Optigen test should be compulsory for KC Accredited Breeders?

[Sheepscheeks]

Hi, we pick up our puppy, Freddie, from a KC Accredited breeder on Friday. Now, I am a novice so went on the KC website before starting to look for a puppy. I read about the Accredited Breeder scheme and the BVA eye tests and checked that the breeder had had these done for the parents (she has and they are currently clear). However, having had some discussions with another breeder on COL, I feel rather let down by the KC's requirements as the BVA tests only show a dog's eyes are clear on the day, not whether they carry/ are affected by PRA genetically. As there is a genetic test out there I think it is madness that breeders can call themselves accredited when there is no compulsion, only a recommendation that they carry out genetic screening. It also seems that our in our puppy's pedigree there are several dogs from a commercial breeder and there are no eye test details for these dogs on the KC website. 

Bottom line is we will still be having Freddie as we don't want to breed from him and have set our heart on him but I am more than a little outraged at the moment. I want to be looking forward to his arrival unreservedly but this has put a cloud over it for me when I tried to be a careful, responsible buyer.

[Jane S]

This is one of the complaints about the Accredited Breeders Scheme - not that many health tests for any breed are compulsory and those that are compulsory are what many breeders would consider to be the bare minimum compared to what tests are available. Also the ABS is being quite forcefully marketed as a kind of guarantee of finding a responsible, caring breeder when this really isn't the case - the scheme just lays down certain standards which most responsible, caring breeders would far exceed anyway. I've looked at the ABS list for Cockers quite recently and whilst there are a few good breeders on there, there are also quite a few out and out "commercial" breeders who can promote themselves as "Accredited" despite the fact they only do the bare minimum when it comes to health testing :-(

[Sheepscheeks]

Yes, the more I find out the more I think that the breeder we have found falls into the 'bare minimum' category but, as I said, I am a novice and was taken in by the KC ABS. I did actually email them about the annual screening asking why a dna test would have to be done annually (as I didn't understand at the time that the Optigen and BVA tests are different) but I wasn't advised of the difference, just told that the parents would both need screening before the litter was KC registered. I guess there isn't anything that can be done about this type of breeder is there? I just wouldn't recommend her to anyone.

[Jane S]

I guess there isn't anything that can be done about this type of breeder is there? I just wouldn't recommend her to anyone.

The only thing you can do about this kind of breeder is not buy from them really - it is quite legal to breed without health testing & it's quite legal to commercially breed puppies as a business as long as you're properly licensed. The only way breeding standards will ever really improve is if puppy buyers start being a lot more demanding and refuse to buy from any breeder who does not do all or most of the recommended health tests.

[bosso20640]

Speaking to my Vet he seems to suggest the KC Screening hasn,t ever really taken off.I know by looking on their page the eye panel list leave vast swathes of the country not covered sufficently maybe every couple of months by a visiting eye panel vet

[bluegirl]

There are dog shows that have the eye vets visit them and the KC/BVA eye tests are conducted from there (at a reduced rate). There are also plenty satelite clinics for the DNA testing where all you have to do is go to own vet for a blood test and send it on to a satelite clinic and they'll post it on for you. You can also go and visit these clinics if more local.
There is no longer any excuse for not DNA testing breeding stock and I agree accredited breeders should be made to compulsory DNA test.

[Pip895]

There is no longer any excuse for not DNA testing breeding stock and I agree accredited breeders should be made to compulsory DNA test.

I totally agree - it seems daft that this is not compulsory - the tests don’t even seem that expensive - it makes you wonder why tests are not done - do the breeders who don’t test have something to hide?  What is the KC playing at?   I can’t be alone in being willing to pay more for a pup that you know is clear.

Just sounding off a bit here  - but if to be an accredited breeder you had to demonstrate that your dogs were clear of PRe & Fn and all new SC's also had to be clear(not just “not affected”), then wouldn’t we be rid of these diseases in a reasonable timescale? At least if not, we would get to a situation fairly quickly that would allow the KC to refuse the registration of dogs that are not clear.   Wouldn’t the pain now for certain breeders and individuals be worth the end result?  I don’t understand the KC’s attitude  – have they even complied with the requirements of the APGAW report and made testing of SC’s compulsory – I couldn’t tell from a brief reading of there response.

(How about extending it to ftch to?! ) I’m no expert on any of this but unless there is a clear advantage to breeders to test there dogs they wont be tested by and large.   

Putting the entire onus on the puppy buyer isn’t the answerer IMO I had all good intentions when starting out, to buy from tested clear stock but finding a working girl, home raised within 3hrs of home proved hard enough – after 3 months I just had to settle for the assurances that Working cockers have a low incidence of the diseases in question, buy untested and hope for the best.   BTW I would gladly have paid an extra £200 for a pup I knew to be clear but I couldn’t find one at any price! )

[Sharon]

I personally feel it should be compulsory for ALL breeders, not just ABs, any pup registered with the KC should have tested parents or come from a breeding with one clear parent.

[cockers rock!