CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: Davyboy16 on November 04, 2012, 08:43:30 PM
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Hi everyone,
We are looking for our new puppy and we have done loads of homework and confident we are knowledgable enough now to make a decision to get the right puppy for us. However, there is much talk about puppy farms which of course is something that needs to be stopped.
I'm sure there are different levels of puppy farms with differing scales but a puppy farm is a puppy irrespective of size and scale.
Many breeders advertise their puppies as being born and reared in the family home and that the mum is usually a family pet. We have now been to a couple of breeders on our search, the first one had four cockers who obviously lived in the home and were loved and cared for. The second was different and this is where I would like some advice please.
The breeder currently has two litters available which were in the household, we only saw one of the litters of which the mum was lovely and the puppies although only 4 weeks old looked like very nice looking cockers. What has concerned us is that she has 12 cockers in total and these live in kennels next to the house. I'm in no doubt they are loved and a big part of the breeders life but it just didn't sit well with me or my wife that the dogs were kept outside in kennels like this. Our other concern was the breeders ability to dedicate the required time to litters when there is 12 other dogs to care for.
Like I have said we don't doubt the dogs are not loved and cared for but is this the sort of environment a new puppy should come from or is this a typical breeder environment?
At the end of the day if we are not comfortable with the breeder we won't get our new puppy from them but I would like to know what kind of environment other cocker owners got their puppies from.
Thanks for your help.
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If you're not comfortable with it, don't go for it - I think you've already made that decision. With 12 dogs and some kept outside it sounds a bit like a mini puppy farm to me. Perhaps not the best level of care that you'd want for your pup.
My puppy came from a breeder who owns 4 cockers (one from each generation) and 2 red setters. She has bred about 25 litters since she started many years ago. All of the dogs are pets (some sleep in the bedroom!). She also runs a grooming service. She has shown some of her dogs. She is obviously very experienced, but interested in breeding dogs with the right temperament, health, and nice looks. All the pups are bred in her home in pens, never outside.
I think it is very clear when you visit a litter whether you should get one - you get a gut feel. If you hesitate and feel something's not quite right, then move on. It can be hard, as those pups are so damn cute, but you have to feel that you trust the breeder fully.
Good luck with the search - it's worth waiting for the right one, that you feel comfortable with.
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I got Emily from a show breeder who had kennels. The puppies were raised in the house, but the dogs were mostly kept in kennels otherwise. Breeders who show (or work their dogs) can often have over 10 dogs as you have seen, especially if they're developing a line/type. It's is often not practical to house all of the dogs indoors all of the time especially with stud dogs and bitches in season.
A good breeder will be able to dedicate the necessary time to all of their dogs and their attitude towards the dogs should be quite apparent. Just because dogs are kept indoors doesn't necessarily define a good breeder (IMO) and having looked at some adverts I think advertising this can often create the wrong impression. I wouldn't assume that a breeder who houses their dogs in kennels is a puppy farmer. Just as i wouldnt assume a breeder who keeps all the dogs inside is a good one. Have a good look at all the dogs there - are they friendly and happy, healthy-looking? Things to be wary of are shy adults showing any obsessive behaviours. Also are the dogs groomed? Puppy farmer type breeders are unlikely to spend the time on such things. I'd say go with your instinct, but don't write a breeder off just because the dogs don't live inside the house. Make sure the breeder allows you to see the kennels - any trying to hide is not a good sign. I'd also be asking the breeder why they are breeding.
Don't know whether any of that helps, but good luck with your search. It can be quite a daunting task!
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when we were searching i rang one breeder & something didnt sit right after i arranged to see the pups. Went on to tell me to take the pup that day when we had nothing prepared & Then told me what were down as 8 weeks old were actually only just 6 weeks. Was so shocked i said id get back to him (needed to process & calm down). When i rang back, to cancel i got no end of abuse off him & called a time waster not to mention the stuff i cant type.
We eventually got our pup from a lovely breeder who kept 3 working cockers, mum & dad then one from a previous litter (she was a very small pup & never grew properly & they refused to sell her) shes now part of there pack & has grown into a healthy dog. All dogs work every day & were kept outside in very posh kennels. The pups were kept in very clean conditions with a heat lamp. We met all their cockers. Then went into the house to meet the rest of the dogs (miniature dashounds) who were show dogs, again very well kept. We asked and were asked a lot of questions etc. The 2 breeds were each of the couples breed loves. Jethro was part of his mothers second litter & final litter. They had turned down 1 family as they didnt feel there dogs were the right breed for them. They also insited on you sleeping on the decision & we went back the following day.
