Unruly Pup HELP!!

[mentalcat]

Hello all,

If you're finding that once the kong is empty, he loses interest (smart pup), you could try smearing some marmite, or squeezy cheese on the inside and then putting the treats in.

I would also try to limit playing tuggy games at the moment - this can overstimulate some puppies, and also make their teeth very sore.

Don't worry, he'll get over it - and you WILL survive

Ali

[PennyB]

I would also try to limit playing tuggy games at the moment - this can overstimulate some puppies

Yes I had to stop tug games completely for a while with Ruby for precisely this reason as she became quite aggressive while playing them --- now she's an adult I play tug games and its never a problem

[Janice-Dylan]

i got the crate after receiving advice to get one for time out. unless it is locked, there would be no time out as he wouldnt stay in it. there is no need to have it locked at any other time as he has run of the kitchen and only chews people, not furniture. after 6 weeks of using it- he  still goes in it and loves it as his haven. he is clever enough to know that it gets locked when he's misbehaved. Simple - door closed-naughty. same effect as putting him out of the room- he is excluded.  this has had no effect on him loving it to sleep in etc. i think this is far better than having him locked in it all day.i don't see how using it this way is any different from thise who keep them locked in it all day- hey don'y assciate it as punishment.

[Janice-Dylan]

ps, re previous post. I'm quite concerned about this as I got the crate in the first place against my better judgement.I'm confused now.If I'm at home all day andI have a crate so that he can have time-out when he needs it, how should it be used? Surely I shouldnt lock the door when I'm at home with him for no reason ? I can't now think why it was recommended for time out if i don't use it the way i described. before we got the crate,i would put him in the porch for time out but he was eating the carpet in frustration. Believe me if you saw him in mid-frenzy, you'd know how much he needs time out. Are you saying that cages are only ok if he's locked in at other times too?

[PennyB]

ps, re previous post. I'm quite concerned about this as I got the crate in the first place against my better judgement.I'm confused now.If I'm at home all day andI have a crate so that he can have time-out when he needs it, how should it be used? Surely I shouldnt lock the door when I'm at home with him for no reason ? I can't now think why it was recommended for time out if i don't use it the way i described. before we got the crate,i would put him in the porch for time out but he was eating the carpet in frustration. Believe me if you saw him in mid-frenzy, you'd know how much he needs time out. Are you saying that cages are only ok if he's locked in at other times too?

When I mean 'timeouts' I meant the sort where the pup is no longer responding to 'no', or ouch or other things aren't working and its just a way of removing them from the room for a few seconds/minute to stop the sort of behaviour you talk about (I found that while ouch and 'no' and distraction generally worked during the day the frenzied excited behaviour where you continually get nipped because they're overexcited was dealt with best by quietly placing them out the room I was in for a few seconds then allowing them back in and if they contiune then do the same again). What I meant was not to may be put them in the crate and lock them up as a consequence of this behaviour, as they may begin to see it as punishment ---  at the point they stop showing the unwanted behviour then put them in the crate so it doesn't continue.

Simple - door closed-naughty. same effect as putting him out of the room- he is excluded

By doing this it reinforces the crate as a punishment. I think the crossed wires are because others suggested using a crate to stop him chewing per se as they thought that was the problem. Crates are very useful to help stop chewing if you're not in the room, they are useful to help with housetraining and just generally (these are all uses designed to stop unwanted behaviour not lock them up for it) and yes the door can be locked especially if they are for preventing him from getting out.

People weren't suggesting they locked the pups in all day but they used them throughout the day for all sorts of reasons  --- ie for a few minutes here and there. I used it 1st to make sure Ruby didn't hurt herself when I was out the room as my house is openplan (I work from home so it wasn't for long), then with Wilf to give Ruby a break from him annoying her, have also used mine when either have had ops, every time a foster dog comes in the house the crate is used for the new dog especially overnight when I can't supervise them.

I found my pups (my own cockers and foster pups) would be at their most manic at certain times of the day and learnt to pre-empt that by may be settling them with a chew or kong in the crate, and the rest of the time I dealt with the biting by using 'ouch' (very loudly/exaggerated way) or putting something in their mouth. Obviously if I'd misjudged when the manic time began and these didn't work then I'd do very short timeouts (a few seconds the back in the room and so on). Distraction also helps by engaging them in other activities.

If you use timeout outside the room is there any where else you can put him (it only has to be a very short period anyway)

We've all been there to varying degrees --- Ruby was your preverbial snapping crocodile, Wilf less so, and some of the foster pups better or a lot worse. It gets better but only with patience and acting calmy and confidently

[Janice-Dylan]

Locking him in the crate for bad behaviour was the one and only reason we decided to buy one. As there is someone at home all day, there is no need to use it for anything else. We were advised (on here I think) to make sure he got used to the crate as a haven by putting his favourite things in it, food etc letting him sleep there for a while before using it for time out. We did all of this first, therefore he still loves his crate even though he has timeout in there.Does this mean then that no-one should be using the crate to lock them up when "no" walk away etc hasn't worked? How can it be time out if it isn't locked, he'd just walk back out.I still can't see how my use of the crate is wrong. The only difference with us is that he isn't locked in it when we're out!. Reading this back, it sounds like I'm being stroppy, but honest, I don't mean to be, I really need to understand this. Maybe the difference is the "time-out" I do it exactly as you described, when all other means of stopping him biting everyone has failed. He's only in for a minute, as soon as he whimpers, he's out. Sometimes he doesnt whimper, he just goes to sleep cos he's had enough. Honest, he goes to bed in his crate himself when he's tired or the house is too hectic, it's still his haven.

