A bit more than snapping!

[Neo]

Hi,
We could do with some advice please.

Neo is now 5 years old and he first showed aggression towards puppies or dogs smaller than him some time ago, probs 18 months to 2 years ago. It started with puppies who would approach him and not leave him alone; ie sniffing around him. This seemed to annoy him and he would warn us that he was not happy by coming to sit beside us and looking up at us as if to say "thats it, I have had enough". Initally we didnt recognise it but after doing it a couple of times we realised and put him on the lead and took him away from the situation.

Since then a number of dogs have approached him. He is ball obsessed so in order to remove that as an issue we have stopped walking him with a ball as we felt that sometimes that complicated matters as we thought some of the approaches from other dogs, in his mind, were linked to that.

I think we have since proved that this is not the case because all dogs that approach him seem to be a potential issue, even the dogs he has grown up with and played with since being a puppy.

He has also moved on from puppies and has recently gone for a dogue de bordeux which, clearly, you cant get much bigger than!

The pattern seems to now be the same, a dog approached, Neo wags his tail, says hi but then the dog starts sniffing Neo's bits and then he goes for them. In the past some of these dogs have actually tried to mount him  .

Neo then actually goes for them. This is more than snapping, he does actually pin them down.

Today was the final straw when he went for a puppy Jack Russel that sniffed his bits and he actually had the dog pinneddown by the time my LH got to them. The owner, cleary peeved, said we should keep him on the lead as he is a vicous dog.  Our dog has never been called vicious nor have we ever thought of him as vicious, however we dont want him to be seen as a nasty dog.

Does anyone have any advice please? it would be much appreciated.

 

[Nicola]

I don't think Neo is 'vicious' at all. If a dog is rude and repeatedly tries to sniff his bits or - god forbid - tries to mount him Rodaidh will do exactly the same as Neo and I don't see it as a problem. He warns them first with his body language and by growling and it's only if they ignore him and persist that he'll go for them and he really will flatten them. Not all dogs are tolerant of puppies or rude behaviour in other dogs and to my mind they are entitled to put dogs in their place if they ignore polite warnings (posturing, growling etc.). From your post it seems that Neo is only displaying this behaviour to dogs who approach him and keep sniffing his bits or start mounting him and he obviously just doesn't like this. Not all dogs like other dogs sniffing around them or will put up with rude behaviour.

Obviously you don't want it to escalate to a situation where he decides that attack is the best form of defence and starts going for dogs before they actually approach him. Do you have any friends/acquaintances with well mannered dogs who aren't bothered about approaching other dogs that you could maybe go on a few walks with? If you were near here you could use Tilly but I'm not sure where you live.

[Bluebell]

I agree with Nicola.
My Vizsla, Isaac would do exactly the same as Neo. I quick sniff of his bits would be just about tolerated, as long as it only happened once But if any dog tried to mount him, or jump on him, he would be quick to tell thm what he thinks

[Helen]

I don't think Neo is 'vicious' at all. If a dog is rude and repeatedly tries to sniff his bits or - god forbid - tries to mount him Rodaidh will do exactly the same as Neo and I don't see it as a problem. He warns them first with his body language and by growling and it's only if they ignore him and persist that he'll go for them and he really will flatten them. Not all dogs are tolerant of puppies or rude behaviour in other dogs and to my mind they are entitled to put dogs in their place if they ignore polite warnings (posturing, growling etc.). From your post it seems that Neo is only displaying this behaviour to dogs who approach him and keep sniffing his bits or start mounting him and he obviously just doesn't like this. Not all dogs like other dogs sniffing around them or will put up with rude behaviour.

Obviously you don't want it to escalate to a situation where he decides that attack is the best form of defence and starts going for dogs before they actually approach him. Do you have any friends/acquaintances with well mannered dogs who aren't bothered about approaching other dogs that you could maybe go on a few walks with? If you were near here you could use Tilly but I'm not sure where you live.

agree with Nic and Bluebell and FWIW and Jarvis is exactly the same as Rodaidh - he WILL tell a dog off if it tries to mount him and won't take no for an answer - you say Neo pins them down but has he actually ever bitten another dog?

[joanne_v]

Nicola is right (as usual  ) Does Neo give out any warning signs to the other dogs? Frozen posture with tail high and either still or wagging followed by, lip quivering, baring teeth, low growl, snarl, snap and then bite/pinning is the usual escalation of things but it sounds as though Neo may have missed a few of these!

