CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: mkidd on December 23, 2011, 10:34:51 AM
-
Hi all
Been working on Maisy's (6 months old) recall a lot lately and she is coming along really well. She will come back when called everytime, apart from when other dogs are around when she will just totally switch off and ignore me and wander off with them.....
I thought we were getting somewhere as for the past week she has had a play with a few dogs and then come away when i called her, but this morning she went off to play with another dog and literally wandered off a few hundred yards with it and i had to walk after her to get her attention to come back to me.
Is it just a chase of keeping pushing on with the training and one day it will all fall into place or is there something i can do to help this along?
-
Diesel is 8 months - Has excellent recall on his own and excellent recall when walking with other dogs - he will get distracted when he see's other dogs but i dont stop or make a fuss - just smile and keep on walking and diesel will follow as he sees im not hanging about - however with some really friendly playful dogs he will go deaf
-
Have you considered using a whistle? Max's recall is a bit selective when I call him using his name but with the whistle he comes every time even when playing with other dogs. The only issue with this is that i worry what I'd do if I lost my whistle!!!! I used Top Barks method - it is fantastic.
-
Diesel is half way through this training so i can use the whistle yet when he isnt paying attention as he has to respond to it everytime just now but the recall he has with half way through training is excellent
-
Have you considered using a whistle? Max's recall is a bit selective when I call him using his name but with the whistle he comes every time even when playing with other dogs. The only issue with this is that i worry what I'd do if I lost my whistle!!!! I used Top Barks method - it is fantastic.
I am 10 days into Top Barks' recall training and Maisy is responding well to that. I was thinking that she may "hear" the whistle better than me calling her name so hopefully this will help.
-
Personally, at the moment i wouldnt even call her when she is playing with other dogs. Walk over to her with a high value treat and let her see it, and wait till she comes to you. Believe me, i know from experience how difficult it can be to distract them, but whilst you are calling her and she is ignoring you, you are actually training her to ignore you.
If you dont have time for her to play with other dogs, then i would put her on a lead when you see them and keep reward her when she looks at you rather than the dogs.
She is coming upto "that age" as well, so the more you can do to have a successful recall most of the time the better.
-
Great advice from black taz. :shades:
-
Personally, at the moment i wouldnt even call her when she is playing with other dogs. Walk over to her with a high value treat and let her see it, and wait till she comes to you. Believe me, i know from experience how difficult it can be to distract them, but whilst you are calling her and she is ignoring you, you are actually training her to ignore you.
If you dont have time for her to play with other dogs, then i would put her on a lead when you see them and keep reward her when she looks at you rather than the dogs.
She is coming upto "that age" as well, so the more you can do to have a successful recall most of the time the better.
Good idea. This morning it didnt help that the chap with the other dog just walked off in the opposite direction and kept walking while i was clearly trying to catch him up to get Maisy back!
-
Have you considered using a whistle? Max's recall is a bit selective when I call him using his name but with the whistle he comes every time even when playing with other dogs. The only issue with this is that i worry what I'd do if I lost my whistle!!!! I used Top Barks method - it is fantastic.
I am 10 days into Top Barks' recall training and Maisy is responding well to that. I was thinking that she may "hear" the whistle better than me calling her name so hopefully this will help.
The time scale on the plan is not set in stone,it takes as long as it does, I think the other key element to any recall is to make yourself as fun as possible on walks, these days i have problems making my lot actually go away from me as i do work really hard on providing as much entertainment for my lot when we are out. My puppy went through lots of ups and downs with recall, seemed to get it really well early on as we started at 8 weeks but as he got older we had a few blips, at thirteen months it's come right again.
-
The time scale on the plan is not set in stone,it takes as long as it does, I think the other key element to any recall is to make yourself as fun as possible on walks, these days i have problems making my lot actually go away from me as i do work really hard on providing as much entertainment for my lot when we are out. My puppy went through lots of ups and downs with recall, seemed to get it really well early on as we started at 8 weeks but as he got older we had a few blips, at thirteen months it's come right again.
I will try this a bit more. At the moment we play fetch a lot, but would welcome any tips on ways to make it a bit more fun!?
Just back from a walk as well where Maisy disappeared after another dog and again i had to chase her down...twice in one day, fun!
-
have you used a long line before?
-
No as I always felt that this would restrict her on her walks, but if it will help with the recall (and ignoring other dogs) then it will be worth a shot.
-
I thought we were getting somewhere as for the past week she has had a play with a few dogs and then come away when i called her, but this morning she went off to play with another dog and literally wandered off a few hundred yards with it and i had to walk after her to get her attention to come back to me.
Is it just a chase of keeping pushing on with the training and one day it will all fall into place or is there something i can do to help this along?
I was taught that one should make 3 things clear to a dog so that they will come when called:
Number 1: good things happen when you come (praise/food/toys).
Number 2: bad things happen when you don't come (game over/no food/no toys/etc...).
Number 3: Coming when called doesn't necessarily mean that you can't go back to what you were originally doing in the first place.
Perhaps your dog is beginning to fail to come when called off playing with other dogs, because she's learned that when you call the game is over?
I randomly call my dogs when playing with other dogs or with each other, but allow them to return to their play so that they never get it into their heads that I'm the one always putting an end to their fun and games.
Personally, I train my dogs to completely ignore other dogs on a short lead before progressing to ignoring them on a long line and eventually to off-lead obedience. It's so much more difficult to train for appropriate behaviors once a dog has made a habit of doing something like running off after strange dogs. A long line give your more control when training and makes it so that the always dog succeeds in recall training even if it's only because you're guiding her back in.
