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Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: Yomper on May 09, 2012, 06:14:38 PM

Title: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Yomper on May 09, 2012, 06:14:38 PM
Hi
Lately oscar has had a few growls at other dogs he sees if there on their owners leash. Not all the time just the odd occasion but today i was told he really turned a bit nasty and growling and went for this other dog. oscar was off the leash but the other dog was on a leash. Nothing happened as he was then grabbed and put on his leash and of course an apology to the other dogs owner. I wasn't there so can't say for sure what happened but he has growled at a couple of other dogs who are on there leash. Apart from this oscar is brilliant playing with other dogs submissive to little dogs and will more than hold his own with bigger dogs in there mad antics.
Is there a way to stop him growling as i wouldn;t want him to get hurt or hurt another dog
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: SkyeandOllie on May 09, 2012, 06:20:18 PM
personally, I wouldn't let my dog approach an on lead dog.  recall him away.  I always ask the owners permission before letting my dogs approach a dog off lead and never let mine go to an on lead dog.
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Yomper on May 09, 2012, 06:37:49 PM
oh we always do the same but this dog was friendly and it was oscar who took the disliking to him and oscar is one of the friendliest dogs i know and has never done this
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Karma on May 09, 2012, 07:03:59 PM

No matter how friendly the on-lead dog, as a general rule you shouldn't let an off-lead dog approach an on-lead dog, as the on-lead dog cannot display the full range of body language, and can't avoid contact if they want to do so.  It can make the on-lead dog more reactive as they have no option but to "fight" as they cannot "flee".

It is possible the on-lead dogs are giving off subtle "get lost" vibes which Oscar is reacting to... or another common problem is that an on-lead dog who is pulling even slightly on the lead actually pulls itself into what appears (to another dog) to be an aggressive stance - the face becomes taught, the body-weight is concentrated onto the front legs etc... add this to the fact that an on-lead dog will most likely be approaching in a straight line, with no option of stopping to sniff (which would be a calming signal) or altering pace to put another dog at ease... it's no wonder that being on-lead creates all kinds of problems both for the on-lead dog and for other dogs around them.
 ;)
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Yomper on May 09, 2012, 07:26:56 PM
That makes very good sense to me. I have just found out it happened at one of those cattle gates so it was hard to see any dogs approaching until your there. Apparently the women said oh oscar is nice and when my partner and the other woman opened the gate to walk though and let the dogs say hello was when it happened.

I do feel sorry for the few other dogs i see walking on a leash as there missing out on so much and to keep calling oscar every time i see one to hold onto him as al he wants to do is play does become a pain on some days :(
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: SkyeandOllie on May 10, 2012, 04:29:55 PM

I do feel sorry for the few other dogs i see walking on a leash as there missing out on so much and to keep calling oscar every time i see one to hold onto him as al he wants to do is play does become a pain on some days :(


The thing is,  you don't know why these others are on leads. Granted,  some dogs just don't get enough exercise, or the owner is scared of letting the dog off. Other dogs may not have good recall, some maybe agressive, have fear based issues which make off lead a no no. It might be a pain, but, to me calling your dog back and not letting your dog go up to others without asking first is polite dog walking etiquette.......  My German Shepherd doesn't like meeting dogs on lead and will firmly tell the approaching dog to bog off!
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: PennyB on May 11, 2012, 10:33:41 PM

I do feel sorry for the few other dogs i see walking on a leash as there missing out on so much and to keep calling oscar every time i see one to hold onto him as al he wants to do is play does become a pain on some days :(


The thing is,  you don't know why these others are on leads. Granted,  some dogs just don't get enough exercise, or the owner is scared of letting the dog off. Other dogs may not have good recall, some maybe agressive, have fear based issues which make off lead a no no.

or as Wilf had to for a while, may be because of injury - I got fed up of certain dog owners allowing their dogs to charge up to him then suggest my dog wasn't friendly becuase he would bark his head off at them when they did
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Sarah.H on May 12, 2012, 07:35:22 AM
That makes very good sense to me. I have just found out it happened at one of those cattle gates so it was hard to see any dogs approaching until your there. Apparently the women said oh oscar is nice and when my partner and the other woman opened the gate to walk though and let the dogs say hello was when it happened.

I do feel sorry for the few other dogs i see walking on a leash as there missing out on so much and to keep calling oscar every time i see one to hold onto him as al he wants to do is play does become a pain on some days :(


Not as much as a pain for the poor person that can't let their dog off the lead  ;)

