Author Topic: Is it cocker rage or something else  (Read 3771 times)

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Offline cazza shearer

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Is it cocker rage or something else
« on: July 07, 2009, 09:44:28 AM »
Hi

I moved  from the UK to Abu Dhabi about 6 months ago with my two cocker spaniels ( coco and ash ) . I thought they were adjusting well to the change but Ash seems to have developed some aggressive behaviour which really is unlike him .  >:D >:D At the moment as you can imagine with temperatures of 44 - 52 degrees and humidity at 70 - 80% it is difficult .  :-* However we do try and if not play alot of throwing the ball etc and they seem to get tired with this, The villa has AC on all day and there is 5 bowls of water around for them to drink out of so I think they are OK . :-\

Ash is normally very subservient , just wants cuddles and lie down beside you to have his belly rubbed . Coco the other dog has always been a bit mad with tendancies towards cocker rage . >:D But lately in last two weeks Ash has started growling and he bit my mother in law and drew blood we were devistated as it really really is so unlike him . When he bit her he was protecting my husband she bent over to kiss him goodnight . He has known her for over 18 months ( Ash and Coco were rescuse dogs - Ash we have had for 18 months and coco around 6 years ) . Then he went for her again the night after - to date he has done this 3 times. Then last night he went for my husband , he loves / is devoted to my husband so again whats going on . I have had to cancel the dog walker as I cant risk him bighting her . ph34r

Ash to date has not gone for me but who knows .  :shades:

In our house at the moment is Scotts mum and uncle , myself and Ash and Coco . ( Ash spent 3 months with Scotts uncle before he came over so he is quite attached to him as well ) . Is this a case tat Ash is confused on who is leader of the pack ? As he hasnt spent as long with my Mother in law as he did Scotts uncle but doesnt explain why he turned on Scott . Or is it Cocker rage and I may have to sort something out as over in UAE dogs are only one above pigs . Or is he bored indoors not being able to go for walks and running in forests etc  And I really wish I hadnt brought them now , problem is I love them so much I couldnt leave them . :'(


Any ideas or advise would be great !

CJ
CJ

Offline LurcherGirl

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Re: Is it cocker rage or something else
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2009, 10:00:48 AM »
Has your dog had a full vet check up?

My American Cocker had aggressive outbursts that some would have labelled cocker rage. It turned out to be hypothyroidsm and he has been fine since being on medication! So checking thyroid is always important with aggression issues.

It could of course also be the heat that affects him. Some dogs do not cope too well with it and sometimes display unusual behaviour because of it.

Vera
Vera Marney
BSc (Hons) Canine Behaviour and Training, APDT UK
www.wtdt.co.uk and www.wtdt-eastanglia.co.uk

Offline Karma

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Re: Is it cocker rage or something else
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2009, 10:06:22 AM »

Haven't got time to reply properly at the minute, but didn't want to read and run.

It is highly unlikely to be cocker rage - this is very very rare and is a very specific condition.  It is more likely that your dogs are having difficulty adjusting to the changes in their lives at the minute... I do have some suggestions for things you can try, which I will add when I get home from work (though I'm sure others will give you great advice in the meantime!).


As LurcherGirl says, is there any way of getting a proper vet check done on them both?? Are there any decent vets near you who will accept how important your dogs are to you?? A full health check should always be done in any cases of behavioural change, as the smallest thing can have a huge impact.

Remembering Honey. Aug 2007-July 2020

Offline GillSarge

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Re: Is it cocker rage or something else
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2009, 10:07:13 AM »
i would get them checked out at the vets, it might be a simple case of confusion, they are trying to settle into their new home and it sounds like you have a few ppl there, the heat may be making him tired, and of course visitors around keeps them from sleeping etc.  Don't regret bringing them with you, see how it goes when it's back to normal.  It's probably highly unlikey that he will go for the dog walker as he was associate them as something fun, but no harm in warning or being there to make sure he does behave with the dog walker.

Also get them clipped close, even if your not keen on the look, once again, when they get use to the heat you can grow it out a bit.

Offline Hurtwood Dogs

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Re: Is it cocker rage or something else
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2009, 10:23:02 AM »
They've both had a lot of upheaval in their lives - whatever their history before being rehomed, and they are now experiencing a very serious environmental change (the climate) that's probably making them feel a bit miserable at the moment too. They can't run around as much but that doesn't stop a cockers natural instinct to be busy a lot of the time, so I'd suggest they are a little frustrated just now also.

