Author Topic: Arghh! at my wits end  (Read 3932 times)

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Offline tanvir

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Arghh! at my wits end
« on: July 06, 2008, 12:40:49 PM »
Hi everybody     :blink:
 i hope you can help
I bought a blue roan male cocker spaniel a few weeks ago after planning to get a dog for years and to be honest i spend alot of time in tears over him!
he's now 10 weeks old and very aggressive and quite a handful. I've got the gwen bailey book and we are following that the best that we can but he's just too much of a handful, he doesn't respond to withdrawal of attention, or distractions or any of the other things that she suggests to do in the book. I've read alot on the internet and to be honest i am more confused than i was to begin with.
He doesn't like being touched-this always leads to hard biting. We can't even stroke him affectionately. he doesn't seem to know how to interact with any human without resorting to aggression, growling, biting. Even if he is being ignored he will come up to you and bite you. he has drawn blood on numeroous occasion. Have i bought an aggressive dog? i'm a first time owner and i don't think that i can handle an aggressive puppy  :'(
we have tried our best to socialise him, and he has met lots of people but doesn't usually bite them as he is scared. i hate to think what he will be like when he is big enough to cause some damage, we've waited so long for a pup and now i'm scared of him  :embarassed:
any advise would be greatly appreciated

Offline *Jay*

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Re: Arghh! at my wits end
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2008, 12:46:39 PM »
Sounds just like my Vegas when he was a pup - it was an absolutely horrific experience and I too spent a lot of time in tears over him. It took us a while but what worked for us were consistent time-outs and a change in diet (he was on ped chum but it obv didn't agree with him).  To see him now, you wouldn't know it was the same dog - he absolutely adores people and we take him to retirement homes as an unofficial PAT dog.
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Offline Rats and Dogs

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Re: Arghh! at my wits end
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2008, 12:52:53 PM »
I've never had a pup, but looked after pups in a rescue centre, we always advised new owners to take their pup to a training class as early as possible, but if you find that doesn't halp you could maybe see a behaviourist to find out why he is being aggressive.
Fiona, Dougie & Tia x
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Offline Ben's mum

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Re: Arghh! at my wits end
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2008, 01:01:23 PM »
Hi sorry you are finding it hard work when it shoud be a great time

Ben was a nightmare of a pup and like you I spent ages in tears because I thought he was suffering from aggression or rage and tbh I didn't enjoy him as a  pup and feel i missed out.

There are lots of really knowledgable people on here and some really good discussions if you look at other threads about how to cope with a boistrous cocker pup, so I am sure you will get some sensible and helpful advice soon.

hope you soon start to have fun together and your  >:D turns into a  :angel:

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Offline happydog

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Re: Arghh! at my wits end
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2008, 01:07:26 PM »
Hi and welcome to COL  :blink:. you will get some good advice and support here, so try and chill out a little. You sound like a typical first time owner of a cocker pup to be honest. plenty of us have been in the same boat as you, so fear not.


I
Have i bought an aggressive dog? i'm a first time owner and i don't think that i can handle an aggressive puppy  :'(

I think it is highly unlikely. Did you buy him from a reputable breeder?
Sorry I  have no time to answer in detail atm, but others will be along soon I am sure.
I've read alot on the internet and to be honest i am more confused than i was to begin with.
I am not at all suprised, there is a lot of misinformation out there. Stick with COL and you won't regret it  ;).
happydog

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Offline Karma

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Re: Arghh! at my wits end
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2008, 01:09:43 PM »
Firstly - you do not have an aggressive puppy.  It is completely normal for puppies to be like little pihranas - some are worse than others, but they all do it.  And it does not mean you are going to have an aggressive adult dog.

How long have you had him?  You say a few weeks ago - that implies you may have got him before he was 8 weeks old.  This isn't recommended, as up till this age, they are still learning form their littermates - this can make teaching bite inhibition more difficult, but not impossible.

You really need consistency to teach your pup how to interact with people - it is not something they inherrently know, but rather something they rely on you to teach them.  Our pup is now 10 months old, and we were first time puppy owners when we got her - the learning curve is very very steep, but you do get there - honestly.

I'll summarise what we eventually found worked well with Honey - others find slightly different approaches worked for them - the key is deciding what you will do and sticking to it.

Firstly - We started with clicker training from day 1 - this might not sound relevent to a biting problem, but it helped acheive a good relationship, and made Honey think (thus tiring her out mentally).  It also meant we quickly had a reasonably reliable "Sit" command - it is more difficult to hang off someone's sleeves (or skin) if your bum in on the floor!!  :005:

Secondly - We had lots of toys - but also lots of cardboard strewn around.  This meant there was plenty of things for her to "attack".  Puppies play and explore by using their teeth, and this need to happen so that they can develop into well adjusted adult dogs.  

