for all these puppies - I know plenty of well-known reputable breeders who are not finding it easy to find good homes at the moment and many are putting off breeding because of this. That's why I don't feel anyone should be breeding just as an end in itself - the number of Cocker litters currently for sale on the free ad sites is staggering and really quite scary ph34r
Could a refusal to lift endorsements inadvertently have the opposite effect to what you intended?
Endorsements will not stop the determined owner, it just means the pups can't be KC registered.
Yes of course you are right - endorsements do not stop someone who is determined to breed at all costs and I'm sure it does happen (although not to any of our puppies to our knowledge) The price of puppies registered with other commercial companies are not necessarily cheaper than KC reg puppies either ;) I don't think the use of endorsements encourage people to breed irresponsibly though - they will do that with or without endorsements if they have that kind of mindset. Also nobody is forced to buy a puppy with endorsements - there are plenty of breeders who don't use them who are happy to sell to anyone, whether they want to breed in future or not.
-
however from what it seems from reading this thread is that owners of dogs that show their dogs think they effectively seem to have a right to breed over someone who does not show- is that correct. I see it as anyone has a right to breed from their dog providing all the measures are put in place such as health testing, good care of the puppies and responsible selling.
No not true at all. Of course you're competely entitled to your opinion that anyone should be free to breed whatever their motives in breeding but I'm afraid I don't share that view and it's nothing to do with thinking I'm superior and have more right to breed than those that don't show - it's believing very strongly that there are too many litters being born for no good reason by people who have no interest in the breed apart from breeding them and that's not how it should be...
-
I to agree in some ways as to what Poppy is saying....
But on the other hand as to what breeders have been doing in the past,Are not breeders to blame for the miss developing of some of the breeds the Bulldog,pug,Cavalier spaniel, the Alsatian. You only have to look at one particular post look at the the Alsatian on how they look back some years ago and as they are now....
And ask your self as to why the BBC pulled out of crufts the breeders are no angels in my books other wise they would have had there say on the day out side crufts instead of running away from the Media and the cameras...Was that NOT top breeders and judges of the show!!!(why run) did they have some thing to hide!! all as fell by the way side now gone quiet....But still going on....But now with designers breeds until they breed the hell out of them >:(
-
Chris, please don't turn this into a "bash the show breeder" thread - this is a thread about endorsements not how terrible show breeders are (you can't think they are that bad though as you have just bought a puppy from one :D) If you want to have another go at show breeders and Crufts, then please start a thread on the General Dog Discussion board.
-
To be honest with a pet dog that really wouldn't worry me. I think if you wish to show and breed all you need to do is look for one that isn't. ;)
Agreed and IMO this sums it up nicely. I have no intention of breeding or showing so any endorsement would not have deterred me from buying a sound healthy puppy. If I had wanted to breed or show, I would have looked for a suitable litter with no endorsements or had it written in the sale contract that the breeder would lift the endorsement, provided I met the breeder's criteria - simples!! No matter what endorsements may be in place, there will always be unscrupulous people who ignore these and go ahead and breed. Nothing is foolproof, unfortunately, but endorsements do help to deter this.
-
No matter what endorsements may be in place, there will always be unscrupulous people who ignore these and go ahead and breed. Nothing is foolproof, unfortunately, but endorsements do help to deter this.
Absolutely ;)
I forgot to mention before for those that want to make this about show breeders, it really isn't anyway as there are breeders who don't show at all but but use the same kind of contracts and endorsements that I do.
-
I am going to sit on the fence a little (can't help it, I am a Libra :005:)
With regards to Seaanglers post, I think it is unfair to tar all breeders with the same brush..in fact, I would go further and say that the vast majority of breeders (certainly that you would find at Crufts anyway) have the best interests of the breed at heart and would be horrified if they thought anything they were doing was detrimental at all. However, e.g in a numerically large breed such as CKCS, which is also popular with puppy farms, all you need are a small % of irresponsible breeders (be they show kennels, hobby kennels, BYB, PF, pet breeders, whatever) to breed without care and you automatically can have a large number of genetically damaged puppies into the gene pool. Also, with regards to 'designer dog' breeding I would suggest that the vast vast majority of these aren't bred by those who would not be exhibiting pure breds at crufts!!!!!