None of us can really advise you about their behaviour on an internet forum however, true rage is extremely rate and it's VERY unlikely that either of your dogs have that. I would be very careful about using this term when talking about your dogs with a vet also as despite lots of evidence to the contrary, a lot of old fashioned vets still like to label dogs, particularly cockers, with this and will often advise destroying the dog. This is tragic when in reality the dog has some behaviour issues that may have been brought about by ill health or incorrect handling or training and these issues can be addressed with medical help and/or help from a good dog trainer or behaviourist.

Can I ask how you or others in your family handle the dogs when you have an incident like this? And how you manage/train them day to day?

Hannah, Dave & Normy xx

Trev 2001-07 soul dog, always in my heart and dreams x

Offline cazza shearer

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Re: Is it cocker rage or something else
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2009, 10:47:56 AM »
Hi

when Ash growls etc we shout bad dog and turn our back on hime for 10 - 20 mins , then he feels bad waddles up like nothing happend and flopps on you .

Ash had three homes before he came to us , he was born in Scotland on a farm and used as a working dog as he is bigger than your average cocker , he is very strong .  He then came to london and the girl kept him for 18 months and then sold him on to a couple . They deceided it was unfair to keep Ash in a flat everyday on his own and we took him on . However he must have had loving homes as he is so affectionate .

Coco on the other hand we were his 5th home in 7 months ( we got him at 7 months old and he is now nearly 7 years old ) therefore he is insicure and not as needy as Ash thats why its such a shock .

Just dont know what to do , you maybe right about the being tired as he has visitors and doesnt want to miss anything but to go for Scott my husband seems out of character .
CJ

Offline Jane S

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Re: Is it cocker rage or something else
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2009, 12:54:42 PM »
Sorry to hear about the problems you are having - I think I remember your previous posts about Coco a few years ago? I would agree that it sounds like you have two very unsettled, insecure dogs on your hands who are finding it very difficult to adjust to their new environment (as well as the hot climate). How long has it been since you moved to Abu Dhabi? Sometimes it can take many months for dogs to settle somewhere new (especially if they already have a history of insecurity with numerous homes). It does not sound like either of your dogs have Rage - they are reacting to the upheaval in their lives and will need lots of time and patience on your part. Do you have access to good veterinary advice or an experienced trainer? I've Googled and found that the American Veterinary Clinic in AD has an on-site trainer but there is no information given about her experience or methods she might practice. You would need to be careful as confrontational, punishment-based methods could make things very much worse. If this is a big, modern vet clinic, it's possible they will be able to supply things like DAP collars and sprays which may help your dogs relax naturally. It's worth asking anyway....
Jane

Offline LouiseAS

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Re: Is it cocker rage or something else
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2009, 01:12:28 PM »
If I were you I'd get him thoroughly checked by a vet, if there is nothing medically wrong with him then seek a professional behaviourist, someone who is familiar with Cockers and doesn't just some in screaming RAGE.

It might also help to study his body language too because usually facial expression, body language etc. will change and you can pre-empt the tantrum and work out triggers.  Hopefully, you can manage it until the dogs settle into their new way of life.
Louise & my beautiful girl Meg xx

Offline Hurtwood Dogs

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Re: Is it cocker rage or something else
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2009, 01:35:22 PM »
I've Googled and found that the American Veterinary Clinic in AD has an on-site trainer but there is no information given about her experience or methods she might practice. You would need to be careful as confrontational, punishment-based methods could make things very much worse. If this is a big, modern vet clinic, it's possible they will be able to supply things like DAP collars and sprays which may help your dogs relax naturally. It's worth asking anyway....

I've had a look for you also and this is the only one I could find too. If it was me out there I'd be inclined to give this American Vet Clinic a call and ask about their training methods. Generally, shouting at dogs and ignoring them isn't going to help the problem you have there. Dogs live in the moment so your dog isn't saying 'sorry' for what he's done he's just asking you what's going on as he's confused as to why you are behaving differently towards him but he's not able to connect what have been doing for 20 mins with what he did. Additionally, him growling isn't something that should be disciplined - you want him to warn you that he's not happy and may take action. What needs to be addressed is why he's actually growling in the first place. Is he scared? Is he in pain? Is he guarding something? A good behaviourist will be able to asses him and then advise you on how best to handle him in a positive way that will actually improve him, not scare him or make him worse.

