Barking at children

[merrysmum]

Help!
Merry's just started barking at children and I'm not sure how best to handle it.
He used to be absolutely fine. He's only 6 months old but has definitely hit the scared phase I've read they go through (he's noticing a lot more than he used to and barking at anything that's unknown - plastic bags blowing about etc.). Do you think this might be the cause and he'll grow out of it or is it something I should be trying to train him out of?

About a month ago we met a lady in the park with 3 young girls, all of whom loved Merry and wanted to play with him - we were there for ages whilst they threw the ball for him and each time he fetched it for them and was a little angel 

There's nothing I can put my finger on which has 'sparked' this - no scary incident that I've witnessed or anything. Our house backs on to a primary school and we also have 2 boys who live next door and are always out in the garden playing. He never barks at them unless their ball hits out fence or something, which is completely understandable.

It has escalated over the past week. This BH weekend we went to a pub with him and had lunch in the garden and tied him to the bench at our feet. It was extremely busy and packed with children. I thought twice about it but decided it would be another good experience for him. Every time a child ran past he went balistic, barking growling and throwing himself about  I could see the parents looking at us clearly thinking why had we brought him.
I told him off each time but none of the parents had the sense to keep their children away 

I just don't know what to do. I am finding I am anxious when we see a child out on a walk now 

This morning we met a lady with a little girl (only about 3 I think). Merry ran up towards them and I started calling him but he just ignored me. The mum was great and said they had 2 cockers at home. Merry was wary of the girl and was barking at her but also looked like he wanted to play. He was constantly wagging his tail and even started play bowing, but was still barking. Each time she walked towards him he ran away and even tried to hide behind me at one point.

So he seems to be better off the lead which makes me wonder if he was guarding us/ the table at the weekend?? 

Can anyone give me any advice on how to deal with this when we're out? I really don't want to have to put him on a lead and watch out for children all the time (almost impossible to avoid in this neighbourhood!). I'm also not sure how best to react myself - should I tell him off when he barks or reassure him?

I was thinking it would be great if I had somebody with a little one who he could get to know and then be ok with but I don't know anybody. I told next door about it and they said they used to have a cocker but had to get rid of him when they had the kids because he snapped at one of the children 

I just don't know what to do because we would like to have children someday and I'd want to be certain that Merry would be fine with them.

[djangonut]

I would make sure that your puppy will sit on command.

I would take him on a lead outside the school at lunchtime when there are just a few kids coming out.  (Most will stay in school for lunch.)

I would stand about fifty yards away from the school gate on the first day.  If he barked when he saw a child I would distract him and require him to sit. Praise him for sitting quietly.

I would get five yards nearer each day,  gently insisting on the sit when he noticed a child.  Praise when sitting quietly.

Some children are silly and giddy with dogs and have to be taught to approach calmly,  and not to pat a dog,  (especially on top of its head which is very threatening).  I encourage calm children to tickle my dogs' chins,  or stroke their throats.  (Water spaniels don't have curls on their throats,  but have a wonderful velvety smooth feel under their chins.)

During the second week of daily outside-of-school visits when you have habituated the puppy to be quiet when children are around,  you could perhaps engineer a situation where a calm, confident child could offer your puppy a treat.  The puppy should be sitting.  Again,  children have to be taught to do this properly.  Treats held in fingers get snapped at,  and fingers can get nipped.  Get children to offer treats from the flat of the hand.

If you stay calm and move forward in small steps your dog will eventually become better with children.  It may take a month,  but your dog will have fifteen years after that of not barking at children, so it's worth it!

John

[Robbie34]

Is he barking at the children because he wants them to play with him?

Charley still does this with a neighbour's children.  They love playing with him, and he gets down on his front paws and barks at them.  He lets them chase him and he goes wild running around the garden.  He eventually lets them catch him and they stroke and tickle him.  It's possible that Merry is doing this rather than being aggressive.