[Anita breathes Cockers]

If your baby is crying to come out of crate, try 'good association' at first, like feeding him in there.  Put it in the room where you are so he can see you and carry on as normal.  Other times, put him in it, hide and wait for that moment when there is a break in the cry, then let him out.  His reward for being quiet is you giving attention.  Build this up bit by bit until he will happily stay in it for an hour with a kong/chew.
At night he cannot hurt himself nor destry your house and does wonders with house training.
Have trained many puppies this way and makes ownership heaven instead of hell.  Everyone is helpful on here and are right, it won't last forever.
Try to be calm around him and he will take the lead from his 'pack leader', just as him mum will have taught him.  Hyper games will make your prob worse.  He will settle, be strong

[Cob-Web]

I can only speak for myself - but I bought a crate so that when I wasn't around to supervise Molo (showering, shopping, cooking etc) - I could provide him with a safe place to be..........pups can get into trouble so fast, even when you are in the same room as them  A chewed cable, or mistakenly left item could lead to a painful and panicked trip to the vet or worse

Because I wanted to ensure that he settled in there, I did not use it as his "time out" space........I did not want him to associate the crate with the "end of something fun", but rather I wanted to crate to be considered a space that was enjoyable, too  I never "put" him in - I threw a tasty treat in for him to enjoy once he walked in of his own accord. I also used it as a house training aid - he cried to go out when he needed to wee/poo at night rather than soil his crate, so I got up and went and let him out 

We did use time-out - but I would leave the room, leaving Molo alone for a few seconds - closing the baby-gate if necessary to prevent him following me. This prevented any confrontation as I tried to physically move Molo in some way.
I never returned to him if he whimpered or whined - I tried to return before it got to that stage (20 or 30 seconds at most), and if he did get unsettled and begin to bark/yap, then I would wait for a break (for breath, sometimes) to go to him, so that he knew I would return once he was quiet. 

[Janice-Dylan]

thank you all but if he's still quite happy to use the crate as his haven, even when it is also being used for time out, i really don't see the point to going back to sticking him in the porch,or getting the whole family to leave the room every time he goes off on one. I understand the need for positive association, as I said, if he responds to "leave it" when he goes to bite, he gets a treat or a fuss. If he doesn't, he goes in the crate. Kids can be sent to their room for punishment and also use it as their haven. I don't think training a very aggressive puppy can rely on positive association training only-safety for the kids has to come in to this and puppies also  have to learn that there are consequences to ignoring commands and biting someone. If they don't learn this now as puppies, it will be too late later on. If a puppy has to spend a lot of time locked in the crate for other reasons, eg owners out to work and worried about chewing then obviously using it my way would not work. I really think there is more than one way to use the crate. My way is working for me insofar as I can calm Dylan down in it while he still loves it as his bed. I don't have to worry about him chewing anything, he just sleeps in his crate if we're out -door open. Everyone's circumstances are different and we shouldn't generalise. Maybe it would work for Bailey if he doesnt need to be locked in during the day.

[Cob-Web]

I don't have to worry about him chewing anything, he just sleeps in his crate if we're out -door open.

......for now  ; the wonderful thing about dogs is that they have "free will" and personality and he may well decide one day to rip all the lino up, chew a chairleg or dig a hole in the wall, and those are the more harmless things he can do    Especially if he has a lot of energy, it is likely that he will, one day 
Before anyone leaves a pup alone in a room unsupervised, it is always recommended that a check of the room is carried out to ensure there are no stray items that could harm him (not only cables, but foodstuffs, household cleaners, and things like cd's which can be chewed into sharp shards  ).

Molo was never a big chewer; partly because we used a crate/pen to prevent him learning this behaviour as a pup - but despite that, one day last year I shut him in the kitchen while I bathed lil'bit and when I came back downstairs he had destroyed the kitchen rug  I'm sure that he'd not even noticed it up until then......I think he was reminding me that he had opinions too 

[Janice-Dylan]

There's nothing in the kitchen he can hurt himself on/destroy, of course I would check this. I wonder how they survived before cages?!

[Cob-Web]

There's nothing in the kitchen he can hurt himself on/destroy, of course I would check this. I wonder how they survived before cages?!

Many puppies ended up stuck in a shed or a backyard - or disappeared overnight

Of course, the lack of mobile phone chargers, remote controls, gameboys, i-pods etc also helped 

Edited to add: I think there were far more realistic expectations of dog/puppies too - many children who were nipped by their family dog when I was a child were given a clip round the ear and asked what they had done to annoy it; the dog wasn't considered to blame