CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: louise1608 on December 21, 2011, 10:12:57 AM
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Hi guys - I honestly did not know where to put this so apologies if this is the wrong place!
I bought Alfie just before a few months before my son was born...we knew this was coming but I had no idea this would happen. Now Ryan is walking around he has mostly ignored alfie...but for the last few days the poor dog is all he's been interested in...he's been grabbing hold of his tail and running after him, pulling his ears and grabbing handfuls of fur to pull. Alfie of course does not retaliate...he is soft as a brush and has tried to make friends with ryan a few times by licking his face but that just makes alfie his main target again. The thing is alfie is pretty scared of ryan now - when he's around he'll curl up and hide in his bed and won't even take treats...I tested this theory with one of those chewy bacon treats and alfie wouldn't touch it when ryan was on the floor but as soon as I put him in his high chair he ate it..but still cautious with it. I don't know what to do - ryan is told no when he does these things to alfie but I think the no in my firm voice just makes alfie even more nervous... I have to give ryan a little smack on the arm to make him loosen his grip... I don't want to have to keep them separated I just want them to be friends! I know ryan will grow out of this, I was just wondering if you guys had any suggestions on how to make this easier on alfie..I dont want him to be scared :embarassed:
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Ah, it is so hard to explain to a 17 month old child.................they just grab out with excitement, and don't always realise their own strength.
I had the same problem when my grandson visited..............he would chase Lily all over the place, and she would end up hiding from him. They were great mates in the end though.
My daughter actually bought Joseph a toy dog, and she would just keep stroking it at home, and treating it gently................I don't know if it is this that did the trick, but he did eventually begin stroking rather than pulling at Lily's ears.
I do hope it all gets sorted. It is a worrying time. :luv: :luv:
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My mum bought a toy dog for him at her house as he was really going for her dogs...she gave him to him and he picked it up and threw it across the room...shes been trying every week but its nothing working so far he is just a brute :005:
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You will need to keep them apart until Ryan learns not to hurt Alfie. Toddlers are like puppies, so unpredictable and they do not realise that they are hurting. Many years ago I knew a couple whose small child was really cruel to their puppy. The puppy grew into a fear aggressive dog and eventually had to be PTS.
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havent had young children and dogs myself, but i know a few on here use "gates" to keep dogs and children apart. Sure someone will be along soon with first hand advice though.
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My mum bought a toy dog for him at her house as he was really going for her dogs...she gave him to him and he picked it up and threw it across the room...shes been trying every week but its nothing working so far he is just a brute :005:
I find this quite disturbing ph34r
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Please try to keep them
separated for now ,it
isn't going to be for always, just
until Ryan is able to approach
Alfie nicely.
They are both so young it's for
the best at the moment :D
steffxxx
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As the owner of a 4 yr old cocker and Mum to a 14.5 month old, I know exactly where you are at.... and I don't find the suggestions of a toy dog, or comments on his reaction to the toy dog, particularly relevent... at 14 months old your son has no concept of empathy... he cannot understand that his actions are worrying your dog, and certainly won't equate how he treats a stuffed toy (in our house Winnie the Pooh is alternately hugged and thrown) to how he should or would treat a real animal - most things are thrown at this age... ;)
We have been "managing" all interactions between Isobel and our dog (Honey) from birth... Isobel loves to sit with a bag of treats and feed Honey, but knows to ignore her unless we are managing the interaction... this is something you really need to instill in your son... do it gently and consistently... when you are playing with him, make a point of saying "lets come over here so the doggie has some space" or "we don't walk up to the doggie, let's go this way instead". We use playpens, gates and room dividers to ensure dog and baby are not left unsupervised with access to each other. We encourage gently stroking when we know Honey will be receptive to it.
To be honest, smacking your child's arm to stop him grabbing the dog's fur is only going to encourage him to mimic smacking behaviour.... if your son does grab at the dog's fur, hold his forearm above the wrist - you can prevent him pulling back and hurting your dog, and this action naturally encourages a child to loosen their grip... you can then help your son to stroke the dog, saying something like "gently with the doggie". Then distract your son away from the dog, and praise your dog for tolerating your son's attentions... ;)
You might find this a useful article to read - http://dogsandbabies.wordpress.com/2011/02/24/helping-toddlers-not-be-magnetized-to-dogs-part-3/ (http://dogsandbabies.wordpress.com/2011/02/24/helping-toddlers-not-be-magnetized-to-dogs-part-3/)
Just another little comment - please be very observant of your dog's body language around your son, and step in at the slightest sign of discomfort... you don't want to create a situation where your dog feels he has to defend himself against your son because he isn't confident that you will keep him safe. Honey will often growl/grumble if Isobel is approaching her... it's not a worrying growl, as her body language remains utterly relaxed, it's her way of saying to us "Help" - depending on the situation we either just supervise more closely, show Honey a way of getting herself out of the situation or we distract Isobel...
