CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: carly_cl on August 19, 2012, 08:50:34 PM
-
Hi,
Thought I would start a new thread to update all the lovely people who have helped me through the last 2 weeks with our increasingly aggressive Oscar. Well we arranged to have Oscar rehomed with a family members friend, not before a horrendous incident on fri night where he went for both of us and we had to take our little boy out of the house, leave our house wide open all night (could have been SOO much worse!). Yesterday he went to the family members house to allow gradual introduction to his wife and son. Today his new owner went round, oscar was great and they decide to just put oscar in his van to take to the new home. I would have catergorically advised against this as we have had car aggression with him before. As soon as he went in the van no one could get near, he was trying to attack anyone who went near (the level of aggression is incredible). My OH had to drive over (30 mins) and there was a 1.5 hour stand off before he eventually went in the house. Needless to say its kind of put the new owner off and its made us wonder if they would be able to manage him at all, it almost seems irresponsible for us to allow it to happen although they are willing to take him. The family member has been locked out of his kitchen all day because Oscar is going for him and not getting over his red mist. There is now talk of having him PTS and evben calling the vet out if we are unable to calm him. If he was a human I swear it would be a mental illness such as schizophrenia. Please, what would you do? Could he ever be rehomed? I just dont think its fair to sign him off. Im in turmoil xx
-
Awww Hun what a dilemma you are in :luv: only you can decide where to go from here, maybe you should let mark from top barks come to your house and assess the situation :huh: he is good at what he does and maybe he can pick up on something that nobody else has?? what have you got to lose :luv: :luv: I feel for you as I have been there where you are right now and for this reason I haven't posted on your other thread :luv: I wish you all the best in what ever you decide to do and don't be too hard on yourself as you have tried everything in your power to help Oscar :luv: :luv: x x x
-
Hi Carly,
Only just read seen your posts.
Terrible that you are going through such a hard time I hope there is a happier ending to this horrible situation.
Best of luck,
x x
-
It sounds an horrendous situation, one which I am not qualified to give advice :-\
Just wondering though has a behavioural expert assessed him ? What is the age of the child that Oscar is to be rehomed with ?
-
So sorry things have deteriorated for you all :'(
I know on your last thread people suggested some knowledgeable rescues where Oscar could be assessed by people experienced at handling dogs with aggression issues. Possibly then they would know what the best solution or options are for Oscar. I would be reluctant to let him go somewhere where they are not experienced or understanding of the possible problems.
Good luck
-
It's a terrible situation for all of you. I see a number of people have suggested Mark from Top Barks, must be worth talking to him. I hope you are able to resolve this so that your family and Oscar are happy and settled.
-
So sorry to hear that things have escalated again :'( :'(
But Carly, nobody on here can give you an answer or proper advice without seeing Oscar. The only thing to do if you are prepared to pursue it is to take the advice you have been given and get a qualified behaviourist in to assess him. A lot of us have suggested you get in touch with Mark (Topbarks) - if I were you that is the first thing I would have done. :-\
It is a terrible situation to be in I really hope you manage to sort things out for everyone concerned :-\
-
No advice sorry Carly, just to say I am so so sorry for you and your situation it is heartbreaking :'( :'(
:bigarmhug: :bigarmhug: :bigarmhug:
-
So sorry to hear that things have deteriorated so much :'( :'( I am rather concerned that things seem to have suddenly become so extreme :dunno:
But Carly, no one on here can give you any answers or advice without seeing Oscar and being properly qualified. A few of us have suggested that if you still wish to pursue a solution, you get a qualified behaviourist in to give you an assessment. We have told you that Mark (Topbarks) is an excellent person to approach. If it were me, getting him (or another behaviourist if you prefer) to see Oscar is the first thing I would have done. :-\
You have found yourself in a horrendous situation - I really hope that you can find a solution that is in the best interests of everyone :-\
-
I've been away for the last week or so and have only briefly read your posts, however, please do not rehome Oscar to a family who are not going to be able to cope with him, if they're having stand offs with him today, things are likely to deteriorate if they don't know what they are doing.
Without wishing to be harsh, it would also be irresponsible to rehome a dog with the issues that Oscar has to a family that have a child. :-\ I've taken on 'difficult' dogs in the past, that's my choice and with that choice I accept that I may get bitten (and I have). There is no way that I would take on some of the dogs that I have if I had a child in the home.