Think of it as a chance to practice his recall and general obedience by getting him to focus on you until you are past the other person.
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Yomper on May 12, 2012, 08:20:55 AM
I know i know i am moaning over nothing but some of the owners have never tried to let their dog off the lead as they say he/she might not  come back. we all know that if they get the right excercise and a few training times at home or at class they would be fine or 99% of them would be. oscar is 98% good on his recall but his not failable as sometimes the wind can stop him hearing me so i do worry it may be that odd time where its an aggressive dog without a muzzle.
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Top Barks on May 13, 2012, 01:20:43 PM
There could be a million and one reasons for a dog to be on a lead, you can't jump to the assumption that the dog has a compromised life because it is out on one. for example, i am taking Alfie for the briefest of lead walks at the moment, please don't feel sorry he is on lead, please feel sorry that he had a very bad fracture of his elbow a month ago. Worry about your own dog and not other people's and as others have said it is rather bad form to let a dog not under control run up to other dogs on lead who are looked after with the best of intent.
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Yomper on May 13, 2012, 03:47:47 PM
well i still think its wrong for people to have a dog and to never let them off there lead. if its for health reasons then thats undersandable or if there dog is aggressive then not only should it be on a lead it should have a muzzle on. no excuse for having an aggressive dog out without a muzzle in any circumstances. i was on about the people that have never let them off the lead as they couldn't be bothered to train them properly to come back. you know the same ones you never see in the winter but come summer they all appear out of the woodwork as if there happy normal dog owners! The same ones who haven't bothered training their dogs or have any dog association time. The Same dogs who are on a lead because there stuck indoors most days and only go out on a lead.
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Sheryl on May 13, 2012, 04:01:23 PM
The problem as I see it is how can you tell the difference?  You see only a dog on a lead and not the story behind it.  I have had a dog fat because of drugs and had people's opinions of her weight thrown at me, I have one dog who is starting not to hear me so I am reluctant to let her off lead and I have a dog who is still restricted to lead walking when off my land due to a spinal op.  You cannot tell their problems by looking at them so how do you know when you are right and when you are just being plain judgemental?  When in doubt...say nowt!
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Yomper on May 13, 2012, 05:15:45 PM
Well i am not being judgemental as i do know some dogs have problems especially with there hips. i always ask why there on the lead as i talk to everyone (trait of mine!) and the story i hear most is because there aggressive or they think the dogs wont come back. So getting back to my point if i am walking my non aggressive friendly dog in the middle of a disused farm or a 30 minute walk from any road or housing which is what i do as do a lot of other dog owners  why should i have to put my dog on the lead or recall him if an aggressive dog is approaching without a muzzle. I haven't said a bad health dog who can't be let off the lead.  

ps i do go on a bit i know!
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Sheryl on May 13, 2012, 05:33:41 PM
I didn't say you were judgemental doll, I said how would you do it without being judgemental.  You ask owners why their dog is on a lead, ok .... but here's the thing.....if someone came up to me and asked me why my dog was on a lead I would politely tell them to mind their own business!
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Karma on May 13, 2012, 06:03:42 PM


Take a read of this:

http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2011/12/01/my-dog-is-friendly/ (http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2011/12/01/my-dog-is-friendly/)

 ;)
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Yomper on May 13, 2012, 06:46:59 PM
well i did just read that and that has nothing to do with disused farms or river walks in the middle of nowhere. That is mainly near roads and the general public. I go to places where there are no roads or houses. just general ramblers/hikers and other dog owners who let there dogs off the lead. only for a dog to be seen coming towards us/me on a lead so we have to stop our dog and put him on a lead and wait for the aggressive dog to pass.
Now why did i say aggressive dog? thats because of the dogs i am on about. if there aggressive then they should have a muzzle.

we wlil have to disagree with this one as i have told many people with so said aggressive dogs to put a muzzle on.
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Rhona W on May 13, 2012, 07:01:26 PM
Well I'm a DINOS, or I own a dog that is. As he needs space, we walk in disused farms or in the middle of no where, so that we can avoid other people and their dogs.
The other side of the argument is 'If your dog is nice and friendly, why don't you stick to public places and the popular dog walking areas where you can mix freely, and leave us DINOS in peace?'
And why should my on lead dog have to be muzzled just because you can't be bothered to control your own dog? :dunno: 
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Ben's mum on May 13, 2012, 07:39:21 PM
Its partly because of other dog owners letting their dogs come up to mine that we took the decision to rent our own fields - its not cheap, but it is so good to be able to walk my dogs without being pestered by well meaning dogs and their owners.  I know there are heaps of lovely dogs (and owners) out there, but I don't want to be forced to explain about my dogs when theirs pester mine. 

Ben is a growly and grumbly cocker  :005: and he hates other dogs coming up to him, it doesn't matter if he is on or off lead he just doesn't like it.  When I shout out to owner's that he will tell their dog off they usually say it doesn't matter or even sillier that it will do their dog good to be told off, which makes me mad, why should Ben have to get cross when he is minding his own business, keeping to himself and enjoying his walk.  He won't go up to someone elses dog he just wants to do his own thing

Harry is completely different and loves all dogs, but he bounces and plays rough and while people smile at him when he wants to play, when he has flattened their little darling and bounced all over it like tigger they are not always so amused  ph34r

I like to choose who my boys meet up with and we know lovely dogs that play with Harry and leave Ben alone, but I have to admit I am not best pleased when people let their dogs come up to mine, especially if they can't recall them away when I ask them too.
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Karma on May 13, 2012, 09:00:24 PM
Hi
Lately oscar has had a few growls at other dogs he sees if there on their owners leash. Not all the time just the odd occasion but today i was told he really turned a bit nasty and growling and went for this other dog. oscar was off the leash but the other dog was on a leash. Nothing happened as he was then grabbed and put on his leash and of course an apology to the other dogs owner. I wasn't there so can't say for sure what happened but he has growled at a couple of other dogs who are on there leash. Apart from this oscar is brilliant playing with other dogs submissive to little dogs and will more than hold his own with bigger dogs in there mad antics.
Is there a way to stop him growling as i wouldn;t want him to get hurt or hurt another dog