I think * what I am trying to say is that you can't just tar everyone with the same brush. There are, as we all know, different types of breeders. i suppose the easiest way to differentiate would be responsible v. irresponsible. And yes, I do accept that you will get some irresponsible breeders amongst the showing fraternity and also some extremely responsible pet breeders.
ph34r Ooops, don't think I am putting this well at all, hope it makes sense - I'll stop no before I wind myself in more circles :005:
-
I think * what I am trying to say is that you can't just tar everyone with the same brush. There are, as we all know, different types of breeders. i suppose the easiest way to differentiate would be responsible v. irresponsible. And yes, I do accept that you will get some irresponsible breeders amongst the showing fraternity and also some extremely responsible pet breeders.
ph34r Ooops, don't think I am putting this well at all, hope it makes sense - I'll stop no before I wind myself in more circles :005:
On the contrary, you've put it very well :shades:
-
however from what it seems from reading this thread is that owners of dogs that show their dogs think they effectively seem to have a right to breed over someone who does not show- is that correct. I see it as anyone has a right to breed from their dog providing all the measures are put in place such as health testing, good care of the puppies and responsible selling.
No not true at all. Of course you're competely entitled to your opinion that anyone should be free to breed whatever their motives in breeding but I'm afraid I don't share that view and it's nothing to do with thinking I'm superior and have more right to breed than those that don't show - it's believing very strongly that there are too many litters being born for no good reason by people who have no interest in the breed apart from breeding them and that's not how it should be...
thats fair enough however just because you dont show does not mean you dont have an interest in the breed- I agree their are lots of breeders who breed just to make money and that I do not agree with. But say I wanted to breed which I dont- I have an interest in the breed and its welfare, I dont show but am concidering, say I was to breed a litter of cockers with health tested parents, had a mentor, provided the best care for the pups, vetted homes to make sure suitable and kept a pup for myself and I did this because they were my dogs and I wanted the oppurtunity to experience having a litter of pups and keep myself a pup. who is to say this is wrong?
I agree there are many dogs on the internet and its terrible but just because show breeders dont advertise so blatently and its more word of mouth does not mean there are not 100's porb thousands of pups been born by show breeder that dont come up to scratch t keep so get sold on- so personally dont see the difference!!
I think the main thing is the welfare of the dogs concerned and Im all for that and do not agree with breeding for profit but like penfold says not everyone should be tarred with the same brush
-
I am sorry... I was not knocking breeders as there are two sides to every story and as to why endorsement are put into place, But it does not mean that i'm agreeing in its entirety to endorsements.
Quote(you can't think they are that bad though as you have just bought a puppy from one )
Yes i have brought a pup from a breeder..I also rang a breeder not far away from me who has a fantastic reputation in the field spaniel field to ask for her advice about my pup...Thease breeds do not pop up every five mints unlike cocker's and springers!!!And ware else would you find one apart from a reparable breeder!!! :D They are NOT your back door dog after all..
-
penfold ..... I did understand your post :D
-
thats fair enough however just because you dont show does not mean you dont have an interest in the breed- I agree their are lots of breeders who breed just to make money and that I do not agree with. But say I wanted to breed which I dont- I have an interest in the breed and its welfare, I dont show but am concidering, say I was to breed a litter of cockers with health tested parents, had a mentor, provided the best care for the pups, vetted homes to make sure suitable and kept a pup for myself and I did this because they were my dogs and I wanted the oppurtunity to experience having a litter of pups and keep myself a pup. who is to say this is wrong?
I haven't said anywhere that to be a responsible breeder, you need to show your dog - I've said you should have a deeper involvement in a breed than just wanting to breed just for the sake of it (that could be showing or any number of other activities) I have not said that all show breeders are wonderful or that all breeders who don't show are irresponsible - you seem to have drawn those conclusions but it's not what I've actually said. This started off being a discussion about endorsements and that's how I'll leave it - as a breeder, I have a right to place endorsements if I want to and choose the type of homes I want for my pups. I also have the right not to lift endorsements on pet puppies - anybody who has one of our pups is fully aware of this and has to sign to say they accept this. None has ever objected (if they did, they of course would be totally free to go elsewhere for a puppy and indeed I would encourage them to do so)
I feel like I'm bashing my head slightly against the proverbial brick wall here so think I will get on with some work now -I've been putting it off for too long :D
-
thats fair enough however just because you dont show does not mean you dont have an interest in the breed- I agree their are lots of breeders who breed just to make money and that I do not agree with. But say I wanted to breed which I dont- I have an interest in the breed and its welfare, I dont show but am concidering, say I was to breed a litter of cockers with health tested parents, had a mentor, provided the best care for the pups, vetted homes to make sure suitable and kept a pup for myself and I did this because they were my dogs and I wanted the oppurtunity to experience having a litter of pups and keep myself a pup. who is to say this is wrong?