Thirdly - Whenever she made contact with us (with her teeth) we let out a yelp (similar to what she would do if we trod on her tail!!) and stopped what we were doing very briefly.  If it occured again we again gave the yelp and walked away from her (when older we would shut a door between us to reinforce this).  We only ignored her for a few seconds, then went back as is nothing had happened.  This, to us, mimicked what her littermates would do if she had overstepped the mark with them.  It was very tiring, and I, spent a lot of time in tears, wondering if we could ever get through it.

Fourthly - we did play lots of tug games with her - some people disagree with tug games, but Honey loved them (and still does).  She has a peice of rope which was the main tug toy - and she would growl and wrestle quite happily.  As she got older, we would get her to sit before playing, and then interrupt play with a few sits.  We are now at the point where she can be playing tug, shaking away and I say "Give" and she will stop and drop the toy.  She will then sit and wait until she is given permission to play again!!!  :D

I do recall that at about 10 weeks, Honey really didn't like being stroked - it's not something that is natural for dogs to accept.  Start when your pup is relaxed, and just stroke once, then give a treat reward - he will soon learn that human contact is a good thing!!  ;) Once he is happy with a small stroke, you can build it up.  But, to be honest, it is only in the last couple of months that Honey has really started to enjoy being fussed.

I hope this helps you to beleive that you have not bought a monster - just a pup.  I know it is hard, but please try not to be scared of him - he will pick up on this and become more unsettled as a result.  A pup needs to know it is safe and protected.  It needs consistent boundaries for behaviour.  It needs regular training, play and socialisation.  It needs to learn how to use its teeth.  It will take a vast amount of patience, and there will be times when you feel you are at the end of your tether - but it does get better and at the end of it all you will have a dog you are proud of and who adores you!!  :D
Remembering Honey. Aug 2007-July 2020

Offline Cob-Web

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Re: Arghh! at my wits end
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2008, 03:31:54 PM »
I can't add to the advice you have been given here (and on the other forum  ;)) and it does sound as if you are progressing really well; setting rules for all the family to follow and working out what triggers over-excited behaviour is a really good start and things like this will mean that your puppy will learn the rules (gradually) and won't be out of control or aggressive as an adult  ;)

I am sure that the breeder of your puppy will be only too happy to help, too...and don't despair, it does get better, honest  ;)
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Offline PennyB

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Re: Arghh! at my wits end
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2008, 04:00:54 PM »
all pups can be hard work in one way or another --- biting is one of them, some do this more forcefully than others, and its a necessary evil as this is also how a pup learns bite inhibition as well

Pinned at the top of this board is this thread which is useful

http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=2016.0

It will get better but you have to be calm and patient (if you're having a bad day then a biting puppy will only add to this so stop and think and if you're under stress then may be give the pup something to do for 10 min or more in the crate or behind a barrier)

I recently fostered a very confident cocker pup who was a little demon --- but in some instances there was an easier way to do things and less of a struggle. He would bite my hands to shreds if I tried to put his harness on and the best thing that worked there was I 1st got him to sit then when he sat down I gave him a gravy bone (as he was also calm) and so while he was concentrating on that I put part fo the harness on then got him to sit again and gave him another treat so I could finish off putting the harness on --- job done without a scratch or overexcited puppy (and faster as I was less stressed doing it). Eons ago a dog trainer taught me if some things like this were hard work, as the puppy kept wriggling and biting and getter more excited, that I was to do a little bit at a time and reward for allowing to do that little bit so basically each procedure would be broken down into bits and rewarded as such unitl eventually you only neded a treat for completing the whole thing in one go and eventually they didn't get a treat at all.


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Offline MaisieMay

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Re: Arghh! at my wits end
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2008, 04:39:19 PM »
 :-*

Hi we are first time puppy owners (although always grew up with dogs when lived with parents).  I have had some tears also thinking have we got the naughiest puppy ever.  This site has been a god send as i know a lot of us puppy owners are in the same boat.  Puppies are just babies and need us mammy and daddies to guide them.  I am hoping the good times are going to win over the stressful times! 

I have signed my Maisie up for obiedence classes from August so I am hoping things can only get better.  Good luck and don't give up x

Offline tanvir

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Re: Arghh! at my wits end
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2008, 04:51:50 PM »
thanks for all the great advise and reassurance  :D
theres alot of stuff that has been suggested that i will try out and hopefully i should see a difference soon, it really is one step forward and two steps back at the moment and its good to know that not everybodies puppy experience is how they had imagined it to be  :P
 i caught myself shouting at him this morning because he had taken a chunk of skin off the back of my leg  >:D i really don't want to be the kind of owner that spends her time shouting at her puppy because it doesn't work and probably spoils the relationship that you have with your pup in the long term
its good to get advise from other cocker owners. i was reading a piece on dogs written by a vet, and in it she said that in 10 years of practice, the worst experience that she had ever had with any dog was with a golden cocker, and that set me off in a panic about the breed  :o
...but i guess it must have been a cocker with rage syndrome
again, thanks for all the advise and reassurance, as i said, i'm a first time dog owner and i don't even know anyone with a dog, all my friends, neighbors and relatives don't seem to like dogs enough to keep one (which is even more reason for me to make sure that my pup grows up into a lovely dog..don't want to scare everyone away! :005:)  advise on forums like this is a saving grace! books can only tell you so much, personal first hand experience is so much better  :blink:



