Exclusions / Endorsements!!!

[dylandog]

I'm absolutely gutted... I have bought a show cocker. I will try to make this very long winded story short. The puppy was ten months old when I bought him - he is not KC registered, which didn't bother me at the time, as I thought I could always get him registered at a later date should the need arise.

 I did sign a piece of paper stating that I would not use him for breeding or for showing 'without prior knowledge and permission' from the breeder. After some months my interests changed and I felt that I would love to have a go at showing. So I approached the breeder and asked her permission. She was only too pleased to say yes as she could see that my puppy had grown into a gorgeous dog. But my puppy's dam was not registered.

So I asked the KC what the process was to get him KC registered. They said I could get him KC registered through the 'late registration' process as long as his Dam was not over 8 yrs old, but his dam had to be registered first before my dog could be registered. So I approached my dog's breeder who agreed that she would allow her bitch to become KC registered... I said that I would pay all fees of course, £120 in all! And to get my dogs dam registered, the breeder of her sire had to get involved and sign some forms.

So I sent the breeder of my puppy the forms that I recieved from the KC, she duly signed them and sent another form that I had recieved from the KC to the breeder of my puppy's dams breeder to fill in her part.

But that is where the stumbling block is...she will not fill in the form as the dog that she used to breed my puppy's dam was bought in as a 'pet' with endorsements and exclusions that he would only be a pet and would not be used for breeding - but she uses him as a stud dog. So she cannot fill in the form for me as she will implement herself and get in hot water with the 'reputable' stud that she bought the dog from. So it has left me totally devastated, I cannot KC show or breed from my lovely dog. It is such a shame, he is so intelligent, doing well in all his classes and is a P.A.T dog too.

I live on my own and he is my life, I just wanted to show a dog, it's on my 'bucket list'. I can't tell you how disappointed I am. I will try to contest this, but obviously it means getting the breeder of my dog's dam in hot water with the Stud she bought the dog from and possible the KC. I don't want to rock the boat.

I have spoken the the breeder of my puppy's dam and she bought her knowing she wasn't KC registered, but the endorsements and exclusions were not declared when she bought her. She did not want to show, so it did  not worry her that she was not KC registered.  So I didn't know about these exclusions and endorsements either.

What do I do???   I have written to the KC, awaiting thier response. I have all my fingers and toes crossed, but I won't hold my breath! 

[elaine.e]

I'm sorry to say this, but I doubt very much that you're going to succeed in getting your boy KC registered. The owner of your dog's grandsire, who used him as a stud dog despite endorsements on his KC papers is just one of many people that choose to use their endorsed dogs and bitches for breeding purposes. As far as I'm aware the KC can neither prevent people from doing it or punish them afterwards. The only sanction to discourage people from using endorsed dogs is that their progeny can't be KC registered.

As for breeding with your dog (and I see you only mentioned it as a possibility, so I don't know how serious you are), do you know if his parents were DNA tested to check if they were clear of, carriers of or affected by either Progressive Retinal Atrophy or Familial Nephropathy? If they weren't, you don't know your dogs status with regard to those conditions so would need to have him DNA tested and make sure that he was only used on bitches that were also tested. There are other factors too, including that mating isn't always straightforward and without knowledge of breeding how can you ensure that the bloodlines of dog and bitch are compatible?

Any puppies would not be eligible to be KC registered and being perfectly frank you would be joining the legions of breeders without the knowledge, experience or health tested dogs producing potentially unsound and unhealthy puppies. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's the reality.

You obviously have a lovely tempered, intelligent and lovable Cocker who is the apple of your eye. That's great, I have one too and he is everything to me. I understand your disappointment about not being able to do KC shows but companion and fun shows can be even more enjoyable, as can agility, flyball and other activities, all of which you can do with him even though he's not KC registered. So please continue to enjoy what you already do with him and perhaps  explore some new things too

[Jane S]

I have to agree with Elaine - it doesn't seem likely that you will be able to get KC registration for your boy; this was always going to be more difficult with several generations of unregistered dogs due to the fact back along the line an endorsed dog has been used for breeding without the breeder's consent or knowledge. The KC won't be able to do anything unless this breeder agrees to lift the endorsement and there's not much chance of that if the owner of the dog won't even contact them to ask (that isn't surprising though as in the same situation, I would be furious if one of our puppies had been bred from without my knowledge & in breach of the signed contract).