The two experiences were totally different & my advice to you is go with your gut instinct, if something doesn't feel right it probably isn't. Hope that helps.
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Another good point from chocolate hero - is the breeder trying to push you to buy a pup there and then? Not a good sign if they are.
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When we looked at getting Ozzy we wanted to make sure he was worth the price as to make sure it wasn't a puppy farm (which it wasn't) we got him from a couple who had owned cockers for over 30 years and they only had the mother (the father was from Nottingham) and there son owned the grandmother. they told us to make sure it's the right choice of breed, telling us the pros and cons of owning a cocker and how energetic they are so from all that we knew it deffintly wasn't a puppy farm, but if you don't like the sound of this breeder then I wouldn't get a puppy from them
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The breeder we got Barney, our Fauve, from had 7 other dogs at the time. This is because she shows them and doesn't rehome dogs that have retired from showing/breeding so she still had the first Fauve she ever got, even though it had never been able to have a litter due to fertility problems. I think this is commendable. Pippa's breeder on the other hand had only two dogs, but she does rehome dogs which have retired from the ring or which didn't make the grade. IMHO Barney's breeder showed more love and dedication to her dogs.
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I wouldn't take the fact the breeders dogs are kenneled to mean its a puppy farm at all. Freya is from working dogs and her breeder has around 8 dogs that he works and occasionally has a litter from one of his bitches. They are of coursxe kenneled most of the time as many working dogs are. When it comes to the pups being born and raised they are brought into the kitchen in a large crate and so are socialised and accustomed to the noises of the household. The breeders children play with the pups and cuddle them regularly, and started using Freya's name from 6 weeks so she knew it when she came home :luv: She also came ready crate trained due to being in one with mum. Shes an incredible little dog with no issues and I wouldn't think twice on who i'd go to for my next cocker pup :lol2:
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I agree with everybody. I bought Jinley from a breeder who had a number of puppies available from about 3 litters. She also had 5 acres of land with about 10 lovely cockers running free.
IMO I would prefer to buy a puppy from a responsible breeder who keeps their puppies in clean, heated outdoor kennels (one who health checks their dams and sires and understands genetics) than somebody who breeds the odd litter with no thoughts into puppy health or whether the puppys might come back into their ownership.
Responsible breeders should not be confused with puppy farms.
But if it doesnt feel right - it probably isnt.
Pat
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I agree with everybody. I bought Jinley from a breeder who had a number of puppies available from about 3 litters. She also had 5 acres of land with about 10 lovely cockers running free.
IMO I would prefer to buy a puppy from a responsible breeder who keeps their puppies in clean, heated outdoor kennels (one who health checks their dams and sires and understands genetics) than somebody who breeds the odd litter with no thoughts into puppy health or whether the puppys might come back into their ownership.
Responsible breeders should not be confused with puppy farms.
But if it doesnt feel right - it probably isnt.
Pat
I have to agree - many responsible, respected breeders keep their adult dogs in kennels outside, but the dam with a litter is moved indoors to be cared for and for the puppies to begin the socialisation process. The health checks and understanding of genetics is really more important than some 'hobby' breeders realise. But, as said before, go with your gut.
There might be some members on here who may be familiar with the breeder that you mention - if you say in what area they are, someone might well pm you then you can let them know the name privately and you may get some firsthand knowledge. You could always start a new thread for this - just saying 'Does anyone know of breeders in the ........ area?
Good luck with your search and I'm sure you'll find the right pup out there just waiting for you. :lol2:
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I understand how you feel as a first time dog owner (as an adult anyway!) I spent over a year researching the right breed and looking for the right breed - we werent sure whether a minature schnauzer was for us or a cocker (very different!) needless to say we went for a cocker who we got from a wonderful breeder who owned 7 dogs and had a few litters a year and clearly loved every single one. However, we also went to see a little of schnauzers (or so I thought) in the middle of no-wheresville I was intrugued what was in all her barns so when she showed me the puppy and I asked if she had any others we could see well...to be honest I wished I never asked I have never seen so many minature schnuazers in my life and scotties too im pretty sure she had more as well she didnt show us, she didnt ask us anything about ourselves or our lifestyle and was pretty keen for us to make a decision there and then! I had arranged a secret code (lifting of the glasses ha ha!) if I thought yes and he was pretty suprised when I didnt so much as touch my glasses as he thought I would want any puppy as they are all sooo cute!. When we got in the car I said it did not sit right with me at all and he agreed, we drove away and never went back-to this day almost 8 months on I wonder if it was a puppy farm....I have no experience of these things so im not sure but they must have had 40 odd dogs and puppies....I also wonder whether I should or whether I should still report her, I still virtually every day think about it.....
