CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => General Cocker Spaniel Discussion => Topic started by: lola B on April 04, 2012, 05:17:23 PM
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i have heard that blacks have a better temperment but i also know that they are more prone to illness is that right? i personally like goldies but i am not sure yet and i dont even know what colour my furbaby will be :D any advice i really dont mind they are all so cute i am a total cocker fan!!!!!!! :luv: :luv: :luv:
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I don't think there is a 'best' colour for temperament. I don't really buy into any of the 'solids are more aggressive/roans have no concentration' or whatever it is people are saying these days! The best way of assuring a good temperament is to find a quality breeder, be well informed and provide consistent and positive training :shades: Just my opinion :blink:
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I truly don't think that colour makes any difference at all to temperament. And I have certainly never heard that any particular colour is more prone to illness - or less, come to that.
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I truly don't think that colour makes any difference at all to temperament. And I have certainly never heard that any particular colour is more prone to illness - or less, come to that.
That a new one too me as well...never heard such nonsense to be honest.
No colour is 'better' or 'worse' than another. As others have said it all about the breeding and the interaction/socialisation of pups by owners etc
I have a young roan girl who is as good natured as my solid black who has had no real health problems to speak of unless you count the fact that she has no front teeth caused by falling off bed :005:
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There seems to be a lot of these colour and temp ament posts popping up lately :-\
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There seems to be a lot of these colour and temp ament posts popping up lately :-\
Worrying isn't it :-\
I had another dog (non cocker) owner bring it up the other day. Along with the old rage syndrome debate.
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There seems to be a lot of these colour and temp ament posts popping up lately :-\
Worrying isn't it :-\
I had another dog (non cocker) owner bring it up the other day. Along with the old rage syndrome debate.
Not heard any one say Golden/red cockers are full of rage for a while >:(
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As has been said - colour has nothing to do with temperament or come to that how prone to illness a dog is - thats all just down to finding a good breeder, and then doing your own work through proper socialisation etc as a pup... so the worlds your oyster really :005:
There seems to be a lot of these colour and temp ament posts popping up lately :-\
Worrying isn't it :-\
I had another dog (non cocker) owner bring it up the other day. Along with the old rage syndrome debate.
They are cropping up - but I guess the good thing is they are coming on here, asking the question and getting the right information... and that can only be good in the long run...
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As has been said - colour has nothing to do with temperament or come to that how prone to illness a dog is - thats all just down to finding a good breeder, and then doing your own work through proper socialisation etc as a pup... so the worlds your oyster really :005:
Totally agree with this ;)
Make sure you find a good breeder and then put in the work with your pup and you should have no problems whatever colour it is :D
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I have heard loads of things like this, met someone 'experienced' with cockers say the coloureds are more interbreed and need firmer handling than the roans. I think it's all down the the home and training socialising etc as every dog can be breed to be vicious and any can be breed to be soft , totally depends on how they are handled . There are some breed specifics that will show throughout but too much depends on the owners dedication ! There is a difference with working and showing with their needs but if these are met then both should be fine! I am new to cockers but would hate to think people's ignorance of this breed would be giving it a bad name! Of course it the non dog people that listen to this and then tell us the bad things about our own dogs!
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The colour thing is a lot of old cobblers. The colour of the dog makes no difference. Decent breeding, and upbringing is what makes the dog
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Colour has nothing to do with health or temperament , not in Cockers anyway (I know there are some issues with colour and health, white boxers, merle to merle in collies etc so colour does have relevence elsewhere with regard to health but I don't know of any link to temperamant) Its good you are asking questions and here is the place to ask anything about Cockers, so in answer to your question
a, No Blacks don't have a better..... or a worse temperament than other colours ;)
b, no they are not more prone to illness (my black girl is 3 and has no health issues whatsoever touching wood so as not to jinx myself :lol2:) ;)
I have Golden/Red and a Black and would recommend either any day of the week :D
Most important issue is to go to a reputable breeder, ensure Health testing in place and that you see pups with their Mum then you have to keep up socialisation and positive training methods, good diet, to ensure you have a happy , healthy Cocker ;)
Good luck in your search
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thanks for all the replies i really did think that it had a lot to do with temparment but in hind sight i agree if i get the chanse for a goldie i think i will go for it :lol2: p.s. does anyone have a book to suggest i have read 17 books already!!! ph34r and no i am not messing 7 where from the library and 10 i bought :005: my two fave authors are jan fennell and gwen bailey although i am not to keen on ceaser millan >:(
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STEP AWAY FROM THE CEASER MILAN BOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!
