Author Topic: Very Poor Recall - and thats on a good day  (Read 3903 times)

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Offline bluegirl

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Re: Very Poor Recall - and thats on a good day
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2009, 12:27:45 PM »
I agree with Nicola, what suits one may not be right for another.
I have a barker who is pretty strong willed and I need all my wits about me when I'm out with her. I do alot of heel walking with her and recall sessions but I know that if she sees it first and moves before I know whats happening she'll go deaf and only come back when she's done the deed (barking in our case), but if I'm watching everything I can recall her to me and stop the process before it gets started, so for us this works.
I will also try to retrieve her if she will not come back as I believe if I give a command and she ignores it and I let it go I'm just reinforcing that it's ok with me for her to do her own thing , ignore me and come back when she wants.
Karen, Penny, Logan, Phoebe and Bronte.


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Offline Mittens

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Re: Very Poor Recall - and thats on a good day
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2009, 02:03:05 PM »
I could have run away screaming at the top of my lungs and juggling roast chickens and he wouldn't have stopped what he was doing to follow me.

I'm sorry - I nearly choked with laughing on my salad at my desk at this comment!! Thanks, you have made my dull working day!!  :005: This sooooooo applies to our new puppy!
Tracey, Eddie and Ruby

Offline mcphee

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Re: Very Poor Recall - and thats on a good day
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2009, 04:37:56 PM »
I only have experience with working dogs but basically if you recall you need to follow it up, every time, even if this means going after the dog yourself.
You should never ask twice because that way you're teaching the dog to ignore your first command and think that 'in a minute or not at all is good enough'.
Although its written for working dogs the Gundogs Grade 1 guide describes teaching recall amongst other things in detail and it's a really good book http://www.thegundogclub.co.uk/shop/books/TrainingGuides/passinggradeone.htm
Although its aimed at working dogs some of the exercises are just as relevant for pet dogs.
Thank you for this, I will get it. What occurs to me is that when you first own a dog like Rufus (if you do not know about COL), lots of people, even trainers, give you competing advice. I was told variously, not to gun dog train because it would brake his spirit (!), to let him off the lead as soon as he had had his jabs, but most relevant to your advice, NEVER to follow him into the hunt, even to retrieve him. I am supposed to walk off. I have been quite confused over the years. There are some places where I simply cannot reach him to get him out. Perhaps the suggested book will give me some better ideas. I hope it wont be too late.

You're always going to get conflicting advice on things, especially dog training I've found! I've read plenty of books and spoken to plenty of trainers and I don't treat any of them as being 'the bible' or see it like I must follow all the advice in any of them to the letter. I take out the bits which I think apply to my dogs and our situation and discard the rest and I don't use the same methods for all my dogs, they're all individuals and I tailor their training accordingly.

For recall running in the opposite direction undoubtedly works for some dogs, Rodaidh for example never lets me out of his sight and would instantly come steaming after me but Alfie wouldn't have given a toss if I'd dropped off the face of the earth when he was in hunting mode. I could have run away screaming at the top of my lungs and juggling roast chickens and he wouldn't have stopped what he was doing to follow me. The only way to get him back to me was to go after him - this was the best method for him, it may not be the best method for some other dogs, like Rodaidh for example. It's down to the owner who knows their dog and how they react (or not!) to look at the options and then decide what suits them and their dog best. 
Hmm. The idea of a choice for Rufus between the hunt and roast chicken sounds really interesting. Not sure what he would do. Or whether we would get to the hunting ground with the chicken intact. I do know what you mean about tailoring the commands etc and our behaviour. However, as a first time dog owner who was struggling, I didn't have the understanding to chose the right thing. We live and learn.

Offline sharonmansfield

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Re: Very Poor Recall - and thats on a good day
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2009, 10:43:59 PM »
I like the juggling roast chickens comment and I can assure you that Bella would not care either, when her nose is down she is switched off to me, she does not hear me or see me. You can run in the other direction but then you have to turn around and go and fetch her as she has not seen that you have gone in the first place. Tonight it was a black labrador that took her fancy, the other owner was a star, he put his dog on the lead and completely ignored her because thats another thing she runs off to other people and they give her a pet and tell her she is a lovely girl reinforcing her shoddy behaviour. I felt like saying to the lab owner do you want to train my girl as his dog did exactly as it was told - sickening!!!!
She is in for a shock this weekend because that was the last time she shows me up in public. Tomorrow its of to PAH to get a long line and a whistle and a new special toy. ( and probably new collars and treats etc etc as I cannot resist!) its time for Bella Bootcamp!!!!!