You really do need to contact one of the cocker / spaniel rescues to see if one of them would be prepared to take him on and work with him. Oscar clearly is going to need a lot of help to work through his issues, rehoming him to anyone other than a very experienced person or rescue is likely to make things worse for him.
Like I said, I haven't had a chance to read through all your posts yet, so apologies if I'm repeating stuff that other folks have said.
I'll pm you with some rescues that you can try :)
-
Sorry to post again, I completely agree with Joules, if you haven't already, please contact Top Barks and get his excellent help with Oscar (sorry, I assumed that Oscar had already been seen by a reputable behaviourist).
-
Big hugs to you, what a difficult time for you all. As others have said I have to agree you need to get in touch with Mark from Top Barks.
-
I agree with the others and really think you should contact Mark (Top Barks) if nothing else at least you will have gained some further professional advice which could help you decide the best route.
I havent been in your situation so can't advise you myself but really do feel for you all :bigarmhug: :bigarmhug:
-
Agree with everyone. Before you make a decision talk to Mark. Also, I don't think any of the medical tests - especially thyroid - have been done, have they! Surely, you'd want to exclude a medical cause (that could potentially be solved very easily) before making that final decision!!!
If nothing works - neither a good behaviourist and no medical cause can be found (after THOROUGH tests, not just a quick manual exam by the vet) - then yes, PTS is probably the kindest and most responsible thing to do! But not before covering all other avenues first.
-
You need to either:
Speak with Mark as several people have suggested, as well as taking him back to a vet with some sense and having blood tests done etc to rule out health problems
Or
speak with the cocker rescues to try and find somewhere to take him with a view to having him rehomed or at least fostered out ASAP.
It must be an incredibly stressful situation for you, your family but also for Oscar as well.
I don't mean to sound harsh but you came to the forums looking for help and assistance on what to do; lots of people have offered their advice and yet you don't seem to want to listen to it, nor act upon it. If you really want to do the best you can for him you need to start acting on some of the advice you've already been given.
I hope you get things sorted for Oscar soon.
-
So sorry :bigarmhug: I really feel for you.
-
It must be an awful situation to be in for both you and Oscar. Like the others, I really think you need to rule out all medical causes as well as having a good behaviourist evaluate him before any decisions are made, for both yours and Oscar's sake.
-
It's a big decision to make however it's one you need to make sooner rather than later for all your sakes.
-
Before you make a decision please talk to Mark. Also, I don't think any of the medical tests - especially thyroid - have been done, have they! Surely, you'd want to exclude a medical cause (that could potentially be solved very easily) before making that final decision!!!
If nothing works - neither a good behaviourist and no medical cause can be found (after THOROUGH tests, not just a quick manual exam by the vet) - then yes, PTS is probably the kindest and most responsible thing to do! But not before covering all other avenues first.
This is the best possible advice....please, please, please take it :shades:
I am so sorry you are in this difficult situation with Oscar & completely understand how upsetting it must be :'(
Lurcher Girl would tell you the exact health tests incl. bloods Oscar needs :shades:
-
Agree with everyone. Before you make a decision talk to Mark. Also, I don't think any of the medical tests - especially thyroid - have been done, have they! Surely, you'd want to exclude a medical cause (that could potentially be solved very easily) before making that final decision!!!
If nothing works - neither a good behaviourist and no medical cause can be found (after THOROUGH tests, not just a quick manual exam by the vet) - then yes, PTS is probably the kindest and most responsible thing to do! But not before covering all other avenues first.
Agree with everything LurcherGirl has said. It is a truly awful situation to find yourself in, but I know I wouldn't want to make such a final decision without having opinions and information from a qualified behaviourist and a vet who has done thorough testing. Oscar is also probably picking up on all your fears and with changes to his living arrangements is perhaps scared, confused and distressed. Please pursue the right routes to get all this information before you make a decision.
xxx
-
Thanks for your reply but how do i manage this in the meantime? Our family member is living in fear and was locked out of their kitchen all day yesterday. We really cant bring him bk here with a toddler in the house either. We have officially had the phone call that the couple willing to take him, will not anymore after seeing the severity and prolonged aspect of his aggression yesterday. Im SO peed off, how the hell can you trust a vet, we put oscar in front of a highly respected long serving vet yet here we are STILL wondering if its a thyroid issue. I dont see it going anyother way than the worst right now, his situation Has o be resolved today latest tomorrow because he i a timebomb, we cant get into a car and our family member cant live in that way. feel like im going to break, been awake all night.