I haven't said anywhere that to be a responsible breeder, you need to show your dog - I've said you should have a deeper involvement in a breed than just wanting to breed just for the sake of it (that could be showing or any number of other activities) I have not said that all show breeders are wonderful or that all breeders who don't show are irresponsible - you seem to have drawn those conclusions but it's not what I've actually said. This started off being a discussion about endorsements and that's how I'll leave it - as a breeder, I have a right to place endorsements if I want to and choose the type of homes I want for my pups. I also have the right not to lift endorsements on pet puppies - anybody who has one of our pups is fully aware of this and has to sign to say they accept this. None has ever objected (if they did, they of course would be totally free to go elsewhere for a puppy and indeed I would encourage them to do so)
I feel like I'm bashing my head slightly against the proverbial brick wall here so think I will get on with some work now -I've been putting it off for too long :D
Hear hear.........I too endorse and will continue to do so.
-
I just think we have way too many litters being born in this country and that there has been an explosion in BYB & commercial breeding (possibly due to the way the internet now makes it easy for such breeders to sell or attempt to sell their pups) I don't believe for one minute that good permanent homes exist for all these puppies
(sorry can't do the quotey thing properly) this is maybe a separate issue. Maybe the kennel club should start limiting the no. Of puppies they register each year?
-
I just think we have way too many litters being born in this country and that there has been an explosion in BYB & commercial breeding (possibly due to the way the internet now makes it easy for such breeders to sell or attempt to sell their pups) I don't believe for one minute that good permanent homes exist for all these puppies
(sorry can't do the quotey thing properly) this is maybe a separate issue. Maybe the kennel club should start limiting the no. Of puppies they register each year?
Most of the BYB and commercial breeders do not register puppies. Also puppies born of endorsed parents cannot be registered. It is up to the buyers to buy from reputable breeders
-
I just think we have way too many litters being born in this country and that there has been an explosion in BYB & commercial breeding (possibly due to the way the internet now makes it easy for such breeders to sell or attempt to sell their pups) I don't believe for one minute that good permanent homes exist for all these puppies
(sorry can't do the quotey thing properly) this is maybe a separate issue. Maybe the kennel club should start limiting the no. Of puppies they register each year?
I was reading Our Dogs last week and they were going on about how the numbers of KC registered pups have fallen but the number of enquiries on the KC find a puppy service has increased dramatically. I *think* it was Ronnie Irvine (ex head of KC) who was saying that surely it is better for decent breeders to breed more litters to fulfill a demand rather than novice puppy buyers being pushed into the arms of puppy farms due to a shortage of good quality, well reared puppes from decent, responsible breeders.
However, as you say, as to whether these prospective owners would all be deemed to be 'decent' homes is another matter :-\
Its a hard circle to square I suppose. If there is pent up, decent, demand then it would be better that new owners got pups from responsible breeders rather than buying a bundle of trouble from a puppy farmer. IS it more of a case that there are too many puppies 'overall' being bred...e.g SBT, mongrels etc, whilst the public want specific breeds????
-
What I didn't, and still don't, understand is the breeders who state that they will not lift the endorsement UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.
I've seen adverts for puppies with this stated, which is why I asked the question in the first place. I find it really strange and just wondered if there was a particular reason for this. From the answers it appears there isn't.
I thought we already said that you'd have to ask the breeders concerned what their reasons are?? I've already said why I wouldn't lift endorsements for puppies sold as pets but you said this wasn't what you meant so I'm at a loss really to understand what adverts you're referring to? Are you referring to puppies specifically being advertised for showing where endorsements wont be lifted? Can't say I've seen those kind of ads but then I generally avoid the free ad sites as I find them too depressing and not the best places to source a good breeder ph34r Also most good show breeders don't need to use those sites and are sensible enough not to advertise pups for show/breeding when this cannot be guaranteed.
