CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: tritonx on February 07, 2012, 02:30:17 AM
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I am one of those awful owners with an aggressive dog I read about on this board. I am completed flummoxed and a fair bit horrified. Fraser is now 2 1/2, a more affectionate, happy, playful dog you'll never find. However, in the last few months, very isolated incidents, on leash, he's growled ferociously at other dogs on greeting. 99% of the time, greetings are respectful and careful, especially with bigger dogs. Once he's assured the other dog is friendly, he just wants to play. In the last 6 months or so, he's been getting more male doggish, barking in full display mode at certain, but not all dogs, who are barking at him from behind fences. As he approaches the property, he gets all struttish and casting about to see if the dog he doesn't like is on the other side of the fence, and if it is, he races toward it (on leash) and barks and growls as though he saying, I'll do you, just give me a chance.
Yesterday, he was approached by a year old neutered male Westie that was all waggy tailed and friendly and at first Fraser was wagging and friendly and then all of a sudden, went for him all snarly.Both dogs on leash. No damage and once I'd pulled him off, he wandered about sniffing things and was even wagging his tail at the dog as the owner and I talked, trying to figure out what had happened and why. Luckily, she was a calm, doggie lady and not angry about it. Then tonight, on our evening walk, I let Fraser off the leash in a park where I never see people at that time of evening. A girl and her leashed small dog approached and when Fraser saw them, he raced over and started to attack the small dog. Once again, no damage, but I had a hard time hauling him off as he was going through my arms and legs to get at it. The girl said the small dog was a rescue from a puppy mill, about 4 year old entire male. The dog did not as far as I could see approach Fraser in an unfriendly way, though the girl said the little fellow didn't know how to play as he was rescued from a puppy mill. The pattern seems to be small male dog, often young ones, and Fraser usually goes from tail wagging to aggression. This time he was off leash, so that wasn't a factor. I used to be able to reassure people that my dog was friendly, but not any more. What makes it difficult is that there's no clear sign beforehand that he's going to get aggressive. He can be wagging as he usually does when he wants to meet a dog and then he's full bore. Thoughts? Advice?
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What is happening is your are meeting the dog head on....
This is from one of Victoria Stilwels show...(she is now back in England by the way)....
What i seen her do with the same behavoior as you are going through....Is you need to ask the person whos dog you are meeting(or haveing probs with) to walk her dog in front of you so you can bring your dog slowly from behind so your dog get to smell the Butt end of the other dog and keep walking when your dog is busy smelling away so the meeting is not agresive so they get use to one another...and visa versa...
can but try....
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I am one of those awful owners with an aggressive dog I read about on this board. I am completed flummoxed and a fair bit horrified.
Owners of agressive dogs are not awful ;) My Ben would fit into that category easily on an off day! I wouldn't spend too much time being flummoxed, I would try to get some advice from a good behaviourist about what is happening (and I don't mean Victoria Stilwell ph34r) Apologies to anyone who likes her, but I think its a bit scary to try to copy what you see on the TV without having a good understanding of what is actually happening. For a lot of us caring and well meaning owners, we are just not knowledgable or experienced enough to really know why our dogs display certain behaviours and I do think that when there are issues with agression it is time to call a professional for advice. I've seen them do open heart surgery on TV but I wouldn't have a go at it myself ;)
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I'm not familiar with Victoria Stilwell, though just on the face of it, it would be impractical on a regular walk where we pass many dogs going the opposite way to do a rear first arrangement. Most people just want to let them greet and sniff and then move on. Right now I'm trying to see the pattern and so far it's small dog, male, often young though not always. It seems to me in general he's becoming more aggressive. I'm just back from a walk where I kept him on fairly short leash as we went past the garden where he is ready to go full display at the dog behind the fence. But, on the way out the door, Fraser was on his leash, I turned to lock the door and was almost pulled off my feet by Fraser racing to the end of his leash, barking in full voice at a couple of labs on the other side of the street walking peaceably alongside their owner. Just the sight of them set him off. He's definitely much more reactive these days. I know people seem to attribute a lot to anal glands, so wondering about this. In late December, Fraser went in for a groom and had his anal glands emptied. Recently he's been scooting a bit after pooping. He often poops two to three times on a walk and by the second or third ones they're quite soft, so I've been assuming he's scooting for that reason (sticky bum). I noticed today his two poops were not soft, but he still scooted. Could that cause a change in behaviour? He did have a couple of days of virtual no pooping when I ran out of pumpkin and we were traveling and I was just on the point of taking him to the vet, when he got back to regular poop sched. I'm prepared to see a behaviourist about what's going on as I certainly don't want him ever causing harm to another dog. Right now I think it's all sound and fury, but who knows. Not pleasant to see your normally soppy pup in that state.