-
Where is he right now?
Get on the phone to Mark today, if he can't come I am sure he will be able to provide you with recommendations or point you in the direction of someone who will be able to help.
-
I can feel your desperation leaping off the screen as I read your last response so :bigarmhug: :bigarmhug: to you in these very difficult circumstances.
Others have made some wonderful suggestions about what tests/assessments could be done, and in an ideal world of course that is what you would have done had decisions been taken sooner and maybe this current crisis would not overtaken you all. However, you are now left in the middle of a whirlwind unable to see a way forward and no longer able to trust Oscar with any of your family. As Kelly T has suggested, perhaps you should talk with a Cocker rescue organisation, explain the situation and take their advice about how to sort this immediate crisis - or discuss with Mark and see what he says. Whether or not you subsequently go down the route of further testing/behavioural assessment is something only you can decide - but what is clear is that this situation cannot go on, for your sake or Oscars. At this stage all you can deal with are the current circumstances - getting sucked in to what you 'should' or 'could' have done is not helpful and is something for another day, difficult though that may be when the time comes to reflect on things.
I wish you well.
-
If i were in this situation i would call the vet out to just sedate him to calm Oscar down
This of course would make it safer to move Oscar to a more suitable room where he could be segregated
Get those health/blood tests done today
Call in TopBarks (Mark) or speak to Lurcher Girl now
Oscar could be in terrible pain along with being scared :'(
I don't really know what else to suggest & just feel so sad for everyone involved :'(
-
Please Please Please DO NOT HAVE HIM PTS. I totally understand your concerns but at least call an experienced cocker rescue place to give him a chance.
If your dog has aggression issues he should only be rehomed with a very experienced owner.
The chances are he is absolutely terrified right now, which is why he is lashing out. Think how he is feeling - he got taken from his home and family, then shoved in a van, then taken to another house, with no way for him to understand why this is happening to him.
My old boy Alfie was showing horrific signs of "rage" according to 2 vets I saw - who advised he be put to sleep. I refused and sought a 3rd opinion and it turned out he had torn his cruciate ligament and was in extreme pain. Once he had been operated on and his leg healed, he was a completely different dog.
-
Where is he right now?
Get on the phone to Mark today, if he can't come I am sure he will be able to provide you with recommendations or point you in the direction of someone who will be able to help.
In sunderland, the home he knows well as he has been there when we go away.
Yes I know we didnt call Mark but Oscar appeared to calm again lulling us into a false sense of security. We were going to try and have him come round though.
I just dont know what can be done, if Mark does come I cant see what difference it will make, he still hasnt got a home right now? Who will work with him, as much as I want to I cant put my toddler in the same space any longer. The only place we could be pointed is to rescue centres which so far have said no, including the dogs trust who apparently never put a healthy dog to sleep. DT advised us to pts as they wouldnt be able to rehome him. If he went anywhere he would need a home with an experienced owner of aggresive dogs other than that I just dont know if realistically is an option
-
You won't know unless you make the call and talk to him
-
Thanks for your reply but how do i manage this in the meantime?
Have you tried to muzzle Oscar? There are muzzle availables that still allow him to drink and take treats, but it is safe for people to be around him then. Please get your relative to contact either Mark or me so we can talk more, and we might be able to suggest safe ways of managing him until tests are done. (Thyroid results for example will take about a week.)
The way he is at the moment, I am going to be honest, you won't find a home and no rescue will be able to help. People that are experienced enough and willing to deal with this sort of issue are like gold dust (and most of those are already at full capacity due to having taken dogs with similar issues) and to be honest, if no medical cause can be found and no obvious behaviour issue can be identified, then PTS would be the kindest thing to do anyway as this whole situation isn't just stressful for people around Oscar, but extremely stressful and confusing for him too.
-
Thanks for your reply but how do i manage this in the meantime?
Have you tried to muzzle Oscar? There are muzzle availables that still allow him to drink and take treats, but it is safe for people to be around him then. Please get your relative to contact either Mark or me so we can talk more, and we might be able to suggest safe ways of managing him until tests are done.