Offline johndoran

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Re: Arghh! at my wits end
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2008, 05:16:03 PM »
Please don't give up things will get better,we thought we had got the puppy from hell 20 months ago when we got bonnie but given time we realised thats just what she was, a puppy.she has turned into the friendliest little dog you could wish for,loves everybody and everything, still has her naughty moments but thats when she  is most adorable.Go to puppy classes if you can they are brilliant.once the puppy teeth go the biting will stop they just have to grow up.this forum is brilliant you think you are the only ones with problems then realise that pretty well everyone else has had the same problems
Bonnie Boo -A heartbeat at my feet

Offline bluegirl

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Re: Arghh! at my wits end
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2008, 05:42:50 PM »
I can't add to whats been said, pups do bite some more than others as has been said but they are just play fighting. Offer alternative distractions to your ankles such as a ball or soft tug toy and play that instead.  What area you are in because their may be an experienced COLer who lives near you who could support you in person or maybe there's a COL meeting in your area you could go to the meet cocker people. Everyones very helpful on here and would only wish to help you work through this teething phase.

Puppy are cute but they can also be a handful especially to first timers.
Karen, Penny, Logan, Phoebe and Bronte.


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Offline Dizzy247

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Re: Arghh! at my wits end
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2008, 06:24:35 PM »
Hi.. I too have been at my wit's end and posted threads on here asking if my pup was agressive.
I thought i'd done everthing the correct way..puppy training, socialising, lots of different interactions however nothing seemed to calm pup down. We tried a lot of the things karma posted. The thing that works best for us, even today is putting him in time out in the kitchen with the door shut for 3/4 mins then opening the door  and letting him out - we do not speak to him until he does something good or calm.

I too got to the point where I was becoming wary of him, now im at the piont where if I pick him up he really growls and bears his teeth I tell him calmly  "ha  you dont frighten me" and tickle his belly, which he loves, then put him down again.

About a month ago he started to really calm down. Today I think we are going through phase 2.... biting again, but this time he is loosing all his moulers and fangs so I put the biting down to his teeth irritating him and his gums bleeding and also he is just about to touch six months, which I have been told are the terrible teens.

Hang in there im sure it will get alot better (I keep telling myself this too  :005:)
Donna, Spence & Alfie x



Offline noisypup

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Re: Arghh! at my wits end
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2008, 07:41:13 PM »
Hi there,

My pup is 13 weeks old today and I have posted on here a few times as I was in exactly the same situation as you, Ally was in her cage or the kitchen on her own 80% of the time and I was held hostage in my own lounge for fear of being bitten, barked at, growled at and my clothes torn. I was living with a devil in the house and I hated it too!

But, I must say, I persevered and in the last week or so she has really calmed down, we have learnt to stop the biting a lot moire than we did by ALWAYS having treats or cooked sausage bits all over the house (my house did smell like a pet store at one point and my investments in glade plug ins has doubled!) but, each time she goes for one of us know, we say 'no' firmly then say 'whats this?' to take her mind instantly off the biting and to thinking we have a treat for her...as soon as she releases my thigh and calms down, we say sit then give her a treat/sausage/chicken piece etc and she will then sit there for 5/10 mins being good - this is enough for us to divert the attention away from our flesh and to get out of the kitchen to give her time out...we then go back in 5 mins later and hope she has clamed down, if not we leave again...

This really does take a lot of time and effort and I posted on here 3 weeks ago at my wits end too...I was at the point where I asked myself what on earth we had done by buying her as she was making me so down and miserable all the time, but there seemed to be an overnight change in her recently (ok, I admit, she is still a handful!) but I can now sit with her in the kitchen and play nicely for 20 mins or take her to the park and we dont have any biting at all - she is also a lot more loving and affectionate now and we have regular cuddles again...so I am SO glad I stuck it out!!

If it helps - Ally still play bites when we put her lead on, towel dry her, groom her etc - but we have learnt how to be sneaky and it is amazing what you can get done by hovering a piece of sausage in front of her nose....we have sussed out how she works I guess - but it took me about 5 weeks to do this so def stick with it!!

I also had a trainer come to my house for 1.5 hours (£30 and a good investment!) who showed me other ways to deal with her and her behaviour and made me realise she is only playing and not having cocker rage or being aggressive?

I hope this helps..??

Kit xx x

Offline merry

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Re: Arghh! at my wits end
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2008, 07:55:11 PM »
We've had the same problems with Merry, but he is nearly two now and he's great fun, most of the time.  I'm sure things will improve when you can get him out and about a bit.  Merry does occasionally "bite" at our hands, which we usually misinterpret.  Unfortunately, he was doing this to me the other day and I thought he was just being naughty, but then he was sick shortly afterwards and I now think he was trying to grab my hand to let him outside. (guilt-city on my part)  Best of luck though!