He's an idiot..........................
Research and go and see puppy classes, your vets should be able to recommend one to you once pup is old enough, and make sure they do positive training, non of this "pack leader" rubbish!!
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Really good books for basic preparation and training are "How to raise the Perfect Puppy" by Gwen Bailey, and "100 ways to train the perfect dog" or "How to unlock your dog's potential" by Sarah Fisher.
:D
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OMG i just got HOW TO RAISE THE PERFECT PUPPY by gwen bailey the other day havent finished about half way through but it seems great i was looking at play pens today!!!
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Colour has nothing to do with health or temperament , not in Cockers anyway (I know there are some issues with colour and health, white boxers, merle to merle in collies etc so colour does have relevence elsewhere with regard to health but I don't know of any link to temperamant) Its good you are asking questions and here is the place to ask anything about Cockers, so in answer to your question
a, No Blacks don't have a better..... or a worse temperament than other colours ;)
b, no they are not more prone to illness (my black girl is 3 and has no health issues whatsoever touching wood so as not to jinx myself :lol2:) ;)
I have Golden/Red and a Black and would recommend either any day of the week :D
Most important issue is to go to a reputable breeder, ensure Health testing in place and that you see pups with their Mum then you have to keep up socialisation and positive training methods, good diet, to ensure you have a happy , healthy Cocker ;)
Good luck in your search
My studies for my degree dissertation on this subject have found that in some circumstances coat colour in the show cocker is relevant to elements of temperament. The data I received from amongst others the good folk on this forum revealed that solid show cockers were more likely to show aggression in five out of the ten circumstances in which it was tested for. Reds I also found were not significantly more fearful than other colours in other situations that were tested.
There are many other factors that go into making up the dogs phenotype including early experience including good socialization, the dogs lifestyle and the actions of the owner to name a few.
I think though however significant my findings you cannot say that all dogs of one colour or another have better or worse temperaments than another, this is too much of a generalization.
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Colour has nothing to do with health or temperament , not in Cockers anyway (I know there are some issues with colour and health, white boxers, merle to merle in collies etc so colour does have relevence elsewhere with regard to health but I don't know of any link to temperamant) Its good you are asking questions and here is the place to ask anything about Cockers, so in answer to your question
a, No Blacks don't have a better..... or a worse temperament than other colours ;)
b, no they are not more prone to illness (my black girl is 3 and has no health issues whatsoever touching wood so as not to jinx myself :lol2:) ;)
I have Golden/Red and a Black and would recommend either any day of the week :D
Most important issue is to go to a reputable breeder, ensure Health testing in place and that you see pups with their Mum then you have to keep up socialisation and positive training methods, good diet, to ensure you have a happy , healthy Cocker ;)
Good luck in your search
My studies for my degree dissertation on this subject have found that in some circumstances coat colour in the show cocker is relevant to elements of temperament. The data I received from amongst others the good folk on this forum revealed that solid show cockers were more likely to show aggression in five out of the ten circumstances in which it was tested for. Reds I also found were not significantly more fearful than other colours in other situations that were tested.
There are many other factors that go into making up the dogs phenotype including early experience including good socialization, the dogs lifestyle and the actions of the owner to name a few.
I think though however significant my findings you cannot say that all dogs of one colour or another have better or worse temperaments than another, this is too much of a generalization.
That saddens me considerably Mark, all I can say is from my own experience I would recommennd well bred solid Cockers to anyone and I have lots of little ones as you know, I would never have a dog that I thought would put them in danger in any way. I answered your questionaire I remember it well, as a Dog trainer would you say you deal with more solids with aggression problems???
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How many respondents did you get in the end Mark?