Cocker Spaniels are like chocolates you can never have just one!

Offline Top Barks

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Re: Very Poor Recall - and thats on a good day
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2009, 08:41:37 PM »
This is one method I used and was posted by a friend on another forum but i hope she won't mind me pinching it to share with you guys.


Leslie Nelson says that the Really Reliable Recall is easy to learn, easy to teach, fun and reliable.  Works at a distance, no matter what dog is doing and is instant. 

Before starting to train it, you need to do a few things: 

1.  You need to find somewhere to let your dog off lead.  Neighbour's gardens, fenced fields, tennis courts, indoor riding schools.    Anywhere you can let them run but they do need to run.  If your dog likes to run and they never have the opportunity, obviously they won't come back if you do let them off. 

If you can't find a totally secure area, she suggests letting the dog drag a line to give you more confidence that you'll be able to stand on the line if they take off.

2.  You need to make sure also that your dog has plenty of mental exercise also.  She recommends clicker training.  And teaching a  retrieve - if your dog is focussed on fetching a toy, they are running but less likely to run off.

3.  Never call the dog for unpleasant things.  If you need your dog to clip their nails or come in from the garden or anything else they don't like, go and get them.  If they think coming to you might result in something bad happening, it will weaken your recall. 

4.  Always reward your dog if they come to you for any reason.  Automatic check ins are good things and if you reward them you'll get more of them. 

5.  Don’t call the dog if you think they won’t come.  Doing that teaches them they can ignore recall cues. 

6.  Play lots of recall games.  Hide and seek around the house or having two handlers, both with the same rewards and calling dogs between them. 

7.  Make a list of all the things that your dog likes and which you can use to reward them.  Katie likes food, a thrown ball, tuggy with a rabbit skin, having her ears scratched and getting to go off to hunt again.


8. You need a strong, positive relationship for a good recall and the above 7 things will help with that.  I'd also do TTouch to help with the relationship.  Before doing things with your dog, think how it might impact on the relationship. 

9.  If you have a particularly independent dog you might have to teach them to like being touched and spoken to.  You can use food.  Feed them their daily food while talking to them and stroking them. 

Once you have done all of the above, you can start the first step to teaching the recall.   This step teaches the dog they need to pay attention. 

Say name in tone you will use when you want the dog to look at you. 

Reward for the dog looking at you - best to use a clicker or make the look with a special word and then give a treat.  The dog might not be next to you and you need to reward them instantly for looking at you.   

Your aim is to have 100 times when your dog looks at you the instant you say their name (not all at once, you might practise this a few times a day). 

If you get it wrong.  You haven’t got to 100 and the dog doesn’t look, do something unexpected.  Run out of room, play with another dog etc.  Then start again with the name game.

Do not repeat the name.  The name has to be a first time only thing. 

Once you have the 100 times, you are ready to start teaching the Really Reliable Recall.

Really Reliable Recall:

1. Need a signal.

Needs to be a new word.  Something you don’t use for anything else.  Doesn’t matter what it is.  Can use NOW.  Yoo Hoo.  Biscuits.  What’s This etc. 

You can teach more than one signal.  I.e. individual signals for each dog.  Also a group one. 


2. Use the new signal 3 times a day for the next few weeks or months (depends on how independent the dog is) when you are 100% certain that the dog will come to you.  Start in the house for the first few days or weeks.

3. ONLY SAY IT ONCE.   

4. Reinforce every step.  Cheer, clap – show enthusiasm for every step.

5. Feed / Play with the dog for 30 secs – 1 min after they have come to you.   Use special treats, special toys, everything you have.  The reward must last for between 30 secs and 1 minute - time it because it is longer than you think.

Leslie Nelson suggests that to get your enthusiasm for the recall at the correct level, imagine your worst case scenario for recall (i.e. dog chasing cat toward a busy road) and imagine using the recall signal and the dog turning instantly and coming to you at top speed.  Reward every practise as if it is that recall. 


The most common reasons that Leslie has seen for recalls not working are owners repeating the cue, not practising 3 times a day and being stingy with the rewards. 

If it goes wrong and the dog doesn’t come after you call him even though you were 100% sure he would  Do something odd.  Run and hide.  Get in car.  Play with toys.

Then do 1 easy recall, reward heavily and go back to practising in the house for 2 weeks. 

The longer you can go practising 3 times a day, without testing the recall, the stronger it will be. 