The way he is at the moment, I am going to be honest, you won't find a home and no rescue will be able to help. People that are experienced enough and willing to deal with this sort of issue are like gold dust (and most of those are already at full capacity due to having taken dogs with similar issues) and to be honest, if no medical cause can be found and no obvious behaviour issue can be identified, then PTS would be the kindest thing to do anyway as this whole situation isn't just stressful for people around Oscar, but extremely stressful and confusing for him too.
I wouldnt dare put a muzzle on him, putting a lead on him is risky business at the moment. We CANT possibly keep him with the risk factor, he needs a home. Is it really worth putting him through all of this and then a rescue still wont take him. Oscar may have an identified issue but then what?? Im stuck, I adore that dog but I cant have him near my son anymore
-
Thanks for your reply but how do i manage this in the meantime?
Have you tried to muzzle Oscar? There are muzzle availables that still allow him to drink and take treats, but it is safe for people to be around him then. Please get your relative to contact either Mark or me so we can talk more, and we might be able to suggest safe ways of managing him until tests are done.
The way he is at the moment, I am going to be honest, you won't find a home and no rescue will be able to help. People that are experienced enough and willing to deal with this sort of issue are like gold dust (and most of those are already at full capacity due to having taken dogs with similar issues) and to be honest, if no medical cause can be found and no obvious behaviour issue can be identified, then PTS would be the kindest thing to do anyway as this whole situation isn't just stressful for people around Oscar, but extremely stressful and confusing for him too.
I wouldnt dare put a muzzle on him, putting a lead on him is risky business at the moment. We CANT possibly keep him with the risk factor, he needs a home. Is it really worth putting him through all of this and then a rescue still wont take him. Oscar may have an identified issue but then what?? Im stuck, I adore that dog but I cant have him near my son anymore
Sounds like you have already made your decision? The very knowledgeable and experienced Lurchergirl has been totally honest with you about the un-likelihood of Oscar being successfully re-homed as things currently stand and I guess that even if you were to go down the route of testing for medical conditions you cannot see how he can be cared for in the interim?
-
I'm sorry but none of this is adding up for me anymore. I've never been in this situation but it seems to me that you don't want to follow the recommendations given, which is strange.
I hope that if this is all going on you get it sorted quickly for the dogs sake.
Lots of useful advice has already been given and you need to act on it ASAP.
Good luck and I wish you well.
-
You are getting advice on here and EVERYONE has said speak to Top Barks and you dont seem to want to do this and seem to have made up your mind already , so i dont really see what you want anyone on here to tell you , lurchergirl and other people have given you good advice :-\ :-\
-
I agree with others who are saying that if you really want to help call Mark at Top Barks, he is obviously really highly regarded on COL and I would certainly call him. I would also like to echo the comment which is that you must appreciate that Oscar must be terrified and confused with all that's going on, so for everyone involved please make the calls necessary. You are coming across as deflated and beat at the moment and that is to be expected but please don't have him PTS until you have make the calls suggested.
I wish you well
-
Ok this may be down to crap experience of behaviourists but what do they do, come and give you a series of actions to take with your dog?? How do we do this?? Where do we do it? I have just called the national coordinator of cocker rehoming and rescue, she advised to pts. Basically said, who could rehome him? She spoke a lot of sense. Said that no rescue would take him, so what are we to do, we just cant keep him!!! PLEASE dont make me feel like Im giving up easily that I am not, like I said we were about to call Mark when it escalated but even if we had we are STILL taking a risk having him in our home with a toddler.
-
The one piece of advice you will not be given on this particular forum is a definitive 'Put Oscar To Sleep' - it just won't happen here where people are so devoted to their Cocker Spaniels that they understandably would want you to pursue each and every alternative before you make a final decision.
You have received that advice from the national coordinator of cocker rehoming and rescue.