If you really have your heart set on showing at KC shows other than Companion Shows, you could perhaps think about another puppy at some stage, but this time from a reputable breeder who actively shows (as well as doing all the recommended health tests of course). In the meantime, like Elaine says, there are lots of activities you can still do with your lovely boy so it's definitely worth investigating some of those things. You can register him on the Activity Register to enable you to take part in agility, heelwork to music, flyball etc: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/3440

[dylandog]

Hi, thanks for your prompt replies.  I have checked and his parents have been DNA tested for the usual cocker genetic conditions. And, I would never breed with him without first having him DNA tested himself. I would be responsible about it, and it would only be occationally if the situation arose. I would not use him as a 'continuing' stud dog, he's my baby and a pet at the end of the day.

I have read everything that I can find on 'exclusions and endorsements', it's a minefield isn't it!! It does state clearly in the KC rules on E'n'Es, that there are only two that reasons E'n'Es can be put on a dogs records 1. so they cannot be KC registered and 2. exportation, it states that the dog with the endorsements can still be bred from? So this is confusing.  Do you think that the stud that sold my puppy's grand sire to the breeder arranged a 'private contract' stating the dog could not be used for breeding??

Also, I was not made aware of the E'n'Es, and it clearly states that I should of been made aware of, and the KC can step in here and possible over rule the endorsement? The problem has been made worse because the breeder of my puppy mated his mother again and she has just given birth to 8 fabulous puppies. She herself did not know about these endorsements, so she has just found out that she cannot get any of these puppies KC registered... she is fuming too. The breeder of the dam and grandsire should have made it clear to my puppy's breeder that the dog she bought (my puppy's mum) could not be KC registered, but she didn't, so it goes back down the line. And the KC do take a dim view of this as the purchaser was in effect duped into buying what they thought was a puppy that could at some time be KC registered through the 'late registration' process... like I did.

[dylandog]

Me again....

I am going to fight this, as it is not right. I don't want to get anyone in trouble with studs or the KC. But I may have to go back to the stud that sold my puppy's grandsire with the endorsements and ask if they would lift the endorsement for my puppy... is that possible? or does the endorsement have to be lifted from his grandsire. It is obviously going to get the breeder of my puppy's dam in hot water! So I'm in a difficult position.

I do know all about companion shows and the activity register, but I would dearly love to do 'even if it was just one' a KC showing show.

I lost my spaniel of 12 yrs last July to cancer, I still miss him so, then my partner walked out on me after 12 yrs together... never saw it coming! then I lost my horse late last year, so all in all, this was the kick in the teeth I didn't need. I only have him now.

What would you do in my position? x

[Helen]

Personally?  I would leave it and learn from this experience    Frankly it's not worth the heartache.  Enjoy him as the companion and the beautiful dog that he is - you don't need to prove that with a KC rosette 

If you want to show then maybe another dog in the future - frankly this breeder does not sound particularly responsible and sounds like you were mislead about the circumstances of the endorsement 

[Archie bean]

Personally?  I would leave it and learn from this experience    Frankly it's not worth the heartache.  Enjoy him as the companion and the beautiful dog that he is - you don't need to prove that with a KC rosette 

If you want to show then maybe another dog in the future - frankly this breeder does not sound particularly responsible and sounds like you were mislead about the circumstances of the endorsement 

I completely agree with Helen. It sounds like you have had a rough time  and fighting this will probably only lead to more stress and nasty confrontations. It could drag on and on so why put yourself through it? Non registered pups in my experience are usually the result of endorsements somewhere along the line. If you decide you really want to show with a second pup in future then you will know, from all that has happened, to make sure you get a KC registered pup. Remember though that a lot of breeders put endorsements in place even on registered pups to prevent the pups being used for breeding in future.
Enjoy your lovely sounding dog and maybe consider Jane S's suggestion of companion shows or agility.
Would live to see some pics of your boy. 

[Jane S]

Also, I was not made aware of the E'n'Es, and it clearly states that I should of been made aware of, and the KC can step in here and possible over rule the endorsement?