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he- I may add being my husband!!!!!! :005:
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I understand how you feel as a first time dog owner (as an adult anyway!) I spent over a year researching the right breed and looking for the right breed - we werent sure whether a minature schnauzer was for us or a cocker (very different!) needless to say we went for a cocker who we got from a wonderful breeder who owned 7 dogs and had a few litters a year and clearly loved every single one. However, we also went to see a little of schnauzers (or so I thought) in the middle of no-wheresville I was intrugued what was in all her barns so when she showed me the puppy and I asked if she had any others we could see well...to be honest I wished I never asked I have never seen so many minature schnuazers in my life and scotties too im pretty sure she had more as well she didnt show us, she didnt ask us anything about ourselves or our lifestyle and was pretty keen for us to make a decision there and then! I had arranged a secret code (lifting of the glasses ha ha!) if I thought yes and he was pretty suprised when I didnt so much as touch my glasses as he thought I would want any puppy as they are all sooo cute!. When we got in the car I said it did not sit right with me at all and he agreed, we drove away and never went back-to this day almost 8 months on I wonder if it was a puppy farm....I have no experience of these things so im not sure but they must have had 40 odd dogs and puppies....I also wonder whether I should or whether I should still report her, I still virtually every day think about it.....
I can understand you still wondering whether you should report it or not. The problem being that it isn't actually illegal to 'farm' puppies - just immoral!! It depends on what sort of conditions the dogs were in, whether they were clean, and the dogs looked well cared for, despite there being so many of them. If you are at all concerned, then a call to the RSPCA can't hurt, and then they can check - if they are happy, then there's no harm done, if not, then you've done those dogs a favour! Go with your gut instinct on this one.
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piph, I have just noticed our dogs are virtually the same age (all but a day!) aaaah !!!! is your a terror too??!!!!
I think you have spurred me on to contact RSPCA ...I have been thinking about it for that long at least I will have done my bit....
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piph, I have just noticed our dogs are virtually the same age (all but a day!) aaaah !!!! is your a terror too??!!!!
I think you have spurred me on to contact RSPCA ...I have been thinking about it for that long at least I will have done my bit....
Oh yes, so they are! :005: Yes Ozzy is a terror, but getting better very slowly! I'd like to know what response you get from the RSPCA - be sure to let us know! And, if you haven't phoned them yet, ask them to let you know what their findings are.
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This sounds more like a commercial breeder to me :-\ and if something doesn't sit right with you always walk away.
When i was looking for Ruby i went to see a breeder who also had around 12 or more cockers.The 3 or 4 litters she had at the time were in kennels (under heat lamps) next to the house.
The breeder has a good reputation but have since realised/learned that they are a commercial breeder.
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I phoned the rspca who were relatively helpful and just told me they will look into it...im not really sure whether they will come back to me or not? Im assuming probably not...may follow up in a month or so.....
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When i was looking for Ruby i went to see a breeder who also had around 12 or more cockers.The 3 or 4 litters she had at the time where in kennels (under heat lamps) next to the house.
The breeder has a good reputation but have since realised/learned that they are a commercial breeder.
If they have a good reputation and look after their cockers in clean conditions, health test etc does it matter if they are commercial?
Seems to me there are much worse breeders out there ;)
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They use their dogs for money and that is wrong. It would be very difficult to find enough good homes, we had a litter of 4 puppies in the Summer where it took us 10 weeks to find 3 suitable homes and at the same time there was a commercial breeder who had 6 litters and 39 puppies :-\.
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Sooner they were with a respected commercial breeder carrying out the health tests etc than a puppy farmer or a hobby breeder who didn't have a clue.
The bitches don't have a choice in any of it, showing, commercial breeding or having a litter to get holiday money, so what makes one any better than the other?
As for making money, we all say there isn't any to be made anyway. ;)
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When i was looking for Ruby i went to see a breeder who also had around 12 or more cockers.The 3 or 4 litters she had at the time where in revamped kennels (under heat lamps) next to the house.
The breeder has a good reputation but have since realised/learned that they are a commercial breeder.
If they have a good reputation and look after their cockers in clean conditions, health test etc does it matter if they are commercial?