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I have an aggressive dog as well :shades:. What I found enormously helpful was to learn about canine body language, not all tail wagging is a friendly sign ;)
Brenda Aloffs Canine body language is a great book and there's loads of stuff on the internet :-*
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Also, not all dogs you meet would be happy to have another dog come up behind them...
At our training school we have a simple rule of "Do not allow dogs to meet on-lead". I know the recent incident was off-lead, but your post suggests that you have had him greet on-lead dogs regularly, that he has reacted several times, and now it is escalating? If he is put in the position of having to react aggressively because he cannot run away (as occurs in an on-lead greeting) he is practising this behaviour, and it will spill over into when he is off-lead, because he learns that it works.
I really think it would be a good idea to work with a behaviourist who can observe his whole range of interactions with other dogs, and ideally work with stooge dogs to help him learn how to be calm around other dogs.
If you are confident with clicker training, Click to Calm is a great book and might help you in the meantime.
The Look at That game will also help - if he looks at another dog (BEFORE he lunges/reacts) click and treat, and at the same time step away from the other dog - but this is much easier to acheive working with stooge dogs so that he is used to it before the unpredictability of when you meet dogs out and about. In the meantime do not put him in the position of meeting dogs on-lead - cross the road, turn around and walk a different way, but do not walk him head on towards another on-lead dog. I know it's a pain, but every time he reacts to another dog, he is establishing the behaviour as an acceptable (to him) way of dealing with his fear. There are literally 4 dogs who Honey will greet on-lead without becoming fearful (and then aggressive if were to let it get that far) - if we can't avoid a dog entirely, I get as far out of the way as possible, ask her to sit and hand feed her treats as the dog (hopefully) walks by. Some people like to try and sabotage our avoidance measures, and I just make a swift exit - my dog's behaviour is more important than whether they think I'm rude/wierd or whatever... ;)
If Honey is on-lead and is approached by an off-lead dog, I drop the lead (if it is safe to do so) so - she will still tell it to get lost at this point, but it is less likely to lead to her being less tolerant of other dogs for the rest of the day, as she doesn't feel as threatened. If it's not safe enough to drop the lead, I just walk away as quickly as possible (i don't care where at that point).
While it's an understandable reaction, keeping him on a shorter leash is likely to escalate the problem, as he will have less freedom to display any avoidance strategies or calming signals. Use treats to keep him focussed on you when passing gardens where you know he becomes uneasy (or cross the road and pass them at a distance).
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Thanks for the helpful responses. I'll look into the books mentioned and Karma, thanks for the detailed description of dealing with the situation. What got me unnerved is that 99% of the time, he happily greets other dogs. It's that unpredictable (to me) emerging 1% that seems so out of character. I don't have the option of having him off leash in our public places as it's not allowed and Fraser has developed the habit of just sitting down when he sees another dog as he wants to greet, but I certainly can just walk him past dogs as he's treat mad. The kennel where I occasionally leave him has a trainer there who does Ttouch (I think) or at least is a reward based, non dominance theory person. I'll see if she does consultations as she already knows Fraser and presumably has seen him interact with other dogs. They have paddocks and put the dogs together for play time by size and temperament.
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Been there and got the tshirt when Louie was a similar age. He still sometimes finds it hard if a dog approaches him when he's on lead but I can now trust him to cope to the point he was able to attend Manchester Champ show with us in January after taking part in some YKC events and he was chilled and enjoyed the attention.
In Lou's case we put it down to neutering him and it took away some of the hormones that helped him deal with stress. As long as he could get away from meeting other dogs, he was fine. We put him on a calming supplement (at the time we used the Petspec calmer) and also met up with a stooge dog that was absolutely bomb proof but if Lou tried a pop at her, she only had to look at him for him to know that this wasn't acceptable. Louie has always been one to keep himself to himself but he does tend to like to protect Heidi if she barks and will also be protective of me so we also did a lot of work on sharing so I can actually say hello to another dog in his presence and give him stress free walks on his own.
First step needs to be to identify the triggers, is it stress? My friend walks her nervy dog in a thundershirt and that has helped a lot.
