Author Topic: Fear aggression in 2yr old, directed at kids  (Read 2267 times)

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Offline mike p

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Fear aggression in 2yr old, directed at kids
« on: May 31, 2016, 05:44:51 PM »
Hi everyone

I'd very much welcome some advice regarding our 2yo male golden cocker.  He's a family pet (kids are 10 & 11), show-type, intact, needy & attention seeking, affectionate, energetic, stubborn and very food-orientated.  Over the past 6 months or so there have been a small but increasing number of incidents where he has lunged, snarling, with apparent intent to bite, at other children (U10s) and occasionally dogs but has never drawn blood.  Scary though, because one day he might... he's immediately submissive when restrained and will be good as gold within 30secs.  He has never shown any aggression towards us or our kids, only to those outside the family unit and never towards other adults.  His lunges always occur indoors, often when he's approached by a child or when kids are playing boisterously.  Twice he's even had a go at our cleaner's teenage daughter.  He often gives little or no warning, although sometimes he will growl first which gives me a chance intervene.  However he'll still try to lunge even if I have hold of his collar.  Clearly encountering strange children in confined spaces sets him on edge, as kids can be unpredictable.

When out for a walk he will sometimes chase joggers barking furiously and jumping but not at every one, and always chases bicycles despite the fact that we're all regular cyclists!  I've had some success by keeping aware of who's around and priming him, which usually mitigates his reaction.  He is generally timid around other dogs, but very occasionally he will lunge in a similar way to that described above although a couple of times this has been induced by competition for treats/toys.

We think his behaviour may be primarily fear-based.  He is from an unusually small litter of 2 pups and was weaned very early by his mother, and while we were careful to properly socialise him I have a nagging suspicion that this is a contributing factor.  However he tends to target either the youngest child present or one that is nervous around animals, and I wonder if this might be some attempt to establish dominance.

We're not sure what to do, because we can't risk him potentially wounding a child. Muzzling a fearful dog seems counter-productive - it stops a potential bite in the short term, but does nothing to address the root cause.  I don't know if neutering is realistic option.  I understand that cockers as a breed have a bit of a rep. for this kind of thing so I'm hoping that we can find a workable solution to at least take the edge of his behaviour.  Many thanks for any advice you can offer, it will be much appreciated!

Offline elaine.e

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Re: Fear aggression in 2yr old, directed at kids
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2016, 07:26:20 PM »
Hello and welcome to COL :D

Sorry to read about your problems with your Cocker, and thanks for providing so much information about what triggers his aggression. None of us on here are behaviourists, and even with lots of detail being given it's impossible to give definitive answers on a forum. But there are plenty of us who have personal experience of dogs with problem behaviours and it may help to share those and the solutions we've found.

To me it sounds like your dog is fearful in certain situations. One of my current two Cockers is unable to cope in some situations since an incident when he was a puppy. A lot of his fears are around other dogs more than people, but his reactions are similar to those you've described. He will bark, lunge and snarl if he finds himself in a situation he can't handle and where his fear levels have rocketed sky high. He doesn't set out to be aggressive, but can't help his reactions when he's got to the point of being unable to remain calm.

We're a quiet 2 adult household and have lots of empty New Forest spaces to walk in. So we've opted to manage situations for him by not putting him in them in the first place where possible, but also by teaching him to stay calm. I understand that in a household with children and visitors, and perhaps busier places for walking, that it probably isn't as simple for you.

Our reactive Cocker, Louis, is almost 7 years old and is still entire. We've considered having him neutered but it's recognised that fearful dogs may become even more fearful once neutered. So on balance we've decided to leave him entire. He's not interested in the ladies and doesn't scent mark indoors or show any other undesirable behaviours that neutering may stop. Is it the right decision? I suppose we'll never know!

At home he's a bit nervous and barky around visitors, so we shut both dogs behind a babygate until visitors have settled in and then (depending on the visitors) let the dogs meet them. If Louis chooses to stay away from them and relax elsewhere that's fine. I'd never push him into meeting people or put him in a situation where he couldn't get out of a room with visitors in it because that would make him fearful. It's finding that mix of giving him the choice to say hello if he wants but at the same time never putting him in a situation that might trigger his fears.

On walks, we manage things carefully for him and try to avoid large groups of people, noisy children running about, groups of dogs, groups of cyclists etc. We know the distance at which he feels safe and we praise and reward when he shows calm behaviours such as looking and not reacting. It teaches him that he can stay calm and that nice things happen when he does. He's gradually become able to cope better because he's learned that he can stay calm even when the things that trigger his fears come quite close. So we have to manage his walks less than we used to.

We have setbacks and bad days sometimes, but if he reacts I've learned that I have to stay calm for his sake. So I apologise to whoever he's growled and lunged towards , explaining briefly that he's fearful, and walk him away calmly. He's worse on lead but of course I have to put him on lead sometimes if there's a situation we can't avoid. I'm very conscious that changes to legislation a couple of years ago mean that our dogs can be in trouble if their behaviour makes anyone feel threatened. So even a bark and a lunge while on lead would be investigated if reported, let alone chasing or worse.

I suggest that you seek advice from a professionally qualified behaviourist who will come to your home to meet your dog and all of you, and observe him at home and outdoors in order to assess the problem and help you find a way forward. A good place to start is the Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT) because they only use positive training methods. If you're on Facebook there's a group called Dog Training Advice & Support that you can join. They should be able to help you find a behaviourist in your local area.