You certainly DO NOT want to take advice from a trainer recomending that you 'dominate him' or show him his place in the pack as it is very likely that your dogs behaviour could worsen with this approach. Your first step should be to have both of them medically assessed to check that there are no health problems then do a lot of investigating to see if this clinic has a good trainer or behaviourist - You can ask about their training methods and come on here and post about them if you are not sure, we'll all be happy to help and there are some very knowledgable people on this site.

If you spend some time reading the posts in the behaviour section of this forum you will be able to pick a lot of useful information up from there and have a look at some of the 'Top Barks' videos in the video section. His dogs are all rescues, some of them had very bad issues and all have been trained/rehabilitated using kind methods with amazing results ;)

Hannah xxx

Hannah, Dave & Normy xx

Trev 2001-07 soul dog, always in my heart and dreams x

Offline brownsugar

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Re: Is it cocker rage or something else
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2009, 04:05:22 PM »
Reading in your post the dogs spend their time in the house when they were used to walks in the forest; I wondered if this could make problems worse? As this too may be a stress factor and it seems your dogs have (had) an awful lot of stress to cope with. TBH I would be more surprised if they had no problems!

Perhaps there are activities you can organize for them IN the house? In the past I've done some "agility" games with things like chairs and let the dogs seek out hidden items in the house. Some COL-members do clickertraining and it seems to mentally tire out their dogs a lot.
This won't solve the problems, but might hopefully contribute to their happiness.






Offline ruby ruby doo

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Re: Is it cocker rage or something else
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2009, 04:31:14 PM »
Hi It sounds like you have done really well with your rescues and have got the time and patience to resolve their issues. As others have said cocker rage is very different to general bouts of agression. Do I understand correctly that the dogs cannot get free walks off lead anymore...? I know when Ruby gets less walks it tends to make her a bit grumpy and hyper and we need to be careful around her when she is in that mood because she will be snappy and can get agressive. Suggestions that you stretch their brains with training sound constructive, and consulting the vet for a check up could nt hurt..but like us humans in transition , crisis and times of change dogs react and struggle to cope with new circumstances and perhaps time and space will cure this but obviously you have to really recognise the agression triggers and avoid confrontations! I m sure because you obviously love your dogs and have seen them through some hard times you will have the patience to resolve this and I just want to wish you well and hope all comes good.
Jo and Ruby
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Offline Karma

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Re: Is it cocker rage or something else
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2009, 04:49:25 PM »
You have been given some great advice so far....

I have re-read your posts and just want to raise the following...

1) You say Ash has started growling and then bit your MIL - he is growling to say he is uncomfortable with something (this is the only way a dog has to say "Back Off") so you need to find out what is causing the growl... did he growl before he bit?? Where was he when your MIL bent over to kiss your OH goodnight?? A human leaning over is very very intimidating to a dog, so he may not have been "guarding" your OH, but rather responding to a the perceived threat of your MIL leaning over him.
2) You say Coco has "tendencies towards Cocker Rage" - I would get that out of your head straight away - Coco may well have longer standing behavioural problems that you have been able to manage, but Cocker Rage is extremely rare, but can be a very serious issue - it's not something that comes and goes.   Some vets seem to like to "diagnose" Rage at the drop of a hat but in reality there is a strict set of criteria which would need to be met before Rage should be even considered...
3) You asked whether Ash is confused about who is "leader of the pack" - this sounds like you are looking to pack theory/dominance to solve your problems - this is being increasingly discreditted by modern dog trainers (and can cause more problems than it causes).  It may be that, with so many adults in a house, not everyone is being consistent about reinforcing boundaries... that's not a "pack leader" issue, just a consistency issue.

As others have said, you really need to get a behaviourist in to see what is causing the growling, so that you can address the cause... however your options do seem to be limited and if the contact Jane and Trevor have found uses negative methods, I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.  Try and get hold of some books (or search the internet) to find info on canine body language and positive training methods.  One of the key causes of behavioural issues is something as simple of lack of consistency (not saying that this is the case but improving consistency is certainly not going to cause more problems!) - make sure everyone in the house is using the same responses to the same situations.  Avoid confrontation and try to find solutions to potential problems before they arise - if a dog always growls when someone sits down next to them on the sofa I would either put a "no sofa" rule in place (spending a lot of time positively training the dog to learn the new rule), or simply ask the dog to get off the sofa prior to sitting down (and if need be train a reliable "off" command to allow this to happen).  I most definately wouldn't continue to sit down next to the dog and tell it off for growling at me.  (Again, I am not suggesting this is a cause of your problems, only demonstrating the problem solving routes to look at.)

