late seasons/missed seasons?

[HeatherFeather]

I have some queries regarding the timing of a bitch's cycle.

English cockers are very rare here...there are only a few breeders (I think maybe 4 or 5) within nearly a thousand miles (without crossing the US/Canada border, which is complicated), and most have a wait list into 2010.  I'm currently sitting on a wait list for a pup from a bitch who was supposed to have gone into season in the last few weeks. 

But she hasn't gone into season yet.  The bitch is 4 yrs old and her owner says that she's always been very regular. She says that she is going to bring her around another bitch she knows who is in season in hopes that will help to move things along for her.

Is it possible that she might skip her season all together?  Or would it come regardless even if its a little late? What about having a season that doesn't display in the usual way....and gets missed by the breeder?

The breeder is experienced...but only breeds every 4 or 5 years.

I'm just not certain if or when the point in time is that I ask to be taken off the list and have my deposit refunded, and start looking elsewhere....perhaps for a pup that may need to be shipped, or start to consider crossing the border....or looking at another province.

Timing is really important to me as I would really like to have a pup for the fall. That would be a very good time for us, and I'd be able to sink nearly all my time and energy into the pup for a few months straight.  As a side note, a consideration to me is also that we are planning on driving clear across most of Canada (ON to BC) and back on a giant month long road trip vacation this August...so while not entirely ideal, the possibility of obtaining a pup in another province and bringing it home is there....but I guess I'd need to be networking with breeders in other provinces ASAP for that.

All your comments and advice appreciated!  Thanks in advance!!

[bluegirl]

Guess it's a worrying time. All I can say is that one of my girls cycles between 5 and 7 mths. She has always done this but when we decided to mate her, when she was 3.5yrs old she was a maiden bitch so hadn't really got any idea if her cycles would interfere with her fertility. True to form, I was expecting she would come in around 6 mths but she came in on 5mths and although everything was set up it still make everyone panic as she was a month early. I did a premate test and according to that she had ovulated, so that was reassuring. She was mated and she had 11 pups, so obviously despite her cycle fluctuation it didn't make any difference to her abilty to concieve.
If you feel confident with your breeder then you will have to trust them as you say pups are few and far between, but no one can ever say for certain that a mating is a good one as sometimes things don't go as planned, all I can try to reassure you with is that on the whole dogs are generally a fertile bunch with a good chance of concieving during a mating.

If your breeeder has male and female entire dogs together, even if things did not show the behaviour the dogs displayed would most probably be a give away that things were happening without outward signs been visible. My boy, although he's no chance always knows when a girlie's due for a season, I also see the girls licking and sniffing each other too. Mine have so far not brought each other in to season but this can happen.

I'm sure others with much more experience may be able to shed more light on the topic.

[Tasha]

of the three bitches I have with one she'll come in to season at the slightest whiff that another bitch she's in contact with is so its difficult to be accurate with her, with the second she has two seasons a year regardless of the other dogs and has a bit of a jekyll and hyde personality during it, the third you could set your watch by her three times a year without fail.  Breeding throws their seasons out, infection or internal problems will do the same and they can have a silent season which you can easily miss especially if the bitch is very clean and you don't have a male around to let you know.

Have you thought about importing??  The $ against the £ at the moment is very good you could introduce new bloodlines which is always a bonus and you'd have more choice here because of the number of litters produced.  If your looking for show lines there are people on this site that could advise you who are members of the club, same for working lines.  You don't have the same restrictions we do when importing a dog to the UK (we have to wait till the dog is approx 10 months) so you could easily have a pup much sooner if your breeders bitch is not available this time around.

[Ninasmum]

If the owner/breeder has advised you her girl is normally in season at regular 6 monthly intervals then the chances are that she is probably just a little late this time.     Its always the same, when you are on tenterhooks and waiting for some exciting news its seems to take forever to actually happen. 

One of my girls is very regular, but the first time we had a planned mating she was 4 weeks late.  Her daughter, who is 21 mths old, had her 1st season at 14 mths old but has not had one since!

I would try not to worry, as all good things are worth waiting for.    The strange thing i noticed from your post was the breeder had taken a deposit even before the puppies are born.    As far as i am aware this does not usually happen and many breeders would not even take a deposit until at least the first visit to see the puppies at 3 - 4 weeks of age.  Sadly anything can happen with breeding, the pups can be reabsorbed, the mating may not be successful, the pups may not survive or it is possible that the bitch you would like may not be in this litter.