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617 in just 4 days Helen
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Out of interest what about working cockers.
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I would suspect this not actually coat colour gene related but breeding line related (if there is any kind of apparent corrolation between coat colour and temperament). After all, solid colour Cockers (show and working) have exactly the same colour genes as any number of other breeds - a black Cocker has exactly the same colour gene as a black Field Spaniel for example or a Black Labrador. I'm sure Mark is well aware of this but am just worried that others will put a different interpretation on his results and will use it as yet another stick to "bash" the solid coloured Cocker.
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I would suspect this not actually coat colour gene related but breeding line related (if there is any kind of apparent corrolation between coat colour and temperament). After all, solid colour Cockers (show and working) have exactly the same colour genes as any number of other breeds - a black Cocker has exactly the same colour gene as a black Field Spaniel for example or a Black Labrador. I'm sure Mark is well aware of this but am just worried that others will put a different interpretation on his results and will use it as yet another stick to "bash" the solid coloured Cocker.
Sadly I worry they will too :'( I live with 3 solids and 1 parti all different, all lovely
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I would suspect this not actually coat colour gene related but breeding line related (if there is any kind of apparent corrolation between coat colour and temperament). After all, solid colour Cockers (show and working) have exactly the same colour genes as any number of other breeds - a black Cocker has exactly the same colour gene as a black Field Spaniel for example or a Black Labrador. I'm sure Mark is well aware of this but am just worried that others will put a different interpretation on his results and will use it as yet another stick to "bash" the solid coloured Cocker.
The results would seem to back this up Jane as when tested with working cockers the results were much different. Certainly don't want to start a panic, as I said there could be many reasons why I got the results I did and as the owner of three solid colour spaniels I can vouch for just how wonderful they are to live with
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I would suspect this not actually coat colour gene related but breeding line related (if there is any kind of apparent corrolation between coat colour and temperament). After all, solid colour Cockers (show and working) have exactly the same colour genes as any number of other breeds - a black Cocker has exactly the same colour gene as a black Field Spaniel for example or a Black Labrador. I'm sure Mark is well aware of this but am just worried that others will put a different interpretation on his results and will use it as yet another stick to "bash" the solid coloured Cocker.
Sadly I worry they will too :'( I live with 3 solids and 1 parti all different, all lovely
Thats what I found saddenning about Marks post :-\ Iwill continue to base my opinion on the Cockers I actually know andno one will ever convince me that Solids are more aggressive than Partis and even though Mark has said there are other factors involved how many prospective owners wil actually take that on board, my fear is that they will see Marks one piece of Research and believe the old hype. No disrespect meant to you and your research Mark but can't help feeling that your post has just reinforced all the 'colour' and 'temperament' posts we have seen over the last few weeks :-\
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Maybe it's just that alot of uninformed impulsive cocker puppy buyers seek out the solid "classic" colours ... The golds seem to be the ones I've seen in pet shops. And therefore the uneducated, impulsive first dog owners don't socialise, train, exercise or understand that they are not lap dogs, leading to many behavioral problems, ad well as the fact that pet shop bought usually means puppy farm. Just a thought because the few of the pet shop bought cockers I've met have all been solids.
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I would suspect this not actually coat colour gene related but breeding line related (if there is any kind of apparent corrolation between coat colour and temperament). After all, solid colour Cockers (show and working) have exactly the same colour genes as any number of other breeds - a black Cocker has exactly the same colour gene as a black Field Spaniel for example or a Black Labrador. I'm sure Mark is well aware of this but am just worried that others will put a different interpretation on his results and will use it as yet another stick to "bash" the solid coloured Cocker.
Sadly I worry they will too :'( I live with 3 solids and 1 parti all different, all lovely
Thats what I found saddenning about Marks post :-\ Iwill continue to base my opinion on the Cockers I actually know andno one will ever convince me that Solids are more aggressive than Partis and even though Mark has said there are other factors involved how many prospective owners wil actually take that on board, my fear is that they will see Marks one piece of Research and believe the old hype. No disrespect meant to you and your research Mark but can't help feeling that your post has just reinforced all the 'colour' and 'temperament' posts we have seen over the last few weeks :-\
have you read my post above that supports Jane's theory? If it were only colour affecting behaviour I would have expected to see the same results in working cockers too and I did not. There is more going on than coat colour here.