Offline MIN

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Re: Fear aggression in 2yr old, directed at kids
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2016, 09:14:10 PM »
nothing to offer I am afraid, but hope you can get him sorted
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Offline lescef

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Re: Fear aggression in 2yr old, directed at kids
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2016, 10:33:58 PM »
Hi. I would agree with what Elaine has said and find a positive behaviourist who can help put  measures in place to help you as you have a number of issues going on.
I have Maddie who is fear aggressive towards other dogs and Bramble who doesn't like children and also resource guards me and food. We manage their behaviour as best we can, distracting and rewarding calm behaviour.
I have found that it is important to remain calm, difficult when your dog is growling at a child, but you have to behave as if nothing awful is happening. They pick up your anxiety so quickly.
Joggers and cyclists are probably one of the easiest problems to solve using counter conditioning. Children will be more difficult.  Bramble spends quite a lot time in her crate when we have our grandson as she will growl at him and guard me if I am close to him. We have used gates across doors to separate them, but I think she feels safer in her crate as she doesn't have to constantly be alert.

It is also important that dogs don't practice the 'bad' behaviour as it becomes ingrained and more difficult to change, so distraction is the key.
 Good luck!
Lesley, Maddie and Bramble

Offline PennyB

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Re: Fear aggression in 2yr old, directed at kids
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2016, 01:05:32 AM »
I agree you need someone on the ground as it were to deal with this with you as it could be more complicated than you or us can deal with here

I have similar problems with my sprocker boy (he's fine with cyclists and joggers though) - I am slowly working with him and will hopefully enrol him on the prickly pooches course when its available next locally. In his case it was poor socialising, as he was quite ill as a pup, plus his mum was fearful I believe plus when my older cocker Wilf died recently he got worse. Most of Bosley's is fear based.  If in doubt I use my gundog whistle as often now I can read the signs before stuff happens and he knows its the signal to come and sit by me. But as with everything what I do may not work for everyone.
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Offline mike p

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Re: Fear aggression in 2yr old, directed at kids
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2016, 05:44:57 PM »
Thanks for your replies! Further enquiries lead us to think that he may be "over loved", esp. by the kids.  While he doesn't show aggression to our kids and is prepared to tolerate hugs etc from them, it's possible that he baulks at the prospect of strangers treating him that way.  There's probably more to it that that, but we have the name of a local trainer so will see what they have to say!

Offline bizzylizzy

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Re: Fear aggression in 2yr old, directed at kids
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2016, 07:04:10 PM »
Great! Best of luck - let us know how you get on!

Offline archieb

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Re: Fear aggression in 2yr old, directed at kids
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2016, 08:16:48 PM »
I am currently going through the same and have a behavourist coming next week. It is very difficult as it is not towards everyone - he is worse with people coming into my house as I live on my own but I took him to my friends house and he was fine. I do have to watch him up the park with kids and joggers as he will bark quite aggressively at them again though only some - I have been working on keeping him calm and was advised by my vet to use Zyklene daily. He was last of the litter and I got him at 5 months so not sure what happened in that time previous which like you I think is contributing. I will post how I get on with the behaviourist.

Offline hoover

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Re: Fear aggression in 2yr old, directed at kids
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2016, 03:02:48 PM »
If you were thinking about neutering but weren't sure then you can have an implant fitted, supreloin (chemical castration) and see how you get on.  If behaviour is worse I believe the implant can be removed and in any event it only works for a few months.  Speak to your behaviourist and vet if they think that could be an option.  If things do get better you could probably feel more confident about surgical castration. He might target the youngest child present as he thinks them the most unpredictable and the most nervous because they give out vibes too. 

We are getting Ollie neutered soon and he has slight issues similar to yours (which are more outweighed by the problematic behaviours caused by hormones - sexually fixated on neutered males as well as females in season and redirected aggression when frustrated in this respect)  so I will post back on here to let you know how he gets on after the op.  I must admit we are kind of hoping that his reactivity & impulse control improves and that his threshold for reacting is higher after neutering.  At the moment he can trigger very quickly to situations.  We are under no illusions that this may not be the case however.

Offline archieb

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Re: Fear aggression in 2yr old, directed at kids
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2016, 08:06:49 PM »
One of the things my behaviourist did mention was that Archie was more over protective that fear aggressive as I have probably over loved him as well so now working on a bit of distance and not quite so many cuddles

Offline phoenix

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Re: Fear aggression in 2yr old, directed at kids
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2016, 11:42:57 PM »
As a former owner of a cocker who had personal space issues, I really understand your predicament.   Bob was great with dogs, but could not cope with people who invaded his privacy.   I taught my family, all older than yours, to respect him. Hardest was my husband , who had the caveman attitude,  which would be disastrous.  My mantra when out,  with other people nearby who wanted fuss him was......  Don't touch him, don't look him in the eye!
My vet at the time , didn't want to neuter him, so he stayed intact. He was great with confident , dog savvy people like groomers and vets. He just didn't trust unpredictable people.
I would recommend having a baby gate to separate him until lively situations are over, and to have strict rules for humans.
I have to emphasise that some Cockers, like my Bob,  are incredibly sensitive.  They pick up  so many signals.   Their senses of smell and hearing are amazing, so i think they that it all gets too much for them.   Confusion = antisocial behaviour.
RIP Marti  the EPI springer age 12,  and beloved black cocker Bobby, 8 yrs old, too soon, from PLN.
Now owned by TInker, tiny hairy grey poodle/terrier rescue from Greece and Jack, local rescue,   scruffy ginger terrier mutt.