We do regular stints of Isobel approaching Honey with a treat, so that Honey learns that Isobel being close by is a good thing...
But you absolutely must ensure they have their own space and learn to ignore each other before you can ever hope for them to be friends...
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Hi
Sorry to read your post. My daughter was just 3 when we got Florence so was out of the toddler phase. Hopefully someone else with a little one will be on to give some advice in a while but wanted to send you some support
I wouldn't worry about the throwing of the toy dog- chucking stuff is what toddler's do. Your son isn't being bad- he's just learning about the dog in the brash way that toddlers do.
Personally speaking I'd go for separation as much as possible when your son is on the loose. I'm also wondering about doing something like dog class with your dog- something that really bonds you and the dog togehter. I've found when we have crazy toddlers in the house Florence comes to me for reassurance/ safety- so if you have a super strong bond with each other perhaps it might help?
I'd also say that by 2.5 your son will be more predictable/ calm so this won't last forever. It will also become easier once spring comes and your son can tire himself out outside rather than with the dog. So it's probably about getting through this winter.
Good luck
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Hi again everyone - thank you so much for all of your helpful responses. :lol2:
I never thought anything of him throwing the toy dog he's going through a phase atm (or I HOPE its a face!) where he throws absolutely anything he can pick up - toys, books, teddies...he even tried to pick up his ride on car and I'm sure if he could have lifted it high enough he would have thrown that too! It's just what babies do.
I knew this would happen eventually which is why since he was a pup we have always gently tugged his ears and fur, taken food and treats away etc. We insisted on doing this so that we knew he would tolerate a bit of annoyance it would be too much of a risk not to test him really. I'm not saying I would ever 100% trust him as you never can - but as close to 100% as I can be.
I've watched them throughout the day and have tried to distract ryan with toys that makes lots of music and noise so that alfie can make a quick getaway - when it looked like he wasnt going to leave him alone I opened the stair gate and left alfie go upstairs as he loves to go up and sleep on our bed though isn't usually aloud. Don't think I've ever seen him move so fast! :005: After ryans nap I brought them both down to the living room and tried for the millionth time to show ryan how to stroke him gently... alfie licked his face and he tried to hit him but I was ready for it and pulled him away...poor alfie he just wants to be friends!
Also thanks for the advice on how to make ryan let go....this morning he caught me very much off guard - he had such a tight grip on his fur that if I had tried to pull him off he would have really hurt him! >:(
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So pleased we're through the throwing things phase...well until we hit the teenage years :005:
Glad things are going a bit better today :D
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Oh god don't make me think about him being a teenager...we made a deal when he was born that he would stay tiny forever just the way he was but look at him going back on it and growing up! >:D
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Personally I'd keep them separate untill your son can learn not to hurt your dog, dong it buy trial & error really won't help your dog....one day he gets stroked nicely the next he gets a lump of furr pulled out him I'm with the dog n this one.....run, hide & stay well away! :shades:
Your very lucky to have such an accommodating dog others would of attacked your son buy now!
We got Holly when our boys were 3.5yrs & the other 8 months so have all grown up together not once has either of them smacked, pulled or hurt her, I guess I'm quite lucky, they learnt very early on how to be around her copying my actions. If either of them lifted a hand, pulled or did anything to upset Holly they would of been instantly punished put on the 'naughty step' and explained why the behaviour was unacceptable... at 14 months he's more than old enough to understand.
:blink:
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Holly I agree with you, I am on alfie's side he has been an absolute angel with ryan and we have had him since before ryan was born they have also grown up together, but I don't believe that sitting ryan down and explaining that he shouldnt hurt alfie will help at all he won't understand. He does understand when I say no but chooses whether or not he will listen at the time. He does get punished by being put in baby jail (his travel cot) :005: with no toys when hes been bad as I wanted to put that in place early but other than that there really isnt much I can do..babies will be babies and I will persivere but I am on alfies side not my sons what hes doing isnt acceptable
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Holly I agree with you, I am on alfie's side he has been an absolute angel with ryan and we have had him since before ryan was born they have also grown up together, but I don't believe that sitting ryan down and explaining that he shouldnt hurt alfie will help at all he won't understand. He does understand when I say no but chooses whether or not he will listen at the time. He does get punished by being put in baby jail (his travel cot) :005: with no toys when hes been bad as I wanted to put that in place early but other than that there really isnt much I can do..babies will be babies and I will persivere but I am on alfies side not my sons what hes doing isnt acceptable
Toddlers understand a lot more than you think, agree with Holly, keep them separate. You can reason with a child but not with a dog.