So presumably you'll be keeping Oscar on-lead and muzzled from now on??  (NOTE, I'm NOT suggesting you should, just making a point about "aggression".)  ;)
There are different degrees of aggression... and some "aggression" is actually perfectly normal dog behaviour that the owners seem to feel is unacceptable... If a dog is only going to defend itself from a loose dog bouncing all over them, to me that is not aggression (though plenty of owners would label it as such)... there might be a lot of noise, but damage is unlikely to be caused.  The only dogs who need muzzling, in my opinion, are ones who are likely to instigate fights or attack another dog, not those who just won't put up with rude behaviour.  Also, some of these "aggressive" dogs might be rescues who's owners are trying to gradually acclimatise them to other dogs... or a whole host of other situations.

The link I posted wasn't supposed to fit your exact circumstances, but I'd hoped it might give you some understanding of the issues you may come across allowing your dog to approach on-lead dogs...

My dog is off-lead for the majority of her walk - she avoids most dogs, but will tell them off if they invade her space too much... though polite dogs she will greet happily, and sometimes go on to play with them.  If any dog ran up to her while she was on-lead, she would sound like she was trying to kill them (there would be no injury, but she would sound like she meant business).  Not only would this earn her the label of aggressive from the owner of the rude/out-of-control dog, but it would mean I would have to spend the rest of the week on high alert for any potentially "scary" (for her) dogs that we met, as she will lose her confidence to avoid/diffuse situations, and so warn-off first and think later.  One of the main reasons for her defensiveness around other dogs is a bad back.  However she was also attacked at an adolescent by a German Shepherd.  She also guards balls from other dogs.
Some people would call her "aggressive", but she's not, she just needs careful management and space from rude friendly dogs.... (when her behaviour started, I was convinced she was becoming "aggressive" and she'd end up needing to stay on-lead etc... but we had great advice from our training school and learned more about how her behaviour is (for the most part) acceptable for a dog (though not particularly tolerant!).
So just because someone says their dog is aggressive, doesn't necessarily mean a muzzle is needed...

And, at the end of the day, by the time you have asked an owner why their dog is on-lead, your dog has already bounced all over them... unless you know 100% that the dog is a) only on-lead because of a no-recall issue AND b) happy to greet other dogs on-lead, it is YOUR responsibility to keep YOUR dog under control. 

I do understand your frustration at those owners who simply don't bother to train their dogs and keep them on-lead as a consequence (and we see those at puppy classes all the time - and those are the owners who have, at least, signed up for puppy classes in the first place) - but even if the owners say the reason the dog is on-lead is due to "aggression" or "being a bit funny with other dogs" or "no recall" you can't possibly know the full story.  There are many owners on here who have reverted to lead walks while they firm up a recall that has been derailed... again, a rescue dog may have no recall and a high chase drive, and need further training before off-lead walks can be considered. 

I think the fact that you stated it was a pain to be recalling your dog for the sake of on-lead dogs has led to this becoming rather more heated than you anticipated, as there are owners here who work very hard to manage their dogs anxieties, and have experienced many absolutely frustrating walks where weeks of training has been undone by one friendly dog... so people are just trying to explain why it means so much to them for you to keep your dog away from on-lead dogs as a matter of course.  Most people here share your frustration at the owners who just don't bother to train...  ;)


Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Danni and Freya on May 13, 2012, 09:06:01 PM
Hi
Lately oscar has had a few growls at other dogs he sees if there on their owners leash. Not all the time just the odd occasion but today i was told he really turned a bit nasty and growling and went for this other dog. oscar was off the leash but the other dog was on a leash. Nothing happened as he was then grabbed and put on his leash and of course an apology to the other dogs owner. I wasn't there so can't say for sure what happened but he has growled at a couple of other dogs who are on there leash. Apart from this oscar is brilliant playing with other dogs submissive to little dogs and will more than hold his own with bigger dogs in there mad antics.
Is there a way to stop him growling as i wouldn;t want him to get hurt or hurt another dog

So presumably you'll be keeping Oscar on-lead and muzzled from now on??  (NOTE, I'm NOT suggesting you should, just making a point about "aggression".)  ;)
There are different degrees of aggression... and some "aggression" is actually perfectly normal dog behaviour that the owners seem to feel is unacceptable... If a dog is only going to defend itself from a loose dog bouncing all over them, to me that is not aggression (though plenty of owners would label it as such)... there might be a lot of noise, but damage is unlikely to be caused.  The only dogs who need muzzling, in my opinion, are ones who are likely to instigate fights or attack another dog, not those who just won't put up with rude behaviour.  Also, some of these "aggressive" dogs might be rescues who's owners are trying to gradually acclimatise them to other dogs... or a whole host of other situations.

The link I posted wasn't supposed to fit your exact circumstances, but I'd hoped it might give you some understanding of the issues you may come across allowing your dog to approach on-lead dogs...