As others have said, it is nigh on impossible to give good behavioural advice on specific issues over the internet, which is why I have tried to give some more general advice that you may help you learn more about your relationship with your dogs.

A couple of final points -

Don't tell a dog off for growling - simply walk away from it (while trying to see what the cause is).  

If Ash is "bigger than your average cocker" and used to be a working dog, he may come from working lines rather than show lines, so mental stimulation will be very important to him - clicker training is great for tiring them out mentally, without over-exerting them in the heat you have there!  

And don't underestimate the impact of the heat.... keep them clipped short, make sure them can paddle in cold water (the quickest way to cool a dog down is via their feet), freeze yoghurt and tuna, or other yummy treats, so that they have doggie ice lollies to help cool them down... Honey gets really really tired in the heat - and a tired dog tends to be a grumpier dog...  :shades:
Remembering Honey. Aug 2007-July 2020

Offline sharonmansfield

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Re: Is it cocker rage or something else
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2009, 10:29:19 PM »
No advice really other than to say don't feel bad for taking them with you. I would have done the same they are part of your family. My dogs go where I go.
Last week it was  hot here and my youngest growled a lot at my other dog all week, she also growled at me which she has NEVER done this was all out of character for her,  She also kept taking herself away to lie away from us and that is when she would growl as if to say just leave me alone. She went the vets for her boosters and as I was very worried I told him and he checked her over and said it was probably due to her imminent season. ie hormonal bitch!!  But this week its cold and wet again and she is back to normal so I am inclined to think it was the heat, 
 If this can make my usually happy dog very grumpy I can just imagine what yours are going through having to go through all of that upheaval and all of the extra people about the place and the heat
Good luck, sorry no advice just wanted to give you some support.
Sharon
Cocker Spaniels are like chocolates you can never have just one!

Offline cazza shearer

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Re: Is it cocker rage or something else
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2009, 05:04:48 AM »
Thank-you for all your help and support  :luv:, I have booked Ash in at the Vet this morning will let you know how he gets on , however I assume they will take a blood test and see if there is anything medical , that will take a few days to get the results . We have also contacted a behaviourist , so we will see what she says . :huh:

We chose our villa especially with our dogs in mind , safe , secure massive wall , huge back yard for them to run riot in and away from other houses so there barking wouldnt upset the locals . We even got one with a pool , but they won't go in . :huh: In the uk they were always jumping in ponds , rivers etc, infact once we took them on holiday to Norfolk ( think it was last easter ) and minus 3 degrees and snowing , we had to jump in and swim out to sea to rescue Coco ...............( mad dog ) saw a bird and swam out to get it ,  but didnt know how to swim back !! :005:

But here they won't go near the pool , I dont know if its because it smells of Chlorine or what , but I will go buy them a paddling pool and put that outside so they can go in and out when they fancy it !! Good idea .
Never heard of the doggy ice lollies !! Brill do I have to do anything else with the tuna just take it out the can and freeze it ? what other treats can I do for them ..................thank -you so much for all your help .  :luv: :luv:

We love our dogs we have no kids and they are '' our kids '' effectively . We were worried about when we  came out and they stayed in the UK as the import / export company who shipped them over said they would be in kennels one night , We were so worried our dogs have never been in kennels and didnt know how they would react .  :blink:
Anyway the morning they were due to be shipped out the ""kennel maid '' or whatever they are called sent me a great e-mail and said that she hopes I dont mind she took Ash and Coco home for the night and they stayed in her house with her , her husband and her cocker spaniel pip. She sent photos , I couldnt believe it there was Ash and coco sprawled out on her sofa sound asleep . She said it was difficult getting into bed with them all ...................but what a great woman .  :D

They are very lucky dogs as people fall in love with them instantly and always treat them nice, coco because his unusaul colour and Ash because all he wants is a cuddle , They are very much people dogs they loved going up our local pub geting the odd pork scratching and they even had there own water bowls up there . Coco won a medal as best supporter of the year from the local football team as he was always down the park running round watching them . I think they miss this also as they only see us and the dog walker . Infact they held a going away party for the dogs ( not us them ) . >:D

Anyway thank you again and I will let you know how it all goes .. ;)





CJ

Offline cazza shearer

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Re: Is it cocker rage or something else
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2009, 08:22:37 AM »
Good news ash has been given a clean bill of health  :shades: blood test showed nothing glaringly obvious . So booked a behavioural therapist referred by vet , She is coming round tonight . So we will see hope we can sort it a snormally he's such a character , cuddles and hugs all the time . :005:

CJ