You now have to make a choice whose advice to follow :-\
-
No, he shouldn't remain with a toddler, regardless of the outcome really. But I thought that perhaps if he could be sorted, your relatives would give him another chance. But if they are not prepared to give him another shot (and I am not judging here, just making a statement!) by doing medical tests and work with a behaviourist, then I can't really see a way forward unless someone extremely experienced with the right set up/lifestyle available can help or someone is prepared to offer him a short term foster place whilst the above can be sorted out... :huh:
-
No, he shouldn't remain with a toddler, regardless of the outcome really. But I thought that perhaps if he could be sorted, your relatives would give him another chance. But if they are not prepared to give him another shot (and I am not judging here, just making a statement!) by doing medical tests and work with a behaviourist, then I can't really see a way forward unless someone extremely experienced with the right set up/lifestyle available can help or someone is prepared to offer him a short term foster place whilst the above can be sorted out... :huh:
I really cant expect a family member with very little dog experience to manage this for us. Most of his house was out of bounds yesterday and I know that he could 'flip' at any time. Once again, I am the responsible owner. The relative has been bitten by Oscar before on the arm so we are extremely lucky he is doing this for us at all
-
I'm sorry but none of this is adding up for me anymore. I've never been in this situation but it seems to me that you don't want to follow the recommendations given, which is strange.
I hope that if this is all going on you get it sorted quickly for the dogs sake.
Lots of useful advice has already been given and you need to act on it ASAP.
Good luck and I wish you well.
It is not strange. He doesnt have a home to go to right now, so who is going to help him rehabillitate? which I very much doubt would happen anyway.
I can see you are never going to say pts and I never thought myself and OH would say it but right now there is no other option. NO rescue centres will take him.
This is not a decision taken lightly we have worked with him for years, sacrificed many aspects of our life for him.
-
I think at the end of the day it is all about doing everything. Regardless of what a behaviourist may or may not ask of you and what a vet may or may not find, at least if you do decide finally to say goodbye to Oscar, you can do it knowing every single avenue open to you was explored.
How will you feel if a few months down the line someone posts about having a dog like Oscar and managed to turn that dog around and into a wonderful family dog? You would feel terrible...I know I would.
All people here are asking is for someone qualified to tell you that this is saveable or the end of the line. Please don't get angry because they are trying to help Oscar and you xxxx
-
I think at the end of the day it is all about doing everything. Regardless of what a behaviourist may or may not ask of you and what a vet may or may not find, at least if you do decide finally to say goodbye to Oscar, you can do it knowing every single avenue open to you was explored.
How will you feel if a few months down the line someone posts about having a dog like Oscar and managed to turn that dog around and into a wonderful family dog? You would feel terrible...I know I would.
All people here are asking is for someone qualified to tell you that this is saveable or the end of the line. Please don't get angry because they are trying to help Oscar and you xxxx
This I know, and I thank all of you for that. But please tell me logistically how this is possible..
eg behaviourist comes says Oscar can be worked on, may have a chance. Then what. Who and where can this be done? Im sorry I come accross as getting angry but its through pure desperation for my boy, as much as I adore him I cant have him near my son. On Friday night, I must tell you that had my little boy not been in my partners arms he could have been bitten. For that alone I cant have him back
-
But you don't know and cannot assume what the behaviourist will say. They may well come in and say this is a lost cause and at least you can do what you have to knowing it is for all the right reasons. He may well be in pain. Pain can be hidden and not obvious.
At the end of the day he is your dog and you have to do what you think best. People here are saying Topbarks because they know that he will be honest and straight with you xx
-
O.k. i'm going to give it one last try....please read stuffster's text below highlighted in bold
The reason Oscar could be behaving as he is because he is in pain
If you could find out if Oscar does have a health issue & he gets treatment, along with help from a recommended behavourist then he could be rehomed.
There must be one room in your home where you could be put a baby gate to keep him away from your child. :shades:
If you do everything you possibly can for Oscar, at least you know in your heart you tried :bigarmhug: :bigarmhug:
Please Please Please DO NOT HAVE HIM PTS. I totally understand your concerns but at least call an experienced cocker rescue place to give him a chance.
If your dog has aggression issues he should only be rehomed with a very experienced owner.
The chances are he is absolutely terrified right now, which is why he is lashing out. Think how he is feeling - he got taken from his home and family, then shoved in a van, then taken to another house, with no way for him to understand why this is happening to him.
My old boy Alfie was showing horrific signs of "rage" according to 2 vets I saw - who advised he be put to sleep. I refused and sought a 3rd opinion and it turned out he had torn his cruciate ligament and was in extreme pain. Once he had been operated on and his leg healed, he was a completely different dog.