My dog is off-lead for the majority of her walk - she avoids most dogs, but will tell them off if they invade her space too much... though polite dogs she will greet happily, and sometimes go on to play with them.  If any dog ran up to her while she was on-lead, she would sound like she was trying to kill them (there would be no injury, but she would sound like she meant business).  Not only would this earn her the label of aggressive from the owner of the rude/out-of-control dog, but it would mean I would have to spend the rest of the week on high alert for any potentially "scary" (for her) dogs that we met, as she will lose her confidence to avoid/diffuse situations, and so warn-off first and think later.  One of the main reasons for her defensiveness around other dogs is a bad back.  However she was also attacked at an adolescent by a German Shepherd.  She also guards balls from other dogs.
Some people would call her "aggressive", but she's not, she just needs careful management and space from rude friendly dogs.... (when her behaviour started, I was convinced she was becoming "aggressive" and she'd end up needing to stay on-lead etc... but we had great advice from our training school and learned more about how her behaviour is (for the most part) acceptable for a dog (though not particularly tolerant!).
So just because someone says their dog is aggressive, doesn't necessarily mean a muzzle is needed...

And, at the end of the day, by the time you have asked an owner why their dog is on-lead, your dog has already bounced all over them... unless you know 100% that the dog is a) only on-lead because of a no-recall issue AND b) happy to greet other dogs on-lead, it is YOUR responsibility to keep YOUR dog under control. 

I do understand your frustration at those owners who simply don't bother to train their dogs and keep them on-lead as a consequence (and we see those at puppy classes all the time - and those are the owners who have, at least, signed up for puppy classes in the first place) - but even if the owners say the reason the dog is on-lead is due to "aggression" or "being a bit funny with other dogs" or "no recall" you can't possibly know the full story.  There are many owners on here who have reverted to lead walks while they firm up a recall that has been derailed... again, a rescue dog may have no recall and a high chase drive, and need further training before off-lead walks can be considered. 

I think the fact that you stated it was a pain to be recalling your dog for the sake of on-lead dogs has led to this becoming rather more heated than you anticipated, as there are owners here who work very hard to manage their dogs anxieties, and have experienced many absolutely frustrating walks where weeks of training has been undone by one friendly dog... so people are just trying to explain why it means so much to them for you to keep your dog away from on-lead dogs as a matter of course.  Most people here share your frustration at the owners who just don't bother to train...  ;)




Well said Karma, I always respect on lead dogs and keep my dogs away. Ellie my new rescue lab has to be on lead at times as she has a tendancy to bolt after other dogs and has varied recall. Its not because i'm lazy and haven't trained her, its because I am making sure we are in places where I know she is safe before I let her off
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Alex77 on May 14, 2012, 09:09:28 PM
Ooh what a good debate! 
We can all judge other people, their treatment of their animals (and kids :005:) at times.  But back to the point of your off lead dog growling at another dog on lead.  it does happen as previously explained, about dog behaviour, body language/signals etc.  at the end of the day, the dog on the lead is not the problem.  My older girl is deaf and is often kept on a flexi lead/short lead for this reason -  she just doesn't hear me so unless she's looking at me, she'll wonder off on her own merry way.  if your dog or any other offlead dog comes up to any of my woofs and growls or worse, it's you or the owner of said offlead dog who is at fault (i don't mean to sound rude :blink:).  I love my off lead walks, and so do my dogs, but i always call them to heel (and tasty biscuits help here) when other dogs approach, even if they too are off lead, but particularly if the other dog is on a lead because the lead is a restrictive device and as such can make the dog uncomfortable if he/she feels invaded by another dog.  there are people in the world who i meet and take a dislike to one way or another. and people who insist of invading my personal space at times!  but i'm more advanced than my canine companions and can manage these feelings politely, and walk away.  There's no reason all dogs should like each other.  They don't have to be labelled just because they say 'oy naff off'. 

In your situation with Oscar growling at this other dog, don't over think it.  Simply prevent it from happening again (where of course you see it comin! we can all be caught out!).  Oscar doesn't sound aggressive, it was just the situation.  I've had it happen once or twice over the years and it's taught me to be vigilant in recall and doggy etiquette!
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Yomper on May 15, 2012, 08:04:54 AM
I did agree with Karma response and as i wasn't there i couldn;t explain what happened exactly. The couple of times he has has a growl at other dogs is when there on there leads and pulling/panting.