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Bob also has a problem when he approaches other dog on lead.... or should i say when they approach him,
I too have always been taught, at both the training classes i go to that you should not
greet other dog if they are on lead, because your dog cannot control the situation if he is on lead..
i found out it was mostly my fault.. as i would tense up not knowing what Bob would do
if he was going to be nice, or if he was going to have a go.. the other thing i would find myself doing was to pull him away from the other dog, and this would always make him, have a go....
off lead he was much better. but again i would make thing worse as i got very nervous if another off lead dog would come over to us.. so i would call him and put him back on his lead...
But thank you to COL and all the good advice he is now fine off lead and i don’t panic any more
(Much) but what really helped me the most was going on the COL meet ups.. where i got lots of help
And advice and hand on experience with all the other cockers and owners.
He is still not very good on lead meeting other dogs....
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Quote...If Honey is on-lead and is approached by an off-lead dog, I drop the lead (if it is safe to do so) so - she will still tell it to get lost at this point,
Not always the case karma...Some dogs can also come up all submisive wagging tails and so forth...And be most agressive in an instent and reverse rolls... ...And one in perticulore is the welsh Border collie...
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I am one of those awful owners with an aggressive dog I read about on this board.
But you are not an awful owner because you are trying to do something about the situation rather than just ignoring it. I posted recently about Freddie being attacked by an Alsatian and the owner gave the "He's never done that before" response (which I don't believe as the dog had growled at Freddie before) rather than a "Oh dear, I don't know why he did that, I'll have to sort this out." I really hope you get some good advice from a behaviourist. Oh, and I see on lots of replies about new behaviours that people often recommend a check up at the vet just to make sure there is no underlying physical problem that could be causing a change in behaviour. Good luck. ;)
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Quote...If Honey is on-lead and is approached by an off-lead dog, I drop the lead (if it is safe to do so) so - she will still tell it to get lost at this point,
Not always the case karma...Some dogs can also come up all submisive wagging tails and so forth...And be most agressive in an instent and reverse rolls... ...And one in perticulore is the welsh Border collie...
Frankly I don't care about the other dog at that point - I am acting to minimise the stress and reaction of my dog. If it is safe to drop the lead (ie not on a road) I will drop it and let Honey act. If she is on lead, not only would she react to the approaching dog, but she would then have her interactions with any other dog (whether she was on or off lead) adversely affected for several days.
And the only Welsh Border Collie we see is the soppiest dog out...
To the OP, that does raise another important thing for you to bear in mind - if a dog has been put in a stressful situation where it has been "forced" to react, adrenelin levels remain raised for several days, so they are more likely to react in situations where normally they would not.
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There's one thing I still don't understand though. As I say, 99% of the time, he's great with other dogs. I don't get the impression he's scared of them, in fact, he seems keen to go over and interact and from a distance when he spots a dog is keen to meet. If one is being walked ahead, he'll start to walk faster to try to catch up. He's a very social dog, both with humans and other dogs. It's just this vary occasional (but recently escalating) behaviour that is surprising, considering the overall friendliness. I can see how it would be helpful to go a walkies with a behaviourist who is more experienced at reading dog behaviour as I must be missing subtle clues. Even watching the situation carefully as I've started to do, I cannot see the moment of trigger from Fraser doing the usual things of successful greeting to sudden snarling aggression (nor what it is in the other dog's behaviour that might have prompted the shift.) And, in real world terms, when I'm out walking him, I have mittens on, a leash in one hand and a cane in the other and sometimes I'm fumbling with doggie bags when someone with dog on leash pulls abreast and asks if the dogs can greet. Heh, and a slightly loose toque that has a habit of dropping over my eyes at moments like this.
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Well karma...I have some fifty years of owning dogs and knowing how they will react to i do not think you know the hafe of how a lot of dogs do behave being a lot younger than my self and not having the experience that i have had over the years owning some thirty dogs in my life time..You may have read the books.... I have done the time with them....
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I can see how it would be helpful to go a walkies with a behaviourist who is more experienced at reading dog behaviour as I must be missing subtle clues. Even watching the situation carefully as I've started to do, I cannot see the moment of trigger from Fraser doing the usual things of successful greeting to sudden snarling aggression (nor what it is in the other dog's behaviour that might have prompted the shift.)