Has the breeder been recommended to you?  Personally, i would consider importing, as some of the others have mentioned.

[HeatherFeather]

Tenterhooks is a good description of how I feel 

Taking a deposit (it was only $100) when you go on the wait list is normal around here, at least for uncommon breeds, or really desirable dogs.  I've never heard of it for a lab or golden retreiver, which are extremely common. The other EC breeders here are taking deposits for litters they're planning for over a year from now.   I guess for the breeder it gives reassurance that you're making a commitment to taking one of their pups, cause they're not common, so it might be tricky to find an appropriate home on short notice.  For me, its a commitment from the breeder to give me one of their pups and not sell it to someone who offers more $$....sigh.  I'm guessing that from an economics POV the breeder likely uses the deposit $$ to help pay for testing ect.  If for whatever reason, she can't give me a pup at the agreed upon time, then I can get refunded. 

So I'm not really worried about that per say....and no...I don't have a recommendation on the breeder...as there isn't anyone to make the recommendation really.  She is very active in showing and competitive obedience though, and both the dam and the sire seem to have respectable bloodlines, both holding champion titles in conformation and obedience, the highest hip scores and clear eyes for at least 5 generations back....and the mother of the sire actually holds the most CKC titles of any EC in Canada right now (her name is Willowcroft's Single Sensation).  I do really like her though.....and no she doesn't have both dogs at her home, just the bitch, the sire lives nearby, maybe 20-30 miles away from her.

I hadn't at all thought of importing.  Is that really a consideration?  I am looking for a show cocker, not a worker....I don't really want to get into conformation showing but would like to do pursue therapy dog training, maybe do some therapy work and perhaps explore the world of rally obedience, which is quite popular here.

It might just be really $$ to import....we're looking at $1100-1300 at the price of a dog, and I'm not sure how much a dog from the UK or US would be worth...and what the shipping would add to it....and whether or not my OH would agree to that(I think $1200 is his limit!).  Something really important to us also, is to meet the pups and the dam/sire, and to have an agreement that the breeder would take the pup back if something terrible were to happen that we couldn't look after it.  We had a really awful rescue dog experience past fall, where my son and OH both suffered some dog attacks....and have some scars....I'm just thankful that my OH has agreed to try another dog, but I don't think there is any way he would agree to it if he didn't think he could take the pup back if it 'turned' on him. (even though I personally don't think that would happen if we raise it from a pup, but that's where he's at.  If our next dog, ever badly bites him, I am sure I will never ever have another dog in my life)

On the other hand, we are really very close to the Toronto international airport....(well, what we call very close!  You guys would probably call that distance halfway across the country...but eh, we have a lot of space here!)

I also wonder about how stressful to the pup that is.  I know people do it....hm. But for the price, it might be better to seek one in the US....and to get us passports so that we can drive down and get it.  What put me off about the passports is that it takes 4-5 months just to get one and I think it costs at least $100 per person, maybe more...and they're only good for a year.....sheesh.  And at the same time, ECs aren't common in the US either.  We have so so so so many American cockers here, and many of them are high strung, snappy, temperamental.....but besides that, I just can't handle the look of their shoved in short noses, and the fact that they can't hold a decent sized stick (let alone a dead bird!) in their mouths, and have so so much coat...mmmm, no, not for me. sigh.

How much do you guys think importing would cost?  And what's the going price of a UK dog?  And can you tranquilize a pup that long?  Surely it must be a 12 hour or more flight.

[bluegirl]

Personally from what you have just written I'd stick with the plan for a "home grown" pup where the breeder is on hand.

[Tasha]

Have you checked Brookes Optigen results for PRA??? Is she a carrier?

Importing is definitely an option there are some fabulous breeders of show cockers here, you would certainly get more of a variety on colour and type and with a bit of research you could certainly bring home a beautiful dog.  Jane on here could give you some excellent advise you can also contact the UK club.  You've just missed Crufts which is a pity but there are other shows that you could attend.  I don't show and cockers aren't my main breed but it would definitely be something I would be considering.  My next Weimaraner will be an import from German or a German stud the costs for us are significant but its worth it.

Don't know what flights costs are like from Canada to the UK at the moment but sure you could get a late deal.  You would need to check what your import requirements are and take into account shipping fee (you'll need a flight crate but they aren't that expensive and can be used afterwards as an indoor kennel, a good breeder here will get your puppy used to it to reduce the stress of flying).