I wasn't having a go at every dog on the lead just had a bad day where i walk oscar in the middle of nowhere and had to keep calling him back  as people were walking with their dog/s on the lead every few minutes and i always ask of their friendly and they always seem to be aggressive and thge ones that weren't said they have never let them off the lead. Oscar doesn't bound upto every dog and pounce all over him. his quite a chilled dog and will stay if i tell him too 98% of the time and will only play if the other dog wants too otherwise he pretty much goes about his sniffing.
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Dinah on May 15, 2012, 10:21:15 AM
I foster ex-breeding dogs.  They are on lead until recall is established.  None of the females like having their bottoms sniffed (old experiences!).  Some put their tail between their legs and try to make themselves 'disappear' by flattening on the ground.  It is upsetting for the dog who is still being socialised, and very annoying when the sniffer persists, sometimes to the point of trying to mount,  and the owner does nothing to get their dog away.  Some ex-breeders - like my own (off lead) Daisy - swear at the sniffers.  This usually works for her but on occasion, a dog persists and I have to tell the owner she might well snap.  An example of this was when a bouncy, pushy, collie would not back off and Daisy did swear in his face.  Only then did the owner put her mobile away and rush up to check her collie wasn't injured!  Of course it wasn't.   It comes down to manners really - from both humans and dogs.
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Yomper on May 15, 2012, 11:36:08 AM
well i guess we will have to disagree on certain points. i still think a dog is a dog and they do what dogs do sniff each others behinds is one of them. if i go to a secluded dog walking/play area then thats what he will do. if other dogs on leads walk past with aggressive problems then surely there owners should walk them in a less busy dog walking area and muzzle them. aggressive dogs should be muzzled or at least kept away from public areas full stop. i am on about aggressive dogs not ones that warn other dogs away with a growl or a little nip on the ear. i do ask if other peoples dogs are friendly and ok for oscar to say hello before oscar can approach but lately theres to many aggressive ones. funny how most of these aggressive dogs aren't seen on the cold or rainy days.
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: SkyeandOllie on May 15, 2012, 02:37:46 PM
Simples,  Control your dog,  don't let him annoy on lead dogs, Afterall its YOUR dog who has been growling at the onlead dog!  If the on lead dog retaliates and Oscar gets hurt whos fault is it? the Owner who has their dog on a lead or yours as you let your dog go up to on lead dogs and growl at them?! How would you feel if his negative encounters cause him to become agressive? Would you then keep away from dog walking areas and keep him muzzled?  You don't seem to realise that this is a potential big issue.....
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Laura on May 15, 2012, 05:54:06 PM
Hi Yomper, this isn't aimed at you but more an opportunity to share my frustrations.

Off lead dogs don't always want to be approached either. My female was charged by a collie when she was 9 months old.  No physical damage was done. However, it mentally traumatised her and her brother. They became reactive (barking)when anxious or anxious/excited after that.   A year down the line, they're making fabulous progress, although we still have a way to go.   We have worked very hard counter conditioning and desensitising them both to situations that bother them. I have also worked hard on their impulse control.  However, our training has been slowed and set back time and time again by uninvited dogs being allowed to approach mine.    If I am clearly training, playing with my dogs or I call mine close, I expect other owners to keep their dogs away; even if mine are off lead.  Being off lead isn't an open invite for all and sundry. I don't walk at my local park anymore for this reason, even though it's on my doorstep. 

More often than not I know which dogs mine will happily greet by watching for stress responses, behaviour and body language.     If I turn around and walk quickly in the opposite direction or create distance, I definitely want the dog kept from following.   If this is all ignored, my dogs can become panicked and will then bark anxiously. This is stressful for them, for me and not a pleasant experience for the other dog either.  Once stressed out it can take mine several days to recover from the physiological stress response it triggers.   Mine don't tell other dogs off once close but, it doesn't mean they are comfortable. 

If my dogs are on lead, I will not thank anyone for allowing their dog to come over - however friendly or cute it is.   I can excuse the dog that cocks an occasional deafen to its owner, after all none of us own robots. 
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: PennyB on May 15, 2012, 06:25:21 PM
if there dog is aggressive then not only should it be on a lead it should have a muzzle on. no excuse for having an aggressive dog out without a muzzle in any circumstances.

I don't think this should be the case - if the owner has the dog under control on a lead why should they muzzle their dog - there are different levels of aggression + I know my dogs get stroppy on lead if a dog comes charging up to them which in some owners can be misinterpreted for aggression so could my dogs then be labelled aggressive.
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Dinah on May 15, 2012, 07:05:15 PM
well i guess we will have to disagree on certain points. i still think a dog is a dog and they do what dogs do sniff each others behinds is one of them. if i go to a secluded dog walking/play area then thats what he will do.
I fully agree that sniffing other dogs' bottoms is part of the meet and greet process.  However, if the dog being sniffed is clearly unhappy with this, then responsible owners should (and do) call their dog off.  Most dogs are on lead for a reason. 
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Rhona W on May 15, 2012, 08:01:57 PM
well i guess we will have to disagree on certain points. i still think a dog is a dog and they do what dogs do sniff each others behinds is one of them. if i go to a secluded dog walking/play area then thats what he will do. if other dogs on leads walk past with aggressive problems then surely there owners should walk them in a less busy dog walking area and muzzle them. aggressive dogs should be muzzled or at least kept away from public areas full stop. i am on about aggressive dogs not ones that warn other dogs away with a growl or a little nip on the ear. i do ask if other peoples dogs are friendly and ok for oscar to say hello before oscar can approach but lately theres to many aggressive ones. funny how most of these aggressive dogs aren't seen on the cold or rainy days.

So aggressive dogs should not be walked in secluded areas and they should be kept away from public areas.

Where exactly do you suggest people with aggressive dogs should walk them then?  :dunno:
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Sarah.H on May 15, 2012, 08:48:13 PM
Well i am not being judgemental as i do know some dogs have problems especially with there hips. i always ask why there on the lead as i talk to everyone (trait of mine!) and the story i hear most is because there aggressive or they think the dogs wont come back. So getting back to my point if i am walking my non aggressive friendly dog in the middle of a disused farm or a 30 minute walk from any road or housing which is what i do as do a of other dog owners near where i live why should i have to put my dog on the lead or recall him if an aggressive dog is approaching without a muzzle. I haven't said a bad health dog who can't be let off the lead. 

ps i do go on a bit i know!