[Cob-Web]

I lend lil'bit out occasionally to be a "stooge child" - a lot of dogs seem to go through this fear of children stage if they don't have daily socialisation with small 'umans   

You could try approaching a local training class and asking if there are any YKC members or similar who would be prepared to help you with socialising him to different sizes of children It might be as simple as having regular meetings with various children and allowing them to play with him and give him treats, but if he is more sensitive, then begin by keeping Merry with you and asking the children to walk close by, while you reward him, and then the children can pass closer dropping treats for him as the pass   

The trick is to make sure you also train him to wait for you to give him permission to play with these "stooge" children so that he doesn't get too confident and begin to run up to children when he sees them

Try not to worry - a friend of mine has a cocker who used to bark at lil'bit and really wasn't comfortable around her when he was younger; but with patience and time, they are now the best of friends and he absolutely loves it when he meets up with her on the beach (they hunt for pebbles together)

[SarahS]

I lend lil'bit out occasionally to be a "stooge child" - a lot of dogs seem to go through this fear of children stage if they don't have daily socialisation with small 'umans   

You could try approaching a local training class and asking if there are any YKC members or similar who would be prepared to help you with socialising him to different sizes of children It might be as simple as having regular meetings with various children and allowing them to play with him and give him treats, but if he is more sensitive, then begin by keeping Merry with you and asking the children to walk close by, while you reward him, and then the children can pass closer dropping treats for him as the pass   

The trick is to make sure you also train him to wait for you to give him permission to play with these "stooge" children so that he doesn't get too confident and begin to run up to children when he sees them

Try not to worry - a friend of mine has a cocker who used to bark at lil'bit and really wasn't comfortable around her when he was younger; but with patience and time, they are now the best of friends and he absolutely loves it when he meets up with her on the beach (they hunt for pebbles together)

The training ideas you have been given sound good. I have a problem that our 7 month old puppy adores children.  We have two here and lots passing through. Our friend's children are confident with dogs too. We walk to school and I make him sit. Mostly children ignore him there. But at the weekend we had to keep him on the lead at the beach, because he would absolutely have run around all the children there I am sure. It is a nightmare.  He loves them and when we went to a pub the other day he barked to get children's attention. It is such a worry because you feel like everyone is looking at you.  I make him sit, and have been trying to teach the 'watch me' command as well as the relaxed down.  But I found that a very tasty treat of a bone to distract him while we were having a drink worked the best this weekend, and a carrot?!?

[Karma]

I told him off each time but none of the parents had the sense to keep their children away 

I wouldn't tell him off, as this could lead him to learn that children fussing him leads to him being told off....
(Dogs don't always make the same connections that we do!).

The advice you have been given sounds good.... though it is important to figure out whether he is wanting to play or if he is nervous... play-bowing and tail-wagging can be used as calming signals as well as an invitation to play.   

[Top Barks]

Just be real careful when getting children involved in training. In this day and age you must ensure that nothing can go wrong.
I would also be doing the feeding of really high value rewards rather than letting kids do it so as to avoid putting your dog in a state of conflict ( dog wants the food but scared to take it)
Praise is usually not enough when using systematic desensitisation unless your dog goes crazy for it and most I've met don't to be honest.
I also wouldn't put a time frame on trying to sort this out and rather than moving five yards closer a day i would do it as the dog was able to cope.
Nothing wrong with asking a dog to sit quietly but not essential IMO.
As long as the dog appeared relaxed then that would be enough for me.
Mark

[merrysmum]

Thanks to everybody who's replied to this topic - there's been some really good advice.

We met some mothers out walking with their children and a cocker the other day and the children really wanted to come and stroke Merry. I expained that he was a little nervous so they were really good and gentle and he loved the attention! He barked at first but I praised him and made a fuss and he seemed to relax.
I think he is just unsure when they run full pelt at him and when they make loud noises ( sensible really!)
Anyway, he seems a lot better and I'm going to start walking him past the school so that he gets used to hearing them more.

Thanks again for all the help - everybody's so nice on here! 

[ludo]

Do you think socialisation tapes would help?  Do any of them have children making noise on them?   

Sorry to piggy back your post but what is the fear stage?  How does this manifest itself normally and how long does it last?  I know about adolescence though I can't find any books on the subject but the fear stage is a mystery to me. 

[Top Barks]

Do you think socialisation tapes would help?  Do any of them have children making noise on them?   

Sorry to piggy back your post but what is the fear stage?  How does this manifest itself normally and how long does it last?  I know about adolescence though I can't find any books on the subject but the fear stage is a mystery to me. 

