Just not getting anywhere

[CockersIndie]

Yesterday we had an awful day. Indie was in total hunt mode, no focus or anything. I felt so disheartened. Work so hard with her, we do recall training every walk, in the garden etc and yet as soon as she smells something, she's off.
I've posted before and now I just feel like I'm not getting anywhere with her. she could barely focus on me for a second without trying to drag me towards whatever she had smelt.

Writing this makes me realise I need to take a breath and get her to focus, and then recall.

But real question is- is there a magic wand which stops her from hunting in the first place? She's already on a longline to prevent her from going- although i miss it sometimes- she's so quick when she does go. But even if I hold it, yeaterday she was just yanking desperate to go, with me trying to get her attention.

[Juno]

But real question is- is there a magic wand which stops her from hunting in the first place?

Apart from keeping her on the lead, no - she's displaying natural behaviour for the breed.

For a show type I think Juno has a fairly strong hunt drive and would also chase if given the chance.  We have been going to gundog training to help channel this so she hunts with me and not on her own terms.  It is very rare these days that we just go for a walk - every walk we train in some way or another - memory retrieves, stop whistle, recall, daft tricks she knows - and I always have to keep an eye on her; it's rarely just a leisurely stroll!  Would you consider gundog training for Indie?

Apart from recall training what else do you do?  What motivates her?  Does she like to retrieve?  What about hunting for tennis balls/dummies in long grass?  If she enjoys hunting and finding you could build up to incorporating this into some walks.

Aside from this, can you walk on more sterile ground for a while?  Somewhere with less scent where you can practise her training with less distraction?  Remember too that it's springtime so there are lots of new smells on the ground.

[Emilyoliver]

Sorry you’re feeling so disheartened.  It’s difficult at the moment as it’s summer - ‘rabbit season’ as well as bird nesting season!  Unfortunately there’s no magic wand which will stop her from hunting – it’s what they are bred to do.  With my dogs it is always a case of being super-alert to what may be in the vicinity of any walks.  If I am in an unfamiliar area, they are on lead until I know what’s around.  In areas we go more regularly, I make sure I watch and listen and when we get to areas where rabbits/ pheasants congregate, they go on lead.  But it means making sure I have their attention before they start to chase.  Their recalls are pretty good usually, but I cannot compete with their inbred instinct once they are in chase-mode.  So it’s up to me to be watchful (and listening!) all the time. 

My puppy is being trained differently, and I hope to (one day!) be able to stop him on the whistle.  In the meantime, he is not allowed to chase anything and is walked separately from the two adults in ‘gamey’ areas so he doesn’t learn all about chasing from them.  Once they have been allowed to chase, and realise how rewarding it is, it is very difficult to change that behaviour.  I (or any food reward) will never be more interesting than chasing prey.  Even if Pip learns to stop to the whistle, though, I will still have to be alert to what is around as his over-riding drive will be to hunt.  It is a case of constantly managing situations and behaviour.  Hard work!!  But worth it to have a breed with such a zest for life.

Are you able to walk/ exercise Indie somewhere where there are no bunnies/ birds – sports field/ park or similar?  Does she like toys/ balls?  Could you play ‘find it’ with these?  Ollie absolutely loves this and will choose this over a walk/ hike.  Playing a game such as this with her may do two things – a) help you (and her) to relax and take a breath, and b) will help with her focus on something other than hunting bunnies/ birds.  I find sometimes I get used to walking and hiking as I enjoy that, but my dogs really love close interaction and games and it is great for bonding.  So I mix the two up.

Otherwise I might suggest getting in touch with a gundog trainer to see whether you could book a few 1-2-1s – they may be able to help with suggestions on how to perhaps modify your recall/ focus training.  A change might help you both as it sounds like the current situation is causing you both a fair amount of stress.

Hope you find a workable, less-stressful solution.

[CockersIndie]

Thank you for your lengthy replies!