A reliable recall is never something that just falls into place or something a dog grows into. It's something you have to work on from day one and reinforce every day of a dog's life.
-
Quote...A long line give your more control when training and makes it so that the always dog succeeds in recall training even if it's only because you're guiding her back in.
I find this the best at the moment..As you can guide your dog in by the lead if he/she starts to wonder...And has said (use your silly voice also to guide your dog back....(make it a game) that your dog will enjoy.....
-
Thanks so much for the advice everyone. I will implement immediately.
One quick Q on long lines. Should the line just flail behind the dog or should I be holding one end of it? Assume if it is left to flail the the dog has to be kept within a close vacinity so I can grab the line if required, otherwise it kind of defeats the object?
-
Guide it back in..by gently retrieving the line....
No do not let the line trail behind....
-
So hold the end of the line at all times and pick up the slack? Will Maisy not just feel like she is on a lead walk the whole time?
-
and sorry for the constant questions, but was looking at long line online last night and there are all sorts of different techniques to use them and the most common one was to simply let the lead drag behind the dog and only pick it up if necessary to help a recall or prevent chasing other dogs. Just want to get it 100% right moving forwards.
-
You can leave it trailing and step on the end as she runs past.... just make sure dog is wearing a harness so you don't jerk the neck.
It would be rather dangerous to keep hold of a longline while a dog was actually playing, as you'd get tied up in 3 seconds flat!!! :005:
-
I give up...
One says..You can leave it trailing and step on the end as she runs past.... .
And i say another its very miss leading...To the person..in Question
May be diferent the way you go about after all you are the exspert!!!
With the lead trailing behind the poor dog.... The dog thinks there is some thing draging behind him very misleading for the poor animal....
-
personally i find holding the line is more dangerous not only to yourself but potential to your dog and other humans/dogs.
Last year when Kira hurt her shoulder, once she could have a bit more freedom i put her on a long line with a harness to give her a bit more freedom but held it so she couldnt go to fast, unfortunately she went faster than i expected and finished up jerking her shoulder again and put her recovering back another couple of weeks. Also had a couple of cases where it got wrapped round me/other people. Now if i need to use it i let it trail
-
personally i find holding the line is more dangerous not only to yourself but potential to your dog and other humans/dogs.
Last year when Kira hurt her shoulder, once she could have a bit more freedom i put her on a long line with a harness to give her a bit more freedom but held it so she couldnt go to fast, unfortunately she went faster than i expected and finished up jerking her shoulder again and put her recovering back another couple of weeks. Also had a couple of cases where it got wrapped round me/other people. Now if i need to use it i let it trail
That's why i said to retrieve the line in at the same time...Thus it would not hurt the dog nor jerk the dog....when retrieving the line back in...But to keep your dog steadily coming back to you...
-
When I followed Top Barks recall thread I had a 10m long line and generally let it trail along the ground but with me keeping near the end to use if I needed to reel him in when i whistled him. Having said that he was at the age where we stayed fairly close to eachother. I did think it seemed quite heavy for him to drag along so probably made him run a bit slower. If she is going to run off quite a distance then I think you may need to keep hold of the end until recall is relieable.
-
All trainers train different to others theres never two the same and no dowt others trainers will criticize others in the way they train animals....
I could go on to say my trainer is a top man in his field and no dowt there will all ways be some else that will criticize in his methereds in the way he trains dogs..So its always going to be a no win.. situation..
The same with books one would argue the point as to who is the best writer of books..Some one will always say diferent!!
Try one of Victoria ..it has squirrels in for the recall.. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXZPwZjipS0 even
-
So hold the end of the line at all times and pick up the slack? Will Maisy not just feel like she is on a lead walk the whole time?
I would let it trail.... as you say, she cannot behave as if off lead when it is being held, and she would not be able to play with other dogs, so that defeats the purpose...
This is how the long line is used for this purpose (recall away from other dogs) at the training school we use. In other situations it may be appropriate to hold the line (if you are setting up a known chase/aggression situation so you want immediate control, for example) but for general use it is normally advised that you leave the line trailing - it just means you have 10metres of rope to grab hold of to guide your dog back in once you need to stop play rather than having to try and grab the dog (which turns into a fantastic game of chase for your dog!).
The video Seaangler linked to is a lovely illustration of not moving too fast when training a recall command - when the dogs were distracted by the squirrel, the owner was advised not to even attempt to call the dogs, but wait until they were going to be receptive again... :D
Yes, some dogs behave differently on a long-line (Honey is one of them) and if you have a dog that behaves perfectly on a long-line but turns deaf the second it is removed, many people on here have had success with gradually chopping 1 foot off the end of the line every few days so the dog doesn't realise the weight is reducing.
-
good suggestions from Karma re shortening the line, however you could also try a lighter line as well.
Alfie spent around 6 months dragging a line round, but I have realized it is what you do with your dog when they are with you that is so important.
-
Well thanks to everyone for the info. Extremely useful, as expected!
I have already started to "play" much more with Maisy when we are out on walks (fetch, hiding her dummy in undergrowth, hide & seek) and she is already responding well to this and is looking to me much more during the walk. Hopefully with time this will help with her separation from other dogs (not seen any since my first post...). Had to convert an old bag into a toy carrier as my coat pockets were getting absolutely filthy though...!
Have also ordered a long line and harness for her to help with this aspect of the training.