No because this only covers the situation where you buy a KC reg puppy with endorsements but without knowing of the endorsements when you bought that puppy - it doesn't cover the situation where someone may or may not have been duped further back in the line which resulted in your puppy being unregistered.  You bought your boy knowing he wasn't KC registered (I think you've posted previously he's registered with one of the other commercial registries) so you personally weren't deceived  (unless your breeder lied to you and said the litter was KC registered)

I also agree with Helen your breeder (perhaps through lack of knowledge or experience) hasn't really done what a good breeder should do & if KC registration was important to her, it doesn't make sense to breed from your boy's mother at all, let alone twice Perhaps I'm missing something there though...

I think you're setting yourself up for more stress if you try to pursue this further - it's disappointing for you of course and you've learned a hard lesson but sometimes it's best to let go the things you can't change..

[Brimbeck(Dyllan)]

Me again....

I am going to fight this, as it is not right. I don't want to get anyone in trouble with studs or the KC. But I may have to go back to the stud that sold my puppy's grandsire with the endorsements and ask if they would lift the endorsement for my puppy... is that possible? or does the endorsement have to be lifted from his grandsire. It is obviously going to get the breeder of my puppy's dam in hot water! So I'm in a difficult position.

I do know all about companion shows and the activity register, but I would dearly love to do 'even if it was just one' a KC showing show.

I lost my spaniel of 12 yrs last July to cancer, I still miss him so, then my partner walked out on me after 12 yrs together... never saw it coming! then I lost my horse late last year, so all in all, this was the kick in the teeth I didn't need. I only have him now.

What would you do in my position? x

I would show my dog at companion shows and also go to watch open or champ shows and research a possible future show dog from someone who shows the type of dog I'd like.

[Penelope]

I would also show him at fun and companion shows..... They are good fun and you can still win some rosettes with your boy.  Join him up with the companion dog club and then you could enter into shows or classes that are just for companion dog club dogs.  You can enter him in places like the London Pet Show and Discover Dogs.  You never know, you could even end up at Crufts!! We did - our son won junior handling at Discover Dogs when he was 11 years old with our rescue dog - so they qualified for Crufts!!! We went and had a brilliant time - they didn't get placed, but I was so proud of them I cried with happiness!!
You can have some great times with "doggie" people in other ways and as others have said you can always do other activities instead of showing him.
Best of luck and enjoy your dog.

[LynneB]

Hi, thanks for your prompt replies.  I have checked and his parents have been DNA tested for the usual cocker genetic conditions. And, I would never breed with him without first having him DNA tested himself. I would be responsible about it, and it would only be occationally if the situation arose. I would not use him as a 'continuing' stud dog, he's my baby and a pet at the end of the day.

I have read everything that I can find on 'exclusions and endorsements', it's a minefield isn't it!! It does state clearly in the KC rules on E'n'Es, that there are only two that reasons E'n'Es can be put on a dogs records 1. so they cannot be KC registered and 2. exportation, it states that the dog with the endorsements can still be bred from? So this is confusing.  Do you think that the stud that sold my puppy's grand sire to the breeder arranged a 'private contract' stating the dog could not be used for breeding??

Also, I was not made aware of the E'n'Es, and it clearly states that I should of been made aware of, and the KC can step in here and possible over rule the endorsement? The problem has been made worse because the breeder of my puppy mated his mother again and she has just given birth to 8 fabulous puppies. She herself did not know about these endorsements, so she has just found out that she cannot get any of these puppies KC registered... she is fuming too. The breeder of the dam and grandsire should have made it clear to my puppy's breeder that the dog she bought (my puppy's mum) could not be KC registered, but she didn't, so it goes back down the line. And the KC do take a dim view of this as the purchaser was in effect duped into buying what they thought was a puppy that could at some time be KC registered through the 'late registration' process... like I did.

I find it strange that the breeder did not know about the endorsements until she had bred the mother again, or am I reading this wrong?

Also if the parents are not registered how did you find out about the DNA health tests?

[dylandog]

I get where you are all coming from, but it still leaves a real bitter taste in your mouth. Breeders should not be able to get away with buyer a dog with endorsements and then just ignoring them; it's not them it hurts but the likes of me. But when a reputable stud sells a dog to another breeder stating that the dog can't be bred from, what do they think they want the dog for?? Its obvious they are going to breed from them. Why don't they castrate before selling the dog?

I wil be doing some kind of shows with my dog. In fact I'm going to a show this weekend coming, a pedigree class and then in the afternoon a obedience class. We start agility next week, my vet was very worried about my dog starting agility until he was 18 months old.