She's not actually chasing anything real, just scent. 100% I realise it's the breed coming out in her. It's just frustrating as her recall is fantastic- I've whistle trained her and she comes to her name too- in any other situation- I just can't trust her not to go off a long way and then get lost etc.

I did used to play 'find it' games with food and balls but I thought this may have contributed to it so stopped. If you think it might help, I shall reintroduce them. Equally, we play games of fetch, and I do waits, down and wait training with her. We don't go far walking for walking sale- usually I've got a ball or I'm calling her back and treating.

I have considered gundogs training but I am concerned with the reputation of 'no food' training and use of slop leads etc which I'm not a fan of if I'm honest.

[*Marie*]

Bracken goes to Gun Dog Training and it's treats as rewards, so very good, Bracken loves to run & hop in woods and goes at speed and comes back, he does pick up the odd scent and decides to go on deaf ears, I'm putting it down to this lovely hot weather bringing out the smells and his breed of course!

[Juno]

I was a bit nervous about gun dog training too as we've all read a horror story or two.  I know a decent trainer will adapt their techniques and methods for each dog but, honestly, he was so calm and kind with Juno even though she barked like a nutter through sheer excitement at first He did say he would prefer not to use treats and we used the retrieve as a reward instead and lots and lots of praise.  There was no 'correction' other than an "ah-ah!".  I was pleasantly surprised that Juno was motivated enough to learn something without food.  Whereabouts are you in the country?  Maybe someone can recommend a trainer or two for you to research. 

I have found that Juno is less inclined to bog off following her nose if I am providing things for her to do.  One of her favourite games is memory retrieves - dropping a dummy/ball and then leading her away from it in a a straight line, stopping and sending her back to retrieve it.  We started with short distances and have built it up to quite a distance and she LOVES it.  I also put her in a sit, walk away and chuck a dummy into the undergrowth, return to her and send her to find it.  I think it is quite basic in terms of proper gundog training but seems to keep her mind occupied pretty well. 

[Jonnydog]

I've had similar problems with Penny and have come to a compromise: I let her run offlead in open areas - field or beach - but in woods and areas with a lot of cover, I keep her on a longish lead. She doesn't seem to mind this and if she pulls towards a scent and gets excited while on the lead I use the 'leave it' command and treat her the minute I get eye contact. Like Indie, once she's in full chase mode, she only comes back in her own time, despite being pretty good at other times. I'm afraid I do let her chase on the beach at low tide, except when there are chicks around, but it's the only place. I always carry high value treats and give her something every time she returns, whether to the whistle or not. My other dogs were like this when they were young, but eventually became less impulsive (except with pheasants!).

[Pip C]

Wow, I'm glad to know we are not the only ones with this problem.   Zac is exactly the same.  He gets a sniff and just goes.  If I catch him before he goes into full pelt mode and call him he does come back, but a second too late and he's off.  He does come back when I blow the whistle but its getting very sloppy and he doesn't always come back first time.  For that reason I have now started using the long line again as I want him to come back after one whistle not 3 or 4 attempts. 

I have read that when dogs find scents it becomes almost like an addiction and the more they do it the more they crave it.  For that reason Zac now has more time on the lead and time running about is more controlled and interspersed with play.  The problem that I have had is actually getting him to play.  He's fine at home and in the garden but too consumed by the smells to bother when out.  It is so difficult trying to make yourself the most interesting thing on a walk.

I am trying to mostly walk him on the beach and less in rural areas.  We have had a hard time keeping him on the beach and stopping him from running to the dunes which is where the long line is good and gives us more control.

Buy Total Recall by Pippa Mattinson.  I am only a quarter of the way through it, but it is a great book.  Everything that I have read so far is so applicable to us and I'm sure will be with a lot of people.

We are seeing a gundog trainer for a 1:1 on sunday so if I get any useful tips I will post them on here.

[CockersIndie]

Thank you so much for all your support everyone. Really helpful.