I think you are spot on - it is so hard to always spot the triggers, and also to read body language. My Ben is nearly 9 and I can tell now exactly what he is going to do and how he will respond in nearly all situations. I have only had Harry 2 years (he is nearly 3) and I just can not work out what he is thinking and like you say with Fraser the body language is sometimes confusing, I do think having an objective and experienced veiw can be really helpful, I remember being told that Ben could pick up on my anxiety as after he had been aggressive a couple of times out of the blue, I started to anticipate that he might be snappy and even though I wasn't aware of it I was holding the lead differently and acting differently and I don't know how but he was responding to my anxiety. Not saying thats what you are doing :005:, but I know it can be something really subtle that you may not be aware of yourself. Good luck
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I drop my lead Chris :dunno:
Perhaps you have been unlucky with the collies you have met - the ones my OH grew up on the farm with were not at all human or dog aggressive, and the ones I have met with my dog have all been very polite if greeted politely by other dogs - even the fear aggressive one who was rescued from a barn as a pup and was found surrounded by his 8 dead siblings :-\
Anyway - this is going off topic - can we please get back to Tritonx's query
Thank you :D
back to Fraser - it could just be that he's grown up now and doesn't like rudeness (I can't see to judge him!) - Jarvis is pretty placid but will not tolerate rude dogs and will not tolerate another dog putting a paw on his shoulder or their heads across his back and will tell them off - it never goes into an attack but the snarling and teeth baring and warning is all there.
We can't see it so we can't really give you the best advice, only our own experiences. I would definitely get for a start Brenda Aloff's book and also seek the help of a good behaviourist as it could escalate.
Ben's mum's post is spot on imho ;)
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Must agree with Helen above. When Freya turned two she suddenly changed her response to rude dogs and over excited puppies. At the time I was worried she was getting aggressive but on advice from the forum I realised she has just become less tolerant of rude behaviour and was justified in giving the other dog a bit of a "telling off". She has also calmed slightly since then, not going off on one as regularly, but as with Helens Jarvis, she won't let a dog put its paw on her shoulder or its head.
Berty is one of her best dog friends and they get on brilliantly most of the time, he is only 9 months, but he put his head on her back the other day and she spat out her ball faster than i've ever seen her do and gave him a very loud and snappy telling off :005: needless to say he learnt his lesson.
As others have said its difficult to give advice on these behaviours without seeing whats going on, but the scenario above is a possibility for Fraser. At the time I posted about Freyas behaviour as it was very shocking and very different to how she had handled herself before
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Our Mollie (RIP) was sometimes unpredictable, snapping and snarling to tell a dog off, not always with justification from what I could see. I always dropped the lead on the basis that she could then flee if necessary (the snapping was always fear based) and so I wouldn't be hurt (can't help dogs or anyone if I'm hurt myself).
Alfie greets all dogs politely. He's spot on . If he sees another dog approaching he will stop and appear to assess any potential threat before proceeding to greet. Downside is if he thinks he can get away with a quick hump ph34r even though castrated 5 years ago.
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Just checked Brenda Aloff's books on Amazon (pretty expensive :o). Which would be the more useful purchase, Canine Body Language or Aggression in Dogs. Fraser isn't an aggressive dog except in the very specific occasions I've described, so I wonder if a lot of the situations in the book wouldn't be relevant to him. On the other hand, it contains how to deal with it advice. But the Body Language one would be overall useful and interesting though perhaps I could find the same info free on Youtube. Has anyone on COL used either of these books?
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I got the canine body language one for christmas,it is fantastic,worth the money.
I believe it has a section on aggressive body language :D
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I'm glad that one or two of you have mentioned your dogs not tolerating "rude " dogs. Cassie is (or was ) very submissive but in the last six months or so will really tell an over exuberant dog off. She sounds dreadful But I have managed to see that she doesn't even try to bite, just make lots of threatening noise.
As to dropping the lead, sorry folks but I just can't. If I had done that when she was attacked she would be dead or at the least very badly injured .It was only that she was on a lead and by me that I managed to kick 3 shades of brown out of the attacking dog
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Quote.....I can see how it would be helpful to go a walkies with a behaviourist who is more experienced at reading dog behaviour as I must be missing subtle clues. Even watching the situation carefully as I've started to do, I cannot see the moment of trigger from Fraser doing the usual things of successful greeting to sudden snarling aggression (nor what it is in the other dog's behaviour that might have prompted the shift.)
The only other suggestion i can give you...Is to try a pack walk with a behaviorist..(LIKE YOU HAVE MENTION ABOVE).And this man does pack walks once a month it cost five pound and it would be up to you if its worth it or not...
My post keep disappearing for no apparent reason...on this posting..