We enjoy our hospital visiting and gun dog classes too, but I will always regret not being able to get him KC registered... you have to put the boot on the other foot and see it from my perspective, I feel kinda 'cheated'. I couldn't not get my last cocker registered because he was an american x english cocker cross, so I waited for nearly 13 yrs to get what I thought was a cocker I could get registered, all to no avail. I'm not getting any younger so probably won't buy another. I was considering buying  one of my puppy's siblings as they are adorable, but now, not so sure.

In reply to an earlier question; I was given written confirmation that my puppy's sire was DNA and FA tested. So checked this against the list on the KC web site, and yes his father was on thier as tested clear - so he shouldn't be carrying the defective genes. And his mother's parents were clear too. I'm not sure I like what I've stumbled accross. I thought I was going to have a good time, meeting like minded people and just have good fun. But it seems there is a dark and more sinister side to the dog breeding world.

According to KC law, you do have to be made aware at the time of the purchase of the said puppy that it has endorsements on it - my puppy's breeder had do idea that the bitch she bought, his mother has endorsements. When she bought the bitch she was never made aware, but  my puppy's breeder is a true 'home breeder' / hobby breeder selling cockers as 'pets' not for showing or breeding so it did not matter that she was not KC registered. But she wanted to register this litter she has just bred, but now she will not be able to.

It does annoy me when you see the words 'hobby breeder' written write accross thier home web page when you know for a fact they have 24 breeding bitches in outside buildings along with stud dogs... that's not a 'hobby breeder' that's a 'commercial' breeder! The puppies are not socialised like it says on their ad, how could they socialise that many pups?- It's just a breeding factory for money.

At least I purchased my puppy from a true 'hobby breeder' he was born at home and well socialised with everything that you would expect them to be socialised with.  My puppy's breeder could take this further, but doesn't want to upset the apple cart. It doesn't bother me, I have nothing to lose. I have written to the KC, just waiting on thier reply. The KC do get involved if purchasers were not made aware of endorsements when they purchased their puppies, and that is definitely the case here, with me and my puppy's breeder. Yes you could say she was naive too, but everyone starts out somewhere, we have both learnt the hardway.

[JohnK]

We were given the kennel club papers & change of ownership for both Minnie and Dennis when we bought them. They were both from hobby breeders, but were very thorough with the documentation. Did you not think to ask for them at the time of purchase?

[penguins87]

Oh dear Who would think buying a dog could get so complicated eh ?

If you are into the dog world and have even a little experience it can can be daunting and confusing if you want to show,breed or find out about health testing.
 Arm chair criticism  can seem harsh from on a forum where members have a vast experience of most subjects surrounding dogs especially cockers  . But I think people do understand your frustration and that you feel cheated and as you say you have unfortunately learnt the hard way .

Might be Best to wait to hear what the kennel club say in their response to your letter.  Hopefully it will give you a full and detailed understanding of the kennel club extensive  'rules' .

As you mention you are enjoying other activities with your dog and you obviously love him to bits.. The hospital visits sound great and I am sure they bring a lot of joy . 

[Jane S]

We enjoy our hospital visiting and gun dog classes too, but I will always regret not being able to get him KC registered... you have to put the boot on the other foot and see it from my perspective, I feel kinda 'cheated'. I couldn't not get my last cocker registered because he was an american x english cocker cross, so I waited for nearly 13 yrs to get what I thought was a cocker I could get registered, all to no avail. I'm not getting any younger so probably won't buy another. I was considering buying  one of my puppy's siblings as they are adorable, but now, not so sure.

I think we all understand how you are feeling and how disappointed you are and yes you are right there are some very dodgy breeders out there but also plenty of excellent reputable breeders too. I guess this is just a lesson for everybody thinking about getting a puppy that if you want a KC registered puppy, then this is one of the first things you must check on (along with health test results etc). Reputable breeders register their litters so the paperwork is ready at (or soon after) the time the puppies go to new homes - registration isn't something that gets sorted out later by new owners and sadly this is something you have found out the hard way.

I'm not sure that I understand the reference to "armchair criticism" in the post above - nobody has criticised you personally - we have all just tried to help & explain how the endorsements system works, even if it wasn't what you perhaps wanted to hear. Anyway, good luck - hope you get the answers you're looking for from the Kennel Club and that you continue enjoying your lovely boy