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Yes as i say in my above post
even though Mark has said there are other factors involved how many prospective owners wil actually take that on board, my fear is that they will see Marks one piece of Research and believe the old hype.
Unfortunately your first post inferred that coat does indeed have a factor in aggression with solids being more affected, you did go on to say there were other factors as I have repeated above ;)
I am just saddened that if people are worried about the colour issue which by some recent posts about the subject it would indeed suggest they are, will they take on board your other comments or will the comment
The data I received from amongst others the good folk on this forum revealed that solid show cockers were more likely to show aggression in five out of the ten circumstances in which it was tested for.
Just reinforce what they have been told by more uninformed sources. :-\
have you read my post above that supports Jane's theory? If it were only colour affecting behaviour I would have expected to see the same results in working cockers too and I did not. There is more going on than coat colour here.
As you say there is more going on than coat colour, but you chose to post your findings on this thread, which infer there is indeed a problem.
I am sorry if I am coming accross as a pain in the BTM but this is a topic close to my heart and hate to see Solid Colours spoken of as being aggressive etc :'(
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I read a lot of "rubbish" on this about 2 years ago before we got our 1st. Read all about gold/reds being prone to rage bla bla bla bla
I have a black one and a golden one and both are amazing, my golden one out of the two is the most chilled.
I think research on the breeder is key for this, we got ours from a breeder in Lincoln and have since referred several friends to her and all are brilliant.
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I certainly can't answer which is best of temperment as I have both solids and parti colours. My red is the most laid back and such a softy and I have a tiny black with attitude at times. One thing I would say don't' baby them' whatever the colour... I use to have my little Rosie sleep with me and she became very processive over me .... and on a couple of occassions a few yrs back we had some unwanted behaviour...since then she is treated the same as the others and she is absolutely fine :luv:
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I only reported the findings of my survey which are not my opinion, just results of questionnaires obtained from cocker owners.
All i said is I found a significant statistical association between two variables in certain situations. I do not for one minute suggest that solids have a worse temperament than parti's that is just crazy.
This is a subject close to my heart as well, remember I hold the breed with great affection, and have one who was due to be PTS not because he is solid black, but because of the people who owned him prior to him being rescued. I see lots of behaviour cases where people without a clue shout rage at the slightest aggression from a solid cocker when nothing could be further from the truth.
I'm sure any study will cause controversy amongst different groups of people and people can interpret the results which ever way they want.
That's all they are, results obtained from statistical analysis from data provided from cocker owners, I've not made them up! But they prove diddly squat!
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I only reported the findings of my survey which are not my opinion, just results of questionnaires obtained from cocker owners.
All i said is I found a significant statistical association between two variables in certain situations. I do not for one minute suggest that solids have a worse temperament than parti's that is just crazy.
This is a subject close to my heart as well, remember I hold the breed with great affection, and have one who was due to be PTS not because he is solid black, but because of the people who owned him prior to him being rescued. I see lots of behaviour cases where people without a clue shout rage at the slightest aggression from a solid cocker when nothing could be further from the truth.
I'm sure any study will cause controversy amongst different groups of people and people can interpret the results which ever way they want.
That's all they are, results obtained from statistical analysis from data provided from cocker owners, I've not made them up! But they prove diddly squat!
......and a fine lad he is too :D
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I see lots of behaviour cases where people without a clue shout rage at the slightest aggression from a solid cocker when nothing could be further from the truth.