Dogs often react to the visual stimuli that chlidren give off as well as auditory so tapes would be of limited use Anne.
Puppies go through a second fear response stage anywhere from 5 to 6 or even as late as 11 to 14 months.
This happens because of hormonal changes in the dog. During this time the dog can become fearful of things he was not prieviously scared of.
Careful handling of the pup at this time is needed.
Mark

[ludo]

Thanks Mark ... we'll be asking for your advice when the time comes 

[merrysmum]

Yes thanks Mark,
I think Merry is definitely going through this stage because he's suddenly started to jump at loud noises and bark at things he never used to even notice, such as plastic bags on the ground.
He's just over 7 months so this sounds about right doesn't it?

How long does this stage last and do these fears stay with them or do they regain their confidence afterwards?
Is there anything I should be doing differently during this stage?

When Merry is wary of things I always take him up to them and touch them myself to prove they're not scary and encourage Merry to approach. When he's come up and sniffed them he then seems happy and doesn't pay them anymore attention and just trots off - is this the right thing to do?

I've also read that you should always keep them on the lead during this stage - is this necessary? I have noticed that Merry seems to be trying his boundaries at the moment and is running further away on our walks but so far this hasn't been a problem.

He is also developing a lovely line in selective hearing, little monkey  but so far I've just been putting this down to him being a 'naughty teenager'!
Should I be doing anything in particular about this?
He doesn't come when i call in a normal voice but when I use my 'I've had enough and now I mean business' voice he always sneaks back to me - it's as if he knows what I want him to do, he's just testing how long he can get away with disobeying me for before he has to come! 

Thanks for all the great advice x

[Karma]

When Merry is wary of things I always take him up to them and touch them myself to prove they're not scary and encourage Merry to approach. When he's come up and sniffed them he then seems happy and doesn't pay them anymore attention and just trots off - is this the right thing to do?

I've also read that you should always keep them on the lead during this stage - is this necessary? I have noticed that Merry seems to be trying his boundaries at the moment and is running further away on our walks but so far this hasn't been a problem.

I've been doing exactly the same with Honey for anything she takes a fear of - encouraging her to go up and sniff them.  While it's hard, do make sure you don't try and soothe him - to a dog this will just confirm that they were right to be afraid....    If it's something he's had a big reaction to, maybe treating a calm reaction will help the fear to pass more quickly - we certainly did this with the umbrella Honey decided was the enemy!!!   

As far as the lead thing goes, personally I think it depends on the circumstances.... if you are confident about his recall and he is off lead somewhere secure, I wouldn't keep him on the lead - Honey would go manic without her off-lead walks!!! But we are very lucky to be close to some woods, which she knows her way around pretty well... she wanders off through the bushes, but always catches us up in responce to a call... 

[merrysmum]

Thanks for the response Karma.
I'll be mindful of not soothing him, I usually just walk up to whatever it is and say 'see, it's fine you dafty' and then he comes and sniffs it and then doesn't bat another eyelid at it! You're right though, I don't want him to think he's right to be afraid.
He he.. Honey and the deadly umbrella!  Merry was convinced that an old abandonded tent was an alien life force the other day and then it was a crisp packet this morning  he would've been quite scary in any other circumstances...

Yes Merry's the same on his walks - he'd be bouncing off the walls if he couldn't go off-lead and run around like a loony! We're lucky too that we have some nice places to go near us that are secure so I'll stick with what we're doing now. I do every now and again call him to me and treat him when we're out just to keep him used to doing it ( he's a little naughty though and I swear he knows when I have a treat and when I don't, even if I pretend to go to my pocket and take one out!) and I'll always put him on the lead if we're near a road.

[Karma]

Yes - I try to do at least one proper recall per walk - and always give that a mega treat.  I tend to just use "This way" if she goes racing off in the wrong direction, and she responds well to this - it kind of means come along in this direction, but no great rush, so she still stops and sniffs, but is heading in the right direction.... it also means she doesn't have to stop and sit infront of me to complete the action.  She gets occassional treats for this, especially if she has come very quickly, or come away from a big distraction.  This has meant the only times I've had to use "Come" as a required recall (when a maintenance vehicle was coming through the woods) she obeyed immediately, despite there being 4 other dogs about!!! 
I've also never used "Come" at the end of a walk for putting the lead on - I just tell her it's time for her "lead" and she has a last sniff and trots over (nine times out of ten, anyway) - then she gets lead put on and treats.  That way she's never associated recall with the end of fun!!! 

Sounds like you are handling the fear thing well - I've no idea how long it lasts - and it seems to be coming in fits and starts with Honey - she can be fine for a few days, then something that hasn't caused a problem before will spook her....