I have a friend who recently imported a dog from the states and they did most of their viewing via internet from the pups birth to about 7 weeks the breeder chose the pup for them based on requirement in this case working to the gun and showing, they only saw it in the flesh when it came to collection. 

[HeatherFeather]

mmm, bitch is "OFA Rating  Excellent, Optigen "A1" (by parentage), CERF  clear/normal" and stud is "OFA Rating Excellent, Optigen "A1", CERF clear/normal, FN  clear"

They're excellent dogs really....I really feel that everything is perfect with them except that the bitch hasn't come into heat.  I know that if she doesn't sometime soon, then her owner will not want to try again in the fall, when her next season is due.  She lives up north and the snow is a big hassle for her and she doesn't want pups in the winter.  So I think she'd wait and try again this time next year.  I know that a good dog is always worth the wait....but I am anxious to have a pup this year, as I really want to be WELL done with the puppy phase by the time we decide to add more children....and I'm 33 now, so doing the math.....

Having a dog shipped is really intimidating to me. I looked on the air transat and air Canada websites, and couldn't find any sort of prices on shipping at all.  And I kind of think at least one if not both of those airlines will crumble sometime soon. It doesn't much matter to me what the dog looks like anyways, its all about the personality to me.  I wouldn't get to pick my child's haircolour, so not choosing a dog's colour is about the same to me. I suppose really my best bet is for now to keep waiting.  If she doesn't come into season in the next month, then I need to really seriously look at my other options.

Heather=^..^=

[Sharon]

My Inca didn't have her first season until the day before her 2nd birthday, we decided we would like a litter from her later, her next season arrived 11 months 2 weeks later    we used the MateTel, had good ferning on day 9, so had her mated on days 9 & 11.  She whelped 63 days from the first mating with 9 good strong healthy pups, all survived and had lovely homes to go to.

It's now been 11 months 1 week since her last season and so far no sign of her next.  So I would worry about her fertility, I'm sure things will happen soon.

[LouiseH]

The cost of importing can be affected by several factors such as time of year, whether a shipping agent is used by the breeder, the country it is coming from and hence vaccination/microchip requirements, age of puppy and hence size of travel box. But most of all the difference in cost may well be the breeder. Some will charge extra for keeping the puppy longer, paying for vaccinations, worming, health certificates etc. Then there is the price of the puppy!

There is lots to organise, and for that reason I think the possibility of you importing a puppy from UK within a few months time is very slim, but there are a couple of larger kennels here that do it on a more regular basis so may be more 'in the know' with regards to travel requirements for different countries etc.

I have always used a shipping agent to ensure all the paperwork is in order to prevent the puppy/dog being delayed. This is worth it but things can still go wrong and it makes it very expensive. The most cost effective way of importing from the UK would be to travel to UK and take the puppy back as excess baggage. You can do this but they still travel in the hold, and it is much cheaper than just sending as cargo. I looked into this when researching taking my bitch abroad to be mated but due to the rules the UK have I cannot come back to the UK as excess baggage so it makes the whole trip way more expensive than I can afford just now and the stud dog owner has no facility to keep my bitch while she is mated.

The breeder will most likely do all the organisation if shipping direct as cargo, so all you have to do is pay the amount they quote. But if you wanted to save money and fly with the puppy I guess you would need to organise this yourself. I would contact some breeders in UK for an idea of price, although if you are inexperienced and not wanting to show they may be more reluctant to put a puppy through this.

How about contacting other breeders in your country and have a puppy shipped across? I think this goes on all the time...just another idea.

Hope this Helps 

[HeatherFeather]

Hmmm, I never thought of a pup travelling as excess baggage....I just happen to have a sister who is currently in Ghana, and is flying home sometime in the next month....she has to take a layover somewhere along the way I'm sure.....Although I think she stopped in Spain on the way...perhaps she could stop in the UK. Not much time to set something up though.  I also happen to have a close friend who is from Liverpool, and he goes home to visit family once every year or so......wheels are turning....

I would totally consider having a pup shipped from somewhere else in Canada or the US.  Though I'm not sure if the airfare would be any less than shipping from the UK....physically I think I'm closer to the UK or most of the US than I am to most of the rest of Canada.  And then there's that big long wait list problem...and i really hope I don't seem to selfish to say that I really would like a pup within the next 10 months, as much longer than that and I don't think it would work out as well for our family.