-
What Sheryl say makes sense and also, if the behaviourist did believe there was hope for Oscar, they might possibly know of a place for him? I'm sure this must be an unbelievably difficult position to be in :(
-
I really feel for you and the awful situation you are in. But as others have said, surely you can separate Oscar from your son by putting up a gate. Also if the vet sedated him, he could then go to the vets for a full medical work up. Even if he stayed at the vets to be observed for a few days, that way they could do bloods and xrays if necessary. It would be awful to think he was reacting this way due to pain. I think you all need to take a deep breath and try to work out a plan. At the end of the day only you can make the decision. I wish you all well.
-
I have been phoning rescues and just had a long chat with a guy from caessr. He said the same as everyone else, he cant be rehomed unless there was someone v experienced that came forward. He also said it sounds as close to 'rage' as you could get and they have taken in dogs like this (without honesty in rehoming) and they are pts. I understand where you are all coming from, I think i will try another vet just to get a second opinion. Although our vet is a very well established respected vet in this area, he has always been spot on with all of our animals
-
What if my son goes to the gate and Oscar flips, which has happened lately (not to him)? Is this honestly responsible, my son could lose his hand. We cant get near our kitchen when he goes and this is the only option to gate him in.
-
I understand where you are all coming from, I think i will try another vet just to get a second opinion. Although our vet is a very well established respected vet in this area, he has always been spot on with all of our animals
You need to make sure that you get the right tests done, even the best vets don't know for example that thyroid malfunction can cause rage-type symptoms!
-
What if my son goes to the gate and Oscar flips, which has happened lately (not to him)? Is this honestly responsible, my son could lose his hand. We cant get near our kitchen when he goes and this is the only option to gate him in.
Personally, I wouldn't want the toddler in the same house as Oscar! The accident risk is too high. Can your relatives keep him safe in one room?
-
Carly, please stop asking for advice if you are not prepared to listen! You seem to have made your decision but, if it were me, I would be making sure I had explored every avenue before I made an irreversible decision :dunno: I realise this is a stressful situation but everyone on here has offered you good advice which you have not taken - we are just going round in circles here and you and Oscar are just becoming more stressed in the process :-\ If you are willing to try everything, you need to get an opinion and further tests (as recommended by Lurchergirl) from a vet AND an experienced behaviourist eg Mark - and you need to do it now!
You keep asking what a behaviourist will do, say, recommend - the answer is, we do not know until they see Oscar. :shades: As has been said, it is unlikely that a rescue will take him with the facts as you have told us, but either you want to try everything or you do not. Obviously an inexperienced home is totally out of the question for him so, if you do not want to talk to a behaviourist, it looks like pts is the only outcome for this poor boy :'( :'(
-
I understand Joules frustration here as it is how I feel too!
There are no easy answers here - people have offered the same advice over and over on your threads but, if I'm honest, it sounds like you have already made the decision :-\
None of us can see what is happening - we can only offer suggestions.
I don't know why you will ring other organisations quite freely but won't ring Mark, but that is entirely your own choice.
I wish you well, and I wish you peace in the decision you take.
-
I think you have come to the end of the line with Oscar. There is no way you can have him back into your home even with help from a behaviourist or even if a vet felt that the behaviour had a physical cause which could be treated. The trust between yourself and Oscar has gone. You have to think of your child.
You have found that no rescues will take Oscar with the history you have told them.
You only have two options: rehome him privately or have him pts.
To give him the best chance of being rehomed privately I believe you should have him re-checked by a vet today to see if there is any chance of there being some medical condition which could be treated. Additionally, you should contact a recommended beahviourist for advice as to whether, if the cause is not physical, any work could be done with Oscar at all.
If the outcome from either enquiry is positive, you may find someone willing to consider taking Oscar on, even through this forum. If both enquiries turn up a negative response, then I think the only solution left would be for Oscar to be pts.
-
Carly, I'm going to close this now as I don't think it's helping you to keep the thread running - people have given you as much help & advice as they possibly can but it is limited as to what anyone can do via an internet forum and it does seem like the thread is going round in circles now. I do wish you well in whatever decision you make & know it will not be easy for you whatever that decision is.
Please feel free to send me a PM if you would like this thread re-opened at any stage for you to update.