I have to say I find this really interesting and as you suggest there are a lot of variables that can cause aggression, but I think the rage 'label' used to act a little like a self fullfilling prophecy. When Ben (now 9), was mouthy and had a temper as a pup, the trainer at the class I went to 'diagnosed' rage because he is black and she suggested a range of ways based on Jan Fennels ideas to prove I was boss and stop the behaviours ph34r I would now bet my life that this caused him fear and heightend the aggression of my normal naughty cocker pup, much to my shame and upset. This was before I knew about COL and what to expect with a cocker pup - I was so stupid and just believed what I was told. Harry came to me with a lot of aggression issues and it could have all ended very nastily, but because I knew different and positive ways to work with him and had advice from people that understand and know the breed (thanks Mark ;)) Harry actually now has far fewer issues than Ben and is so easy with people and dogs. So perhaps its people's perceptions of the colour/rage issue that causes some of the problems - if that makes sense
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that is an amazing idea :o it really gets you thinking i think that is probably the most sensible thing anyone has said to do with rage as long as i have been researching it ;)
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I totally agree on the self fulfilling prophesy >:(
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I should have put analogy at the end of that , but I absolutely agree that it can be made to happen through lack if understanding and misinformed guidance .
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I will continue to base my opinion on the Cockers I actually know and noone will ever convince me that Solids are more aggressive than Partis ...
Well, if I took that stance and based my opinion just on the cockers that I actually have, then I would have to say that all solids have aggression issues!
There is no point in saying that you can't be convinced of anything else but your own opinion... Mark has done some research and based on the research he did, he came to a result - whether we like that outcome or not! There is obviously a situation right now WITH THE DOGS THAT TOOK PART IN THE SURVEY that more solid coloured cockers have aggression issues in certain situations than parti coloured ones... you can't argue about that and there is no point in saying it isn't true... For that particular study and those particular dogs, it is true! And as there was quite a large number that took part from lots of areas in the UK, there might be the possibility that there is indeed a breed issue (not saying there IS, just saying there MIGHT BE).
So surely, the best approach to this issue wouldn't be to burry your head in the sand and say it doesn't exist and it's all lies, but to find out why Mark's study came to this conclusion and to do some more research and get breeders and owners (of all colours) on board to participate in that and find out whether Mark's study was just a fluke or whether there is actually an issue that needs addressing. That will be much more beneficial for the cocker as a breed than either bashing Mark for "getting it all wrong" or bashing everyone else for having the wrong opinion... :shades: ;)
In addition, it is also important to remember that genes often don't work as isolated units in the body. In conjunction with other genes, the same gene can have different effects in different situations working with different gene combinations! So just because colour may not be an issue in one breed doesn't mean that in another breed it can be an issue due to other genes involved in certain processes. It is also a well known fact that when foxes were bred for tameness, that their colour changed (they became parti coloured)!!! This isn't to support the fact that solid coloured cockers may or may not be more aggressive, but simply to support the argument that coat colour and temperament can play together and influence each other!
Now, I have two cockers (one American, one English) and both have aggression issues. Jesse (my American, solid sable) has them due to a thyroid condition which was diagnosed when he was 18 months old... although he improved dramatically with medication, some damage to his temperament had already been done, so he isn't 100% perfect with larger dogs and puppies. (Two of his sisters, one solid, one parti, had/have the same aggression issues). Skye (my English, solid red) lost her first home at 4 months old due to her aggression issues... and my, did she have issues! They are 90% resolved and I don't know the cause. I was going to have her thyroid tested, but she is so good now, I am not sure yet whether it will be necessary. I don't know her breeding background, so don't know what her parents were like.
I would never advise someone to buy a puppy based on colour anyway regardless of the "reputation" of a colour as it were! Puppies should be aquired on the basis of temperament and health, colour should be very low on the list of priorities... So no, I wouldn't advise for or against solid cockers - whatever colour someone choses, they should chose a good breeder and then chose the puppy most suitable for their circumstances. Simples. Whether that is solid or parti coloured. :D
Vera
PS. Are there any other studies on coat colour and temperament connections in cockers or any other breed?
PPS. In American cockers, we tend to say that solid colours are more laid back in general whereas parti colours are more crazy and energetic... plenty of exceptions of course, but a trend that both breeders and owners seem to notice...
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In addition, it is also important to remember that genes often don't work as isolated units in the body. In conjunction with other genes, the same gene can have different effects in different situations working with different gene combinations! So just because colour may not be an issue in one breed doesn't mean that in another breed it can be an issue due to other genes involved in certain processes. It is also a well known fact that when foxes were bred for tameness, that their colour changed (they became parti coloured)!!! This isn't to support the fact that solid coloured cockers may or may not be more aggressive, but simply to support the argument that coat colour and temperament can play together and influence each other!