Seems to me there are much worse breeders out there ;)
I didn't say it did matter :huh:
Though I think churning out many,many litters in one year claiming it's for the love of the breed does matter,there are far too many unwanted puppies as it is.I also don't think passing on the costs of health testing by charging more for puppies is very ethical.However,Having said that given a choice i would obviously choose a health testing commercial breeder over a puppy farm.
I could add many more negative things about this commercial breeder but i think i've said enough and this is wandering off topic.
Edited to add :-
The bitches don't have a choice in any of it, showing, commercial breeding or having a litter to get holiday money, so what makes one any better than the other?
Any breeder that breeds for that reason is disgusting.
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The thing is that there are very few "respected" commercial breeders out there.....
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There is no such thing as a respectable commercial breeder. Most of them don't test their bitches and have a few tested dogs so that saves on stud fees. The difference between them and reputable breeders is that they breed for other people whereas the reputable breeders breed for themselves with the intention of keeping a puppy :blink:.
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A commercial breeder I know of out in the sticks has a few studs he uses over again and 20+ bitches!
The puppy buying public only see part of his set up. I often wonder what happens to the bitches after there is no use for them, never seen any rehommed but they are not at the kennels/house either >:D Local vets I know never see the adult dog but often deal with the poorly bred offspring brought in by new owners. :'(
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There is no such thing as a respectable commercial breeder.
That's quite a sweeping statement.....
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I bought Holly and Chloe from a commercial breeder. Although her dogs were well looked after and she would get veterinary treatment for them if necessary, she did not health test. When I knew somebody else was looking to get a dog from them I told them to ask if they were health tested. They got the answer that the vet had checked them and she knew they were healthy. Unless she had the gift of second sight, how could she know anything of the sort?
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What's the difference between a 'commercial breeder' and a 'puppy farmer'? Seems to me that the first is just a more polite name for the second!
After all, you wouldn't say there was any difference between a 'commercial pig breeder', and a 'pig farmer', would you? So why differentiate just because it's puppies? :shades:
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There was with mine. She did get veterinary treatment for her dogs which as far as I know, puppy farms don't.
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What's the difference between a 'commercial breeder' and a 'puppy farmer'? Seems to me that the first is just a more polite name for the second!
After all, you wouldn't say there was any difference between a 'commercial pig breeder', and a 'pig farmer', would you? So why differentiate just because it's puppies? :shades:
What is the difference?
Why is it acceptable to farm livestock?
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In my opinion it is the environment that tells the difference between a puppy farmer and commercial breeder, the conditions are usually filthy whereas a commercial breeder keeps it clean and probably has proper kennels :-\.
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What's the difference between a 'commercial breeder' and a 'puppy farmer'? Seems to me that the first is just a more polite name for the second!
There can be a fine line between the two that's for sure and also it can depend on what your definition of a puppy farm is - it can vary depending on who you're talking to. You can definitely distinguish between those that breed puppies on an industrial scale from hundreds of bitches (often kept in squalid conditions in remote areas) with no health testing or veterinary care and those who keep say 20 bitches and a couple of stud dogs in clean, licensed conditions and who do at least some health testing. Both are breeding dogs for profit but there is a clear difference between these two types of volume breeder, wouldn't you agree?
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Absolutely agree ;)
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What's the difference between a 'commercial breeder' and a 'puppy farmer'? Seems to me that the first is just a more polite name for the second!
There can be a fine line between the two that's for sure and also it can depend on what your definition of a puppy farm is - it can vary depending on who you're talking to. You can definitely distinguish between those that breed puppies on an industrial scale from hundreds of bitches (often kept in squalid conditions in remote areas) with no health testing or veterinary care and those who keep say 20 bitches and a couple of stud dogs in clean, licensed conditions and who do at least some health testing. Both are breeding dogs for profit but there is a clear difference between these two types of volume breeder, wouldn't you agree?
Very well put. :D
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i think you have to go with your gut feeling - if something doesnt feel right then it probably isnt.
When i got my lab, the breeder had 9 dogs of her own - who were kept in kennels outside, but they were working labradors (as in the sense they were "worked") so i think this is fairly standard. She had had two litters of pups within a week and had 18 pups for sale. However, at no point did she rush me to make a decision, although i didnt check the kennels she bought the mum and dad in and both were in excellent condition. The three pups she bought in were all confident, clean and happy, and i felt very confident that they were all well looked after.
I bumped into one of Kira's 1/2 sister a couple of months later, and the breeder had given a number of the puppies to the police force for them to train for various tasks, which apparently she had done in the past. She had also kept the pups and extra 3 weeks so that they did get bought as christmas presents.