[Neo]

Hi,
Thanks for your help it really is appreciated. And it certainly makes me feel better to know that his behaviour is not vicious.

Neo freezes initially as if he is having a stand off but then goes straight to pinning down. He doesnt actually bite but goes to, if you know what I mean. He bares his teeth and looks like he is biting (he goes for the neck) but he (thankfully) hasnt caused any damage yet.  The big worry is that he will.  Also another worry is that he does this to the wrong dog and the dog turns on him and causes him some damage 

Neo is like a spoiled only child and I wonder if he just needs socialising - but not sure how to do that as we know no-one who we could walk him with.

BTW we live in Southampton.

Thanks again for the advice.

[phoenix]

Is this only when he's on the lead and unable to retreat gracefully? Otherwise I think he would have to be distracted by something else.
A COL meet would be good for both of you ,they are all so happy charging about that they don't bother with much personal sniffing! My lot only worry about losing sight of me in the group. They are both shy but mind their own business.
Hope you feel better and find dogs he can feel safe with.

[Bluebell]

Neo, give these guys a call, they are near Wickham, not far from Southampton
http://www.scallywagsdogs.com/

Or Annett Bowcott at  http://www.hamblehounds.com based in Hamble but has classes at Manor Farm Country Park just off J8 of M27

Both will be able to offer advise/support/classses

[Karma]

Scallywags have a dog club (£5 for an hour) on a Saturday which is great for doggies to learn manners at... if they don't know you you'd need a 1:1 lesson first so they can make sure you're dog will be ok there...

We go every week and there is a mix of free play, training, agility etc - there are lots of adolescent dogs who frequently get put in their place, but there are staff on hand to ensure nothing gets out of hand, and to reassure you when your dog is right to be doing some telling off.  There are a few older dogs too, so it's by no means only for young dogs.. 

Honey sounds quite similar to Neo - she is a stickler for manners, but sometimes misses out some of the warning signals... dog club really helps Honey and she is a lot more tolerant now - she is still grumpy if a dog sniffs for too long, but we can live with that! 

(Annette at Hamble Hounds is also very good - and they run specific classes aimed at improving behaviour in the park etc, but they run for a number of weeks and then finish, so it depends what would help you most  )

And definately come along to the next New Forest Meet.... it's a great opportunity for some socialisation 

(Whereabouts in Southampton are you?? We are between Southampton and Fareham!)

[Neo]

Thanks so much for the contacts. I have tonight sent an email to Scallywags and hope to hear from them soon.

We live in Sholing.

Details of the New Forest meet would be much appreciated.  I can see, from reading on here, that the problem has been created by us (isnt it always!). We tend to walk Neo alone and generally in the same place.  I am now starting to think that he thinks the field he runs in is his!!!!  And so doesnt like any other dogs in it.  It never crossed my mind before - duh!    But Neo doesnt like going in the car so we tend not to put him through that.  He has never liked the car as he had a very bad experience in a car when he was a puppy. we have tried to get him out of that by persevering but he just gets very stressed by it.

I am quite sure the answer is to take him to new places and a socialisation class is a good start to getting him some new friends.  Scallywags will also help, we hope, with him fear of travelling.

Thanks again everyone. All good advice. 

[Sarah.H]

Hi, Millie doesn't like dogs sniffing around her either. If I think there's going to be a problem (like a playful puppy) I either distract Millie by throwing her ball or call her back to me and shout out to the other person that she doesn't like other dogs pestering her. I've found it so important to really praise and reward if she ignores another dog but to not say anything if she reacts, any negative input from me (like shouting) just makes her more anxious and determined to drive the other dog away. I found Canine Body Language by Brenda Aloff a real help to prevent situations escalating.

[Karma]

Thanks so much for the contacts. I have tonight sent an email to Scallywags and hope to hear from them soon.

We live in Sholing.

Sally at scallywags is great - I'm sure she will be able to help! 

You are actually pretty close to us - we are in Sarisbury Green.  You are welcome to join us for a walk one weekend if you want - Honey's not the most tolerant of dogs (in fact she sounds very similar to Neo in that she hates dogs getting to up close and personal) but also isn't a hugely "in-your-face" dog, so they could be fairly good for each other...

We may well see you at Scallywags anyway!

We haven't got a date for the next New Forest Meet yet... I dare say we'll get one organised again soon... 

Claire