I never mentioned Free Add sites. I mentioned KC site.
The reason I asked on here was because I thought that someone knowledgeable would be able to explain something that didn't make a great deal of sense to me. NOT because I'll definitely show,or breed, but because I saw puppies advertised at £700, that the breeder was saying could only go to
'pet homes - will not lift any endorsements so don't ask'
I'm hardly likely to enquire after that statement as to 'why'
-
We endorse our puppies because sadly you can't trust people. You only have to see the BRS to realise how bad the situation is :-\.
-
What I didn't, and still don't, understand is the breeders who state that they will not lift the endorsement UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.
I've seen adverts for puppies with this stated, which is why I asked the question in the first place. I find it really strange and just wondered if there was a particular reason for this. From the answers it appears there isn't.
I thought we already said that you'd have to ask the breeders concerned what their reasons are?? I've already said why I wouldn't lift endorsements for puppies sold as pets but you said this wasn't what you meant so I'm at a loss really to understand what adverts you're referring to? Are you referring to puppies specifically being advertised for showing where endorsements wont be lifted? Can't say I've seen those kind of ads but then I generally avoid the free ad sites as I find them too depressing and not the best places to source a good breeder ph34r Also most good show breeders don't need to use those sites and are sensible enough not to advertise pups for show/breeding when this cannot be guaranteed.
I never mentioned Free Add sites. I mentioned KC site.
The reason I asked on here was because I thought that someone knowledgeable would be able to explain something that didn't make a great deal of sense to me. NOT because I'll definitely show,or breed, but because I saw puppies advertised at £700, that the breeder was saying could only go to
'pet homes - will not lift any endorsements so don't ask'I'm hardly likely to enquire after that statement as to 'why'
It could possibly be, that they've had so many enquiries from people who want a pup without endorsements ( & to a decent breeder this will set alarm bells ringing!!) that they're fed up of saying it :dunno: ....if you intend to breed from a bitch pup you don't enquire - simple as that.
& if you don't intend to breed, you're OK...... I'm not sure what the problem is :dunno:
-
[/quote]
It could possibly be, that they've had so many enquiries from people who want a pup without endorsements ( & to a decent breeder this will set alarm bells ringing!!) that they're fed up of saying it :dunno: ....if you intend to breed from a bitch pup you don't enquire - simple as that.
& if you don't intend to breed, you're OK...... I'm not sure what the problem is :dunno:
[/quote]
Not a problem - simple curiosity :shades:
-
I'm sorry but you've confused me Crystal - when I explained much earlier on in this thread why I would not remove endorsements for pet puppies, you said that's not what you meant but it seems from your post above it was ads for pet puppies you meant :huh: I'm not sure why you still don't understand the motivation for such breeders - several of us on here have already explained our reasons and don't think we can really make it any clearer :dunno:
-
Just discovered that my rescue girl was not only KC registered and endorsed, but the original owner signed an agreement to have her spayed...yet they tried to breed her at 7 months! She was apparently having none of it and so they got rid of her as 'aggressive'
I hasten to add she is booked in for the end of October as she is just out of season now! Some people should be shot!
-
I'm sorry but you've confused me Crystal - when I explained much earlier on in this thread why I would not remove endorsements for pet puppies, you said that's not what you meant but it seems from your post above it was ads for pet puppies you meant :huh: I'm not sure why you still don't understand the motivation for such breeders - several of us on here have already explained our reasons and don't think we can really make it any clearer :dunno:
I think I've confused myself :D And it was simple curiosity that made me ask the question.
Seeing the add on the KC site, and with it extolling the virtues of the Pedigreess of both dam and sire (and lets face it £700 is not cheap) it just struck me as odd that basically after all that it seemed to be saying 'but don't try to show'. That's assuming that if people do show and do well they may want to breed from a champion dog. Why go on about a fabulous Pedigree if it can't be perpetuated :huh:
I freely admit I know next to nothing about showing or breeding, I'm looking for a puppy and thought it would be nice to try some local shows that the pup and I could enjoy together. It's about 16 years since I bought my last dogs (GSD, and their backs did not look like a toddlers slide >:D ) and the tone and nature of adverts seems to have changed a lot.
I'ts great reading everyones opinions, and I think quite a few people, including me, have learned a lot.