When people ask me why Millie's on a lead I say it's because she'll run off. I don't go into the years of training and her past history with a stranger - usually I just want to quickly get away from the other dog.

Unless it's private land and you have sole permission to use it why do you have any more right than anyone else? I do agree that there are some dogs with serious aggression issues (as in if they got hold of another dog they would try to kill it) that should always be muzzled. But sadly some people are irresponsible or plain stupid so you should be prepared for that, and it is a very good reason why not to let your dog approach.
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: rory,s mum on May 16, 2012, 10:08:41 AM
Like Dinah,I often have dogs on lead for a variety of reasons: Some of the dogs I foster have never learned to walk on a lead and are training,some training in recall but not ready, deaf,blind, old blind and deaf etc....     If I see an owner with a dog on leash I assume it is being trained or has another reason to be on leash and I use good manners and put my dogs on leash to walk past. The owner of a dog I am passing on leash shouldnt need to be responsible for my dog too.  It can be very distracting to a dog in training to have dogs off leash approaching it all the time.      Dogs may also be on leash because they are in care /foster and not owned by the walker.   interesting debate x
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Carolynleah on May 16, 2012, 10:48:23 AM
I keep Will the staffie on a lead when there are other unknown dogs about, as he doesn't like some - and he has been bounced on by off lead dogs and told them off (and why not, I would tell someone off if they bounced on me!).  He does not need a muzzle, he needs other owners to be equally responsible and keep their dogs under control as well.  Nerys the cocker goes on lead when other unknown dogs are about because she might run up to them and I don't want her to annoy them - when I know they are happy to play I let her off.  Walking in public areas we all need to be responsible, considerate dog owners who give each other space as necessary.
On Sunday we went on a sponsored walk with over 60 staffies and a few other breeds - all were kept on lead, all walked beautifully and no-one fell out - everyone knew to give each other room. 
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: MaggieR on May 16, 2012, 11:09:30 AM
I think the point is its all about respecting each others space and if your dog can't do that its up to you as the owner to keep it safe... Maggie is offlead pretty much all the time, but I am constantly watching to see who's around, I call her away from onlead dogs because I don't know why they are onlead and its really none of my business.  And if I see an offlead dog I watch to check body language, theirs and hers, and if there might be a problem because for instance they are a bit bouncy (Maggie has a bad back/legs and is quite fearful of bouncy dogs because of it) I call her to me and take her away from the situation.  My dog, my responsibility....
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: jaybee on May 16, 2012, 11:33:09 AM
As a dog owner I am responsible for the welfare and safety of my dog, and also do my best to ensure that the actions and behaviours of my dog do not threaten the safety or welfare of others. We walk in open countryside. Every day. If I see an approaching dog who is on lead, I put Bingley onto his lead. As others have explained, being on lead autotmatically puts that dog at a disadvantage in terms of displaying warning 'go away, i need space' signals. I do not want my dog to make any other dog feel threatened, as the dog feeling threatened could (justifiably) tell him where to go. I don't want to put my dog in a situation where he could have a bad experience, especially as a consequence of his own 'friendly' behaviour, because his 'friendly' behaviour may not be welcomed by everyone, and I have to respect that. I don't think having your dog off lead gives you free reign to let your dog run up to every dog you encounter, even if you are in wide, open spaces.

We see fairweather walkers, plenty of them, sometimes always keeping their dogs on lead, but frankly it's none of my business why they choose to walk where they do, or why they keep their dog on the lead. On public land, people can walk however they bloomin' well like. Just because I walk my dog there every day doesn't mean I have the right for my dog to have free reign in that area, if fairweather walkers are about. If you don't want to have the hassle of recalling or putting your dog on lead, then don't - but please bear in mind that in doing so you are running the risk of creating hostile, potential damaging, encounters. And to be quite honest, if something serious happens (god forbid) with your dog off lead, and another dog on lead, the responsibilty (and 'blame') lies with you. I don't want to be dramatic or offend, but sorry, that's just how I feel.
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: JennyBee on May 16, 2012, 12:45:21 PM
And to be quite honest, if something serious happens (god forbid) with your dog off lead, and another dog on lead, the responsibilty (and 'blame') lies with you.

I completely agree - Brodie was attacked a few weeks ago, she was on lead and the other dog was running loose. It happened to be the middle of the street but if it had been in the park I'd still have done what I did next - go home and phone the police ;). The other dog now has a Dog Control Notice placed on it...

Brodie despises meeting dogs when she is on her lead, it is pure fear with her. She is, and always will be a timid girl, although I constantly work hard to improve that. If another dog runs up to her and won't leave her alone, then she is completely within her rights tells it off. She is the dog on a lead and under control. I can't tell you how much I hate the words 'he just wants to play'... Yes he might, but all the hard work I've done in gaining Brodie's confidence goes right out the window. She is never, ever allowed to run up to an on lead dog as I know the damage it can do to another dog's confidence.
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: praia on May 16, 2012, 04:14:33 PM
It's interesting how it has been stated that aggressive dogs should be kept on muzzles, yet it's the OP's dog that is growling at on lead dogs. 