Of course but it's also important that assumptions are not made that any apparent differences in temperament are automatically assumed to be linked to coat colour genes as often happens when talking about solid coloured Cockers (both in the past and now). I'm still convinced that the apparent link to increased aggression in some (a relatively small number) of solid Cockers is down to the breeding practices of the past (decades ago) when anecdotal evidence suggests that sometimes dogs with poor temperament were bred from because of their show successes or because they were a particular popular colour at the time. Good temperament has to be bred for like any other trait and sadly not all breeders make this a priority and never will do (I'm not talking about show breeders here but breeders generally)
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I completely agree, Jane. And we also need to remember that other medical conditions too can cause aggression issues, which may be liked to certain lines which happen to be certain colours! I can give an example in sable American cockers. Sables in the UK have the reputation of carrying temperament issues, they are numerically very small and therefore are practically all from the same line. Now my sable American has aggression issues which is down to autoimmune thyroiditis which is an inherited condition. It would now be very interesting to test other dogs of the same line/colour for thyroid as the aggression issues that do seem present in a larger than average percentage of sables in Americans could very well be down to hypothyroidism and not just "bad temperament" as such... and I am wondering whether the same would be true for certain lines (which happen to be certain colours perhaps) in English cockers which could well be why the results for English workers and English show types differs, in fact, whether the same would be true for most aggression cases in any breed. ;)
But of course, a study like Mark's wouldn't show the cause of the aggression issues, which as has been pointed out by many including Mark, could be down to various reasons not just the coat colour genes as such... but until that is tested and researched and something done about the underlying cause (be it genetic, be it medical...), the result is the same regardless of the cause. :-\
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What is considered a good sample out of a population though? If around 20,000 pups are registered each year then there are at least 200,000 cockers in the UK (not counting those who have sadly died before 10, those aged over 10 or the tens of thousands of non-kc registered litters born...)
I'm not denying that Mark's research is informative and correct for the sample, I just wonder with the sample he has taken if it is broad enough.
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But of course, a study like Mark's wouldn't show the cause of the aggression issues, which as has been pointed out by many including Mark, could be down to various reasons not just the coat colour genes as such... but until that is tested and researched and something done about the underlying cause (be it genetic, be it medical...), the result is the same regardless of the cause. :-\
Yes that's the problem - there is no one underlying cause that applies across the board - some cases may have medical causes eg underactive thyroid (as in your Jesse) or pain from undiagnosed conditions (hip dysplasia, brain tumours etc), others will be down to environmental factors (upbringing and training), others due to poor breeding practices, the list goes on and on. I do take your point that perhaps there may be a common genetic factor (thyroid related) in some solid show lines but underactive thyroids are relatively common in particolour show lines too which suggests that this is not the answer but who knows? Impossible to say without in depth scientific research on large numbers of dogs.
Re the apparent different results in working lines, it's only relatively recently that there has been such an explosion in the working Cocker population (particularly in pet homes) and I wonder if the same study was carried out in say twenty or thirty years time, whether there would be such apparent differences between show/working dogs, particularly if the breeding of working strain dogs for the pet market by breeders motivated by money (ie not genuine breeders who work their dogs) continues and has the same detrimental effect as the commercial breeding of show type dogs.
It's a subject which will run and run with no easy answers sadly...
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Jane, you must have read my conclusion ;)
The results are only representitive of the sampled population and I am not for one moment inferring these results are relevant at the level of the individual dog. Who knows what a larger sample would have revealed. ;) ;)
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Mark,
at any point would your study / dissertation becoming 'available' to read publicly... I for one would be very interested to read it.
My mum's golden cocker was a complete darling... perfectly behaved, easy to train and a complete softie ... unless you tried to take food away from her ... but hey, it was her food / treat, so I'm not surprised :-\
My girls, you can take food away no problem, but they have other possessiveness issues, including me! I don't put this down to their colours though... it's their individuality and how we've brought them up (spoilt little princesses!).