-
I'm sorry but you've confused me Crystal - when I explained much earlier on in this thread why I would not remove endorsements for pet puppies, you said that's not what you meant but it seems from your post above it was ads for pet puppies you meant :huh: I'm not sure why you still don't understand the motivation for such breeders - several of us on here have already explained our reasons and don't think we can really make it any clearer :dunno:
I think I've confused myself :D And it was simple curiosity that made me ask the question.
Seeing the add on the KC site, and with it extolling the virtues of the Pedigreess of both dam and sire (and lets face it £700 is not cheap) it just struck me as odd that basically after all that it seemed to be saying 'but don't try to show'. That's assuming that if people do show and do well they may want to breed from a champion dog. Why go on about a fabulous Pedigree if it can't be perpetuated :huh:
Being endorsed does not mean you cannot show.
I freely admit I know next to nothing about showing or breeding, I'm looking for a puppy and thought it would be nice to try some local shows that the pup and I could enjoy together. It's about 16 years since I bought my last dogs (GSD, and their backs did not look like a toddlers slide >:D ) and the tone and nature of adverts seems to have changed a lot.
I'ts great reading everyones opinions, and I think quite a few people, including me, have learned a lot.
-
[/quote]
Being endorsed does not mean you cannot show.
[/quote]
I didn't say it did :o
That's assuming that if people do show and do well they may want to breed from a champion dog. Why go on about a fabulous Pedigree if it can't be perpetuated
-
Seeing the add on the KC site, and with it extolling the virtues of the Pedigreess of both dam and sire (and lets face it £700 is not cheap) it just struck me as odd that basically after all that it seemed to be saying 'but don't try to show'.
Quote from your last post......
-
Seeing the add on the KC site, and with it extolling the virtues of the Pedigreess of both dam and sire (and lets face it £700 is not cheap) it just struck me as odd that basically after all that it seemed to be saying 'but don't try to show'.
Quote from your last post......
It seems to me that you are taking it out of context to what I said. I went to to say:
That's assuming that if people do show and do well they may want to breed from a champion dog. Why go on about a fabulous Pedigree if it can't be perpetuated
Doesn't that make it obvious that I know they can be shown, even when endorsed :huh:
-
Sorry very confusing, I will keep my posts to myself
-
Penfold, you hit the nail right on the head for me.
People keep pushing for new dog owners (me soon hopefully!) to go to 'proper' breeders. I see guidelines of what is considered a proper breeder, I have found websites with a listing of 'registered' breeders, and nine times out of ten they are the least informative *online* about their dogs. As if that's not bad enough, the ones who /do/ have a website (beautiful pictures, videos, scanned pedigree papers, etc.) the majority of them have stopped breeding or are on pause for a year or more! And I can count all of these websites on one hand.
I remember getting frustrated and just skimming through free ad websites (who at least show their puppies and, though possibly falsely, advertise that they are KC registered and health tested) just to see where the hell I could get a pup if I were to remain in the U.K. for another year. No worries as I wouldn't buy them but if I had a lot less willpower and common sense...
I consider myself a responsible pet owner with a lot of ambition for my future dog. I want the right puppy but damn, Ethical Breeders (tm), you make it so hard to find you and trust you!
With this ability to 'endorse' puppies and giving breeders a bit more control over their dogs, I see no reason then why they can't make themselves more visible to the 'pet market'. Breeders complain there are too many dogs in pounds, but there are too many dogs there because we can't get a decently bred puppy without waiting 5 years and visiting half of England's country side!
-
I think this thread should be put to bed now - we've discussed endorsements and the reasons for them at length now and it's all getting a bit confusing :D
With this ability to 'endorse' puppies and giving breeders a bit more control over their dogs, I see no reason then why they can't make themselves more visible to the 'pet market'. Breeders complain there are too many dogs in pounds, but there are too many dogs there because we can't get a decently bred puppy without waiting 5 years and visiting half of England's country side!
Blaming the rescue situation on the fact it's too difficult to find a good breeder is so far from the truth that I'm not sure where to start so probably best to leave it for another thread :005: Suffice to say we have plenty of new puppy owning members who have not had to wait 5 years for a puppy or had to visit half of England's countryside :huh: However feel free to start another thread if you want to have a sensible discussion on how to find a good breeder :D