Today we went for a activity intense wall. So I resumed 'find it' games with food and interspersed that with fetch games, impulse control and some general recall. She 'went' twice. But only when we were inbetween activities. And to be fair, she'd found a fox hole the second time so a big distraction.

So I THINK she just needs to be worked during the walk constantly. And hopefully over time her impulses will lower. Will keep up with this though, and should we fall backwards will definitely consult some help...

Would still like to hear thoughts on gundogs training though. I've taught indie to 'drop' which I believe
Is opposite to delivering to hand as in gundog training so if we were to go down that route I suspect I'd get nagged at for instilling some habits which aren't suited to gundogs!!

[Juno]

She sounds like a busy, clever girl

I wouldn't worry too much about the delivering to hand, etc. at the mo!  Juno used to run away with the dummy (my fault for going after her to retrieve stolen articles as a puppy I expect!) so I back chained a retrieve to hand with a clicker.  It's not perfect but she'll drop it neatly into my hand 90% of the time. To be honest I don't really care if she spits it at my feet - her job is to find it and bring it to me, but to keep the trainer happy I do ask her to pick it up and give it to me properly

I am only talking from my very basic and limited experience with what has worked with my dog so if anyone wants to step in and correct me, please do!  I expect you could do all of this without going to see a trainer but I think it's good sometimes to have feedback from a fresh pair of eyes.  We only go once in a while... and only 1:1 as Juno's too reactive in groups. 

[CockersIndie]

Haha so much for 'relaxed, less driven show cockers'!

I must admit I was knackered afterwards- we didn't walk half as far as we were keeping busy but she looked like she had a good time too.

Onwards and upwards!

[CockersIndie]

Haha so much for 'relaxed, less driven show cockers'!

I must admit I was knackered afterwards- we didn't walk half as far as we were keeping busy but she looked like she had a good time too.

Onwards and upwards!

But if anyone has any other games they play, would be gratefully received!!

[Emilyoliver]

Haha so much for 'relaxed, less driven show cockers'!

I must admit I was knackered afterwards- we didn't walk half as far as we were keeping busy but she looked like she had a good time too.

Onwards and upwards!

Ollie my show type has always been a challenge - very 'worky' and excitable.  My worker pup has so far, been easier than Ollie was as he is more sensible.

Great that you had a good walk - yes it can be hard work!  Especially sometimes when you may just feel like a quiet stroll after a long day.

Other games I play with Ollie are giving him direction commands and he does these while we walk. I reward him by throwing his ball. Originally taught these for agility, but left/ right can be used anywhere. Also put him in a wait, then walk away with ball and plant it where he can see it. Only allow him to get it when I say go. He loves this (and is little b....r for breaking his wait, but makes me laugh as I have to race him to get the ball).

Do you do agility with her?  Ollie totally loved it (unfortunately had to stop due to disc problems   .  If there are any logs/ obstacles on walks I get my dogs to walk along them/ jump over them - good for balance, etc as well as something to do.

Don't worry too much about gundog trainers being harsh.  The ones at the club where I go are lovely. No shouting or harsh handling, and treats ok if you want to use them. If you do decide to go to one - see if you can find one recommended. While there are still some who use dubious methods, I think there are many more who don't. And I have found the advice very useful, sensible and the guys down to earth. (although it was quite funny watching our 6ft something trainer go all soft over a puppy).

As you said 'onwards and upwards' - well done and enjoy 

[CockersIndie]

I think I'm going to tentatively look into gundog training, so if anyone does have recommendations for reward based fun (?!) gundog trainers in Surrey (Guildford have a Labrador only one- no spaniels 😱) I'd be interested to hear!

Yes I do agility with her- she's fab! Definitely thrives doing something. We've just about done all the equipment too.

[chrisp]

I'm watching this with interest as Mollie (show type) will never return once she has a smell and her recall is zilch! Hence I can never let her offlead  .  Look forward to reading the replies.