I don't understand why some people look down on others who walked their dogs leashed.  You don't know the entire story of why a dog is on leash and you don't know the past history of these dogs that may explain why they behave as they do.  Just because a dog is suffering from health issues or has behavioral problems or simply hasn't been proofed to higher obedience doesn't mean that it should miss out on the opportunity to be walked. Considering the OP's story about meeting aggressive dogs in secluded walking areas, have you considered that these other dog owners may choose these spots in an effort to get away from people who allow their overly friendly dogs to approach their not so friendly dogs?  These people have as much right as you to walk their dogs anywhere they please as long as they are keeping their dog under control.

These owners are already responsibly controlling their dogs by keeping their dogs on lead. How about taking some responsibility and control yours? As others have already stated, if something terrible were to happen between your dog and an on lead dog, the blame would fall on you for first allowing your dog to approach an on lead dog and for not having enough control to call it off once things started turning for the worse. Of course you should recall your dog if an aggressive leashed dog approaches.  Your responsibility is towards the training and safety of your own dog not anybody else's.  How about you stop wondering about what's gone wrong with everybody else's dogs and start focusing more on your own dog's problems, which originally was stated as growling at leashed and fully controlled dogs.
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Yomper on May 16, 2012, 06:10:45 PM
Your all gobbing off saying i should keep my dog under control. i have never said i let my dog approach other dogs on a lead. i just get fed up having to call him every time a dog walks past on a lead. in fact after a lot of your snobby remarks i decided most of you don't know what your talking about.

ps thats not to karma or a few others that made sense just to the gobby oones
(http://cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/Themes/default/images/warnwarn.gif) Rudeness to other members. If you ask for advice on a public forum, you may not agree with all the replies you get but that's no excuse for rudeness
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Sheryl on May 16, 2012, 06:24:44 PM
How very rude. 
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Danni and Freya on May 16, 2012, 06:29:49 PM
How very rude. 

 :005:
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Rhona W on May 16, 2012, 07:47:43 PM
i just get fed up having to call him every time a dog walks past on a lead.
Why don't you keep him on a lead then and you won't have to call him back?  :shades:
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Happygal on May 16, 2012, 07:51:55 PM

No matter how friendly the on-lead dog, as a general rule you shouldn't let an off-lead dog approach an on-lead dog, as the on-lead dog cannot display the full range of body language, and can't avoid contact if they want to do so.  It can make the on-lead dog more reactive as they have no option but to "fight" as they cannot "flee".

It is possible the on-lead dogs are giving off subtle "get lost" vibes which Oscar is reacting to... or another common problem is that an on-lead dog who is pulling even slightly on the lead actually pulls itself into what appears (to another dog) to be an aggressive stance - the face becomes taught, the body-weight is concentrated onto the front legs etc... add this to the fact that an on-lead dog will most likely be approaching in a straight line, with no option of stopping to sniff (which would be a calming signal) or altering pace to put another dog at ease... it's no wonder that being on-lead creates all kinds of problems both for the on-lead dog and for other dogs around them.
 ;)

That sounds very sensible advice/ observation and I found this very interesting, sorry it's not in reply to your query though
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: scotsclyde on May 17, 2012, 06:34:48 AM
Quote
i just get fed up having to call him every time a dog walks past on a lead

And I am sure the owner of the dog that your dog is running up to and invading their space is also fed up. Be glad you live in a place that allows off lead walks. Where I was from in NY,we had to keep our dog on lead or have 100% voice control and only allowing the dog a few feet from their owner. The reason behind these laws are because too many dog walkers thought it was their right not privilege to allow their dogs to run free invading others space. Only takes a few fed up people that your dog is annoying to get the ball rolling for laws to be made restricting dogs and in some cases banning from public areas. I enjoy the freedoms that the UK has to offer with dogs and will make sure I respect others to help maintain those freedoms.
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Bluebell on May 17, 2012, 07:38:48 AM
i just get fed up having to call him every time a dog walks past on a lead.

It's just another part of being a dog owner really :-\
I usually walk my dogs across a local golf course (public footpath too) onto open countryside and farm land.
As you can imagine walking there at times require my dogs to be in very close control, or on their lead!
Golfers aren't overly keen on dogs charging across the fairway and/or playing fetch with the golf balls, and I am not overly keen on my dogs desire to chase rabbits and fezzies in the countryside   ;)

We enjoy our walks wherever we go, whether off or on lead! The time I spend out and about with my dogs is one of the best parts of my life, and I take as much pleasure seeing them under close control as running free  :D I am pretty sure my dogs feel the same  ;)
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Yomper on May 17, 2012, 07:57:18 AM


And I am sure the owner of the dog that your dog is running up to and invading their space is also fed up.

Now this is my point. you obviously have a different language in new york as i said i have never allowed oscar to approach an on lead dog.
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: jaybee on May 17, 2012, 08:10:19 AM
 
[/quote]

Now this is my point. you obviously have a different language in new york as i said i have never allowed oscar to approach an on lead dog.
[/quote]

Then i'm confused? Your first post says he growled at a dog that was on lead, and after growling you put him on a lead?  :-\ Isn't that him approaching an on lead dog, while off lead?
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: scotsclyde on May 17, 2012, 09:16:24 AM
Quote
why should i have to put my dog on the lead or recall him if an aggressive dog is approaching without a muzzle.

