Stud dogs and behavioural changes

[Emilyoliver]

Would appreciate hearing about any experiences of changes/not to a male dog's behaviour once he has been used at stud.  Thanks.

[Jane S]

I'm sure you'll have people posting saying their dog didn't change at all but the trouble is no owner can predict what their own dog will be like once used at stud - all dogs are different. We've owned a number of stud dogs over the years and the most common behavioural issues we have seen include much increased interest in other bitches when out and about (which obviously gets even more intent if there actually is a bitch in season in the neighbourhood) and less tolerance towards other males when out and about (and sometimes with other boys they might live with). Doesn't happen all the time or with every dog but it does happen...

[Emilyoliver]

Thanks, Jane.  Looking to see what changes may be likely/possible and whether I'd want to deal with them/not!

[Nicola]

Rodaidh is used as a stud dog for Hearing Dogs and it undoubtedly has affected his temperament, and working with our stud dogs every day as I do I would say that it is common to the vast majority of them. He's still absolutely wonderful with people, but not with other dogs. He has zero tolerance for puppies, even tiny ones, 'puppy licence' doesn't exist for him, or for any of our stud dogs really. I have to be extremely careful with him because he will flatten them if they get in his face, as puppies tend to do. He also has zero tolerance for other male dogs, especially bouncy young ones, and again he really will go for them and it's not just noise/handbags. He never starts it, he only reacts if they get in his face, and he always warns them first but when they inevitably don't listen to him and persist he'll hammer them. I have to be very careful with him around other dogs and it's not ideal at times when I'm hauling him away from some cute little 12 week old puppy or friendly young dog because he's about to flatten it  I can't have another male dog in the house, he will tolerate one of his own sons, Chester, who is also a HD stud dog and trained gundog that we go shooting with who stays with us when his fosterers are on holiday, but I don't leave the pair of them unattended. I run training classes for the HD breeding dogs and have to limit it to two stud dogs per class and keep them at opposite ends of the hall because there are some of them who will go for each other pretty much on sight, the Labs and Cockers are worse than the Poodles. Luckily for me Rodaidh has never started cocking his leg indoors and he doesn't mither after bitches but again, a lot of if not most of our stud dogs do, I've just been lucky with Ro on that score.

Would I do it again with another dog, I genuinely don't know. Before I even considered it they would obviously have to prove themselves to be worth using by either trialling or being an outstanding, proven working dog with the right attributes. The biggest question for me though is, is it worth changing the dog for? For Rodaidh it has been, he has sired some 12 litters now as part of a carefully planned and structured breeding programme and is Hearing Dogs' most successful stud dog ever in terms of pass rate for his offspring - Ro himself has had more assessments than I can count now and he consistently produces offspring of a very consistent type. They are being bred for a purpose and as well as HD 3 of his pups have been donated to South Wales Police and Stansted Airport Police and have all passed the relevant training and are working as sniffer/detection dogs. Several of them have been trained for gundog work by their fosterers also. If however it was the case that the dog was only going to be used a couple of times to breed litters for no particular purpose that couldn't be met by another established stud dog then for me it wouldn't be worth it; the disadvantages would outweigh letting him sire a couple of litters for the sake of it.

[Emilyoliver]

Thanks, Nicola - useful information.  Do you think that dogs used infrequently might be less affected?  Or is it likely a life-changer regardless of the frequency?  Suppose it all depends on the individual dog (as with most things!)

I asked the question not because am planning to put my dog up for stud – I’m not - but because I found myself wondering the other day what I would say if somebody asked to use him.  Realised I really didn’t know!  I’m not talking about someone in the park asking – I’ve had a number of interesting comments about my dog from experienced triallers and judges – he is currently being trained as a gundog and will be worked next season so will be visible to more gundog people.  By this time he will be nearly two, and if not overly compromised/ hindered by me, will hopefully be fulfilling (at least some of) his potential.

So it got me thinking about the question of what I’d say if someone asked.  If the bitch was worked, health tested and had the right breeding and Pip was blazing a trail of glory (!) then what would be the reason/s to say no.

The marking in the house I’ve heard from breeders before, but I would hope that this could be retrained to some extent.  As for the aggression, that could be a potential blocker as I have another entire male and would not choose to make his life difficult for the sake of ‘a litter or two’. 

It’s all hypothetical (and likely improbable even) that someone would ask, but I just thought I should consider my options in advance rather than as a response to a request when I might not be thinking carefully through all the risks.  (I was asked years ago in South Africa by a number of show breeders whether they could use Ollie at stud, but managed to escape having to make a firm decision as I left the country shortly after having been asked!)

[aliceandlouis]

Thanks, Nicola - useful information.  Do you think that dogs used infrequently might be less affected?  Or is it likely a life-changer regardless of the frequency?  Suppose it all depends on the individual dog (as with most things!)

So it got me thinking about the question of what I’d say if someone asked.  If the bitch was worked, health tested and had the right breeding and Pip was blazing a trail of glory (!) then what would be the reason/s to say no.

It’s all hypothetical (and likely improbable even) that someone would ask, but I just thought I should consider my options in advance rather than as a response to a request when I might not be thinking carefully through all the risks.  (I was asked years ago in South Africa by a number of show breeders whether they could use Ollie at stud, but managed to escape having to make a firm decision as I left the country shortly after having been asked!)