Any way have a look at the link and see what you think... http://www.caninecoaching.co.uk/page/pack_walks
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Tritonx is in Canada Chris.
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Tritonx is in Canada Chris.
She will not make this weeks pack walk then.... ;)
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I don't really have any advice, but just to let you know that you're not alone. Bess is also 2 1/2, and she can be unpredictable with other dogs. Mostly fine, mostly friendly, or she takes a wide berth around those she's not too sure of, but occasionally she gets snappy or all-out aggressive (even when, like you say, they start off all tails wagging) and I can rarely see why it started or who started it. I think it can be the littlest thing sometimes.
It all started when she was attacked (unprovoked) by a Jack Russell, who she lashed back at and it took me completely by surprise. After that, she barked and growled at almost every dog for a few days, which really worried me, but she eventually calmed down, and after a few friendly meetings was okay again for a while.
All I can say is, all dogs are prone to it, no matter how friendly. It's not always a bad thing if they are simply putting another dog in it's place, and most experienced dog owners are fine about it as they understand. It doesn't mean you have a 'bad' dog or you're a bad owner, it's just in their instinct. I feel reassured by comments here from owners of slightly older dogs who have calmed down. Maybe it's just a learning curve.
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As always, it's tremendously reassuring to hear from other cocker owners on this board. I've never brought up a dog before and it is indeed a learning curve for me as well as for him. 2 1/2 must be an age when a dog comes into its full adulthood, finished with making puppy brain assumptions about how to behave, but still a bit inexperienced about how to do adult assertiveness. I really get the impression he's feeling his oats, a bit of laddishness coming out in him and if he can get away with dominating a smaller, younger dog, he'll try it on (or humping a willing female). I've never seen him do it with a bigger dog. Then it's all low stance, slow movement and careful reading of the bigger dog's signals. I'm adjusting too from having a silly, happy go lucky, love the world puppy fellow to this new personality where he has begun to show that he's a real dog with big teeth and the ability to cause harm if he really wanted to. Or at least make a great show of that potential. Live and learn, and what a great place this is for getting the information and support you need as you learn the ropes. Thanks to everyone who answered my call :bigarmhug:
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I find these topics quite interesting as I think in the short term most people are looking out for their dog.as karma put it she doesn't care about the other dog at that point. Likewise I do not care about the other dog attacking mine at that point or about it's issues or why it's acting like that. I am more worried about the long term affect in my dog and the safety of my dog and would do anything to protect it and would hate for the roles to be revered as in your situation so I do sympathise.
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Just to come back to this and say, yes, it would be the Canine Body Language book you'd be best getting... it's got fantastically clear photos of a range of body language and can be really eye-opening.
The Aggression in dogs is a good book, but very in-depth and really for someone with a significant interest in behaviour (alongside other books, as no one approach is going to right every time!!!).
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Just to come back to this and say, yes, it would be the Canine Body Language book you'd be best getting... it's got fantastically clear photos of a range of body language and can be really eye-opening.
The Aggression in dogs is a good book, but very in-depth and really for someone with a significant interest in behaviour (alongside other books, as no one approach is going to right every time!!!).
One of the books that i read also with pictures in it(on Canine body language) said look for....Scratching at self, and Sudden interest in sniffing very misleading!!!...
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How is that misleading??
Sniffing and scratching are calming signals.
Yes, you have to consider them alongside other body language cues, but they ARE known and effective calming signals (and techniques).
This is one reason why I always play a simple scent game after a training session with Honey, so that she can calm herself down and not expect further stimulation. :shades:
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Sniffing the ground is definitely a good calming signal to look out for on dog to dog meetings. You can see them look at each other and then one or the other will take a more curved approach, turn slightly away and start sniffing. Can be quick like a switch being thrown sometimes. I always relax more if Millie or the other dog suddenly averts eye contact and sniffs the ground. And I know it's calming signal from Millie as she is very much more sight driven then scent.
With regards to scratching Millie does this sometimes when she's a bit anxious/wound up. She never settles if it's anywhere near meal time or waiting on an evening for the other half to come home. She'll pace for a bit, sit down in my eye line, give a little woof at me, then scratch at the back of a front leg while sitting. She also starts doing it if there is repeatedly loud noises outside, like on the day the bins get emptied - a bit annoying when I'm trying to watch Homes Under the Hammer :005: :005:
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Canine Body Language has shipped. All will be revealed. He's definitely getting more barky at dogs in yards and approaches the scene all attitude, wanting the other dog to be outside so he can go into Big Display.