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i doubt it will be published but when it has been marked I may make it available to interested individuals as a PDF.
I do warn you it is hardly a bed time read and has about thirty five pages of tables and graphs :lol2: :005:
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Alfie has his moments, but I have never considered it to be anything to do with his colour. He started to have a problem when given a bone for example and went mad at me when I went near him. I perservered and repeatedly took it from him, even pretended to eat it ph34r then give it back to him then take it off him. He has no problem with food now I can literally take food out of his bowl and he just looks at me now with an expression that says "er excuse me I think you will find that's mine" From a puppy I always gave him his food then bent down and took his bowl away then gave it back to him. Behaviour is down to breeding and rearing not colour.
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I wonder if the same study was carried out in say twenty or thirty years time, whether there would be such apparent differences between show/working dogs, particularly if the breeding of working strain dogs for the pet market by breeders motivated by money (ie not genuine breeders who work their dogs) continues and has the same detrimental effect as the commercial breeding of show type dogs.
I take slight issue with the apparent assumption that any breeder of working strain dogs who doesn't work their dogs is motivated by money. ;)
However the truth of the matter is that any breeding that does not have good temperament as its top, or nearly top, priority is likely to cause issues - this could just as easily be working breeder chasing the ultimate high drive working dog, as the issue of past show champions being of uncertain temperament but otherwise of perfect physical conformity.
The problems are magnified by puppy farms and of course the huge numbers of pups that one stud dog can sire.
It is not altogether supprising that Mark found links between certain colours and temperamental issues - if you threw enough resources at a study you might even be able to trace the individual dogs that lead to the issue. The priority though is to look forward and encourage breeding from only temperamentally sound dogs/bitches - for both strains of the breed.
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I wonder if the same study was carried out in say twenty or thirty years time, whether there would be such apparent differences between show/working dogs, particularly if the breeding of working strain dogs for the pet market by breeders motivated by money (ie not genuine breeders who work their dogs) continues and has the same detrimental effect as the commercial breeding of show type dogs.
I take slight issue with the apparent assumption that any breeder of working strain dogs who doesn't work their dogs is motivated by money. ;)
That isn't what I said at all - you've either misread it or reading something into what I posted that just isn't there. I was quite obviously making the comparison with the mass production, commercial breeding of show type dogs which has had such a detrimental effect (ie where making money is the prime motivation above all else) & we already know that these type of breeders have acquired working strain dogs. Can't see what your issue is at all :huh:
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That isn't what I said at all - you've either misread it or reading something into what I posted that just isn't there. I was quite obviously making the comparison with the mass production, commercial breeding of show type dogs which has had such a detrimental effect (ie where making money is the prime motivation above all else) & we already know that these type of breeders have acquired working strain dogs. Can't see what your issue is at all :huh:
Sorry my issue was more with the "(i.e. not genuine breeders who work there dogs)" which seemed to lump all other breeders in with the money motivated puppy farms. I know its not what you ment to sugest.
My point really is that any breeder who does not prioratise temprament could be a cause of issues. This includes some working kennels who churn out puppies as a side line, or offload surplus unsutable (generaly un health tested) pups onto the pet market.
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Benji was gold with a blond head and he was a bit of a grumbler but not anything bad in any way shape or form.I would not hesitate to have a red/gold or whatever you call it again.People were banging on about cocker rage when i had him.he did not have any hint of that.i dont care what colour a cocker is i love them all. :luv:
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thanks a million for all the replies i think from what i have read there is such a thing as rage but it is soooooo much less common then people would like you to think i think reds and goldens are seen to have more behaviour problems because they are so much more common and if you buy from a good breeder and bring it up PROPERLY cockers are as many of you will vouch THE BEST DOGS IN THE WORLD!!!!
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i doubt it will be published but when it has been marked I may make it available to interested individuals as a PDF.
I do warn you it is hardly a bed time read and has about thirty five pages of tables and graphs :lol2: :005:
love a good study! would be interesting to read a bit more about your sampling methods and questionnaire- would the raw data be included? let us know how you get on with it anyway-and if it will be available on here!- what are you studying for which allowed you to write such an interesting dissertation!