I find this thread fascinating and agree that Nicola's response is really interesting.

Someone once floated the idea with me of them using my Louis at stud (which, given he has never been shown and has no track record in anything other than being a comical dog, seemed to come out of nowhere  ).  My instinct was to say no, for the reasons given by Nicola about the potential for changes in behaviour, and also because Louis has endorsements on him (is that the phrase?) to prevent him from being used for breeding, or at least preventing any puppies from being registered with the KC.  I asked his breeder what she felt and had I been really really keen she said she would have 'considered' removing the endorsement but after talking things through with her I was very clear in my mind that it was a 'no-no'.  I felt that as the owner of a dog of her breeding I owed it to her to ensure that her 'line' was not misused in any way - and if I were ever asked by anyone again I could now answer honestly that his breeder doesn't allow it.  So, if you don't want to use him at stud you could always use this 'reason' as an excuse?  HTH 

[Emilyoliver]

Thanks for that  .  My worry, though, isn't about being able to say no, and while he has no endorsements, he is my dog, and if I didn't want him used I'd just say so.  However, if he were to turn out to be an 'above average'/ 'quality' dog then would it not be a good thing to use him to hopefully produce more quality dogs (especially with COI being highlighted of late)?  Perhaps I might like one of his puppies from the right bitch.  But Nicola's question of 'is it worth changing the dog for' is the crux for me.  And really, I still don't know.  I love my dogs exactly as they are and am not sure the risk of one of them changing as a result of a decision I have made on their behalf, is worth the potential repurcussions for either them or my other dogs.

[Jane S]

We have only one dog who is possibly at stud now (and then only in a very limited way even though he is in our opinion the best boy we have bred) and he will probably be our last - he has been used once so far and to date he doesn't seem to have changed and is still quite submissive to other males but we know this could alter with age. We once had to rehome a boy who after being used at stud would no longer tolerate living with his Dad (our other boy at the time) even though they had once been very good pals - it got to the stage where they had to be kept apart all the time and there was constant tension - something I never want to go through again. Breeders with kennels and larger numbers of dogs can of course manage the situation more easily than someone with a normal home set up for their dogs like we have so it's definitely something you need to be very cautious about if you own more than one entire male and one or both is used at stud.

[Nicola]

With some dogs once they've had a taste of it that's it, they will keep actively looking for it and with others it takes a bit longer. Others aren't interested at all, we've had to castrate a few potential stud dogs and put them into training as they have insufficient sexual drive to actually do the deed. I found the temperament change with Ro happened pretty quickly, he developed a noticeable 'I'm the man' attitude with other male dogs almost immediately after his first use and I've seen that with a lot of our studs. I often get asked for use of Ro by various people, we go to a few different shoots etc. and he's been to a couple of training days with Caoimhe's trainer and others who thinks he's a great working dog (which he is), but I usually find a polite no, he's not available, is sufficient. The indoor leg cocking can be more difficult than you might think to get them out of if they start, we've struggled with this with some of our stud dogs and we're not exactly short of dog trainers here It's one thing I'm very glad Ro never started doing. There's no shortage of established, good quality dogs out there and in as popular a breed as Cockers there are no lines that are going to die out if one dog doesn't get used.  

It's an interesting point about wanting a pup from the dog, much as I do love all Ro's litters out of all of them there have been maybe only two or three dogs that I've felt that I might want to have. Don't get me wrong they're all fantastic but none of them are him - seeing so many of them has actually really driven that home to me. Ro is such an exceptional dog and I have such a strong bond and connection with him that I don't think I will ever have with another dog and in a way them being his offspring makes it harder because they have a lot of similarities to him but they're not him so I almost compare them a bit unfairly to him, if that makes sense! It's like 'you're almost him, but not quite'. It was a bit of a surprise to me really but it's why I haven't actually yet kept one of his pups, much as I do of course get attached to them all when I'm supervising the litters!

[Jane S]

The indoor leg cocking can be more difficult than you might think to get them out of if they start, we've struggled with this with some of our stud dogs and we're not exactly short of dog trainers here It's one thing I'm very glad Ro never started doing.

Yes we've been lucky in that respect - Jimmy would rather die than pee in the house although our young boy has pee-ed on the sofa when one of the girls was in season. He has only done that once thankfully but I know other owners who aren't so fortunate

[kaycee]

Hi, We had a dog which was used at stud a few times, unfortunately we tragically lost him a couple of months ago and he was the start of my breeding line. He was a real gent, he was gentle with the bitches never rushed himself, but the temptation at home with, at the time 3 bitches resulted to a mistake mating.My girlie was traumatised and had a litter , they were not related at all, but she had a bad time and had to be spayed. This made me realise what i was putting my dog through and all living indoors i would not seperate them, We had a lot of local bitches going past our garden frequently in season, he would scrabble over anything to follow them. One day he caught his scrotum badly and got an infection to cut a long story short we had him castrated. Im glad i did as it took all the pressure off of our daily lives, but when he mated a bitch, he would be quiet and tired for the rest of the day and wake up the next morning quite normal,it never changed his character at all!