Quote
i have never allowed oscar to approach an on lead dog

Quote
i just get fed up having to call him every time a dog walks past on a lead

Quote
i have never said i let my dog approach other dogs on a lead

Very confused :huh: :huh: :huh:

Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Yomper on May 17, 2012, 09:18:02 AM
well as i said this was at a cattle gate so both dogs in different fields and I wasn't walking him and you just explained it yourself. i just get fed up calling him every time i see a dog on the lead. hence the word fed up not that i let him approach
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: SkyeandOllie on May 17, 2012, 11:50:00 AM
Wow, you are very rude! I presume i was one of the gobby ones who doesn't know what they're talking about....  i can assure you i do! By looks of it you are a new dog owner who has decided everyone else is in the wrong when your the one asking for advice on your dog growling at onlead dogs. You've been given good advice, most if it, infact no, all of which you have decided to ignore. Instead you've made out its the onlead dogs fault!!
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Pudding on May 17, 2012, 12:35:03 PM
Bob also does not like his space invaded, when he is no lead...
off lead he is so much better... but get in his face when he is on lead and he will have a go..
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Clare B on May 17, 2012, 01:01:04 PM
The older Flo gets the less she tolerates dogs bounding up to her or even taking an excited interest from onlead, she ignores them or if they are ' in her face' she tells them off, especially with younger dogs ( and she is not even 2 yet).  She likes her own company and that of her immediate family and friends( including doggy friends) but if strange dogs or people make a fuss of her she's not comfortable.  Alot like people and dogs all have their own ways and preferences, strengths and weaknesses.  And like we should with people, we should have understanding that not all are alike... And that's a good thing... Makes the world go round :D
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Yomper on May 17, 2012, 02:39:13 PM
I give up. how many times do i have to say i DON'T let my dog approach onlead dogs without asking if its ok BUT when i go to a secluded place ie fields on abandoned farms to let my dog have a run and sniff why should i have to keep calling my dog back when other dogs approach on a lead. when they disappear another dog on a lead appears. When this has happened 3 or 4 times in 10 minutes its a pain in the ass.  i goto fields and obscure places where most other owners with dogs off the lead go its only when the sun comes out the dogs with leads come to these places and it is not my fault or the other dogs fault that there on leads but their owners. If a dog has problems with other dogs then surely they should avoid a bunch of off lead dogs who are playing instead of everyone calling there dog while the dog passes. walk the other side of the field. So before you start repeating THAT i shouldn't let my dog approach other dogs if there on the lead i DON'T but i get fed up sometimes having to do so. the few places where i have walk oscar for the last year i know most of the other dogs i see day in day out come rain cold or sun. come a sunny day at times there is a dog every 200yrds on a lead. so whos fault is it that their dog has problems?
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: jaybee on May 17, 2012, 02:58:23 PM
when i go to a secluded place ie fields on abandoned farms to let my dog have a run and sniff why should i have to keep calling my dog back when other dogs approach on a lead.

Because it is part of responsible dog ownership!

Lots of people have offered comments and advice, and I think you have made it clear that you don't consider it your responsibility to keep your dog away from on lead dogs. It seems that you will only be happy if people agree that people who walk dogs on lead should do so in some magical place, reserved only for on lead dogs and far away from people who are unwilling to control their dog while off lead. On a forum such as this there are always differing opinions, and for every person who offers a comment or one piece of advise you like, there is probably going to be someone else who says something you don't. I'm going to bow out now, as I feel this is becoming too heated and in some instances down right rude. I hope you find some resolution to your problem.
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Pudding on May 17, 2012, 03:02:29 PM
you are mad.... why don't you go  somewhere else if you are not happy with this place
you don't own it so you can not say who can go there and who can not
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: Sheryl on May 17, 2012, 03:30:10 PM
This is getting a little silly I admit.  The thing about advice is you either take it or you don't.......but you don't have to resort to rudeness or name calling if the answers are not what you want to hear.

I understand what you are saying about the remote places but the fact is that they are open for everybody whether you like it or not.  People who go there with on lead dogs do so because they can and because they have that right, the same as you.  For all you know, the reason they keep them on lead may be the same as why they go to somewhere quiet.  I walk mine on lead for reasons stated previously and given the choice, I would opt for somewhere remote.  Just because they are on lead, does not mean to say I must walk them somewhere where everyone else with on lead dogs go.

Live and let live.....

Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: SkyeandOllie on May 17, 2012, 03:30:48 PM
Wish there was a 'like' button pudding and sheryl!
Title: Re: Growling at other dogs who are on there leash
Post by: PennyB on May 17, 2012, 03:53:47 PM
I can sympathise with some of your frustration in having to do stuff even when you're out and about but its all part and parcel of responsible dog ownership - if more owners were responsible then there would be fewer dogs needed to be onlead in the 1st place (my own cocker became grumpy with certain types of dog after being attacked on occasion by certain dogs).

I will close this now as I think its exhausted its usefulness and we're all going round in circles.