Doing the practise should also improve every day recall. 

P.S. Leslie Nelson has Afghan Hounds and Whippets and says she can recall them from chasing using the really reliable recall. 

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
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Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Offline mcphee

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Re: Very Poor Recall - and thats on a good day
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2009, 09:20:20 PM »
Thank you Top barks. I may have my work cut out achieving RRR. I am definitely going to try to achieve the 100 looks when I have rehearsed the other stuff.No 5 of  the preliminary stuff could be a problem. If Rufus has gone in the maize, should I not call him?

Offline sharonmansfield

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Re: Very Poor Recall - and thats on a good day
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2009, 09:29:33 PM »
wow thanks for all of this Topbarks I really do appreciate your time to help. I have started intensive training today and this is a massive help to point me in the right direction.
Cocker Spaniels are like chocolates you can never have just one!

Offline Top Barks

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Re: Very Poor Recall - and thats on a good day
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2009, 10:03:31 PM »
Thank you Top barks. I may have my work cut out achieving RRR. I am definitely going to try to achieve the 100 looks when I have rehearsed the other stuff.No 5 of  the preliminary stuff could be a problem. If Rufus has gone in the maize, should I not call him?

If you can't be sure he'll come then no or he'll learn to ignore you!

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
Member of The Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (00977)
 
Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Offline sharonmansfield

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Re: Very Poor Recall - and thats on a good day - update
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2009, 07:56:06 PM »
Well its now a week on and we have practiced everyday, I did not get the long line as we ended up not going out shopping but that does not mean I have dismissed this advice.
I  have tried the following first.
I took her out on her own to start the play and training with a nice new tug toy, she was not interested at all, I felt a bit disheartened but this was day one. Day two I could not take them out individually so gathered up both dogs and some treats. We started to play our ball games and I kept making her focus on chasing a ball and then I called her to bring it back to me, this did not work at first as she just bogged off with the ball, however I got the treats out and Jasmine my well behaved dog came to get one, Bella on seeing this came storming over as she could not miss out if Jasmine was getting something (this is a dog that does not normally eat treats when out, never thought of using Jasmine to help!!) little and often I have called them both back and given a treat and a cuddle. This has been working but only when she is focused on the ball game. When she does one into the undergrowth she tunes out still - I am however now going into the undergrowth and dragging her out to get her focus again and starting the game over. I think Nicola suggested that - thank you.
I am so committed to making this work.
Its early days yet but I do feel more positive as at least she has been coming back and getting a reward and a cuddle, this is more than she did this time last week. If there are distractions about, for now I just put her back on her long flexi lead and then let her off again when its passed.
I find it quite exciting to see some improvement already and a method that seems for now to be working.
Thank you everyone for your advice I will post again when we have done some more.
Cocker Spaniels are like chocolates you can never have just one!

Offline milly

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Re: Very Poor Recall - and thats on a good day
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2009, 01:40:59 PM »
Good for you. The key thing is consistancy, so keep at it, no days off :005:
They'll be good days and bad days but hang in there and your perseverance will show rewards.
Milly

Offline sharonmansfield

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Re: Very Poor Recall - and thats on a good day
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2009, 02:17:42 PM »
Thanks for your support Milly its really appreciated it, today I had another breakthrough, at first she was naughty and ran off to greet a young lad with 2 dogs so I apologised and told him she was in training and dragged her away not that he was bothered but lack of doggy manners bothers me, I got her focus again when a lady turned up with a golden cocker well she was off so I shouted Bella come and she actually turned around and came back, my dog stopped in her tracks and came back - I was choked. In just a week she is actually getting it. She has lapses and I know this will take time but by using a mixture of advice from everyone who responded to my plea she is a far better behaved dog today than she was this time last week. I am thrilled.
Cocker Spaniels are like chocolates you can never have just one!

Offline Nicola

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Re: Very Poor Recall - and thats on a good day
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2009, 08:27:11 PM »
That's great to hear :shades: :D  It takes time and (lots of!) patience but it's amazing when you see them really starting to get it.
Nicola, Tilly, Rodaidh and Caoimhe x



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Offline sharonmansfield

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Re: Very Poor Recall - and thats on a good day
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2009, 09:18:10 PM »
Nicola thanks I can't tell you how over the moon I was, I took your advice so every time she bogs off and ignores me I go and get her and get her to re-focus on what we are doing and its working, I am thrilled.
Cocker Spaniels are like chocolates you can never have just one!