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Why wouldn't he understand...at 14 months he understands more than you think, vague memory of at that age they understand around 200 words ((can only say a handful)) its never to early to explain reasoning, I'm in the non smacking group...for me to even tap his hand for an undesirable behaviour in my opinion is completely counter productive ((eg my sister in law has three boys, they were all bashing lumps out each other...she grabbed each one & smacked them....teaching them it's ok to hit, just makes me laugh at how crazy that sounds))
Baby jail :005: love it!
LynneB) you beat me :005:
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I know I honestly don't smack him but hes never put me in a position like that before, I was worried about Alfie and his reaction to ryan actually causing him pain...whenever he's been bad its always been baby jail and never a smack and I hope that I'm not judged for that reaction...and it didn't leave a mark..it really was more of a tap but I still cannot defend myself it was definately the wrong reaction. I will seperate them if it is needed but I really don't want to - I hope that this is a phase as he has been toddling about for 5 months and its only the last few days he's been hitting alfie - i keep throwing distractions at him to stop him going near him - ill keep you all updated, hopefully with good posts and not bad! :luv:
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I'm sure it'll be fine, I wasn't judging you atall, I'd just make sure your dogs always got his own space, an escape route & maybe only well supervised time around your little one untill he learns the doggy rules ((maybe a treat for each when they both sit nicely in the same room :005: I'm sure doggy biscuits would be fine for both)) :005:
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:005: ryan is always sneaking alfies food haha! and i would never ever leave them unsupervised - i cant remember the last time i went even to the loo without ryan :P
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:005: ryan is always sneaking alfies food haha! and i would never ever leave them unsupervised - i cant remember the last time i went even to the loo without ryan :P
I hear ya on that one :005:
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Just to say, while toddlers can understand words, instructions etc, they don't have the self-control to follow rules all the time, and don't have empathy to appreciate why they need to be gentle with animals etc. Even supernanny doesn't advise things like naughty steps until age 3.... :-\ I'm aware everyone has differing opinions on parenting etc, and as a dog forum this isn't the place for a major discussion on the subject, but I think rather than seeing it as being on one side or the other, you need to view it that both of them need to learn to live with each other and you need to facilitate that... lots of positive time together, and kept seperate when either one of them is not in the right frame of mind... ;)
And I defy any of you to come and "reason" with Isobel... understanding some boundaries, yes, absolutely - as I say, she is well aware of the fact that she isn't to approach the dog bed etc, but she has no concept of "reasoning". :005:
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There was 18 mths between my old cocker and my first childs birth. My cocker wasn't really keen on babies and so from day one it was all geared to keeping Bonnie and son safe from each other. My son was also a challenge and I'm pretty certain he really thought his name was "No" for the first couple of years after his birth because he hated being restrained, and I don't mean physically he just couldn't accept No without a reason. I do know as far as boys go he was not the norm, he had a lot more thinking power and understanding even from a young age. As soon as he started to crawl we had to ensure no harm came to either him or the dog and since he walked at 9mths reasoning had to quickly follow. If he was heavy handed with Bonnie or intent on doing something that would hurt her, he was stopped with a NO and a basic explanation given, even if it was just " no, hurt Bonnie, arh poor Bonnie", then I always tried distraction whilst he carried on telling me "no, hurt Bonnie" (that was basically a repeat of what I'd said, not him wanting to continue to hurt her :005:) a few times more (he was quite a talker, even at 14 mths). We just built on that and never had any issues, did the same for my second and third son.
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I don't think it's ever two early to give a reason along with saying No... it's the only way they can learn anything! I've always spoke to and treated my children as if they understand from being tiny...to treat them like clueless little beings with no verbal reasoning just seems odd to me! I think you get out of your children what you put in....same with dogs and training :005: :blink:
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Oh, I agree with the fact that you should give the reason... as I said, we've been doing this from day one... the comment about reasoning was more in response to suggestions that you can reason with a toddler... ;)
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Little update - I think Ryan was going through some kind of phase :dunno:
I've been ready to grab the little monster every time he's gone near Alfie since I posted this thread but he hasn't bothered! I've said no when he looks like he's going to give Alfie a smack and he's turned around and looked at me like I was being unreasonable! But wandered off and grabbed a toy instead...he doesn't keep away from him all the time and I wouldnt want him to - but Alfie is not backing off anymore, I promised him I would protect him lol :005:
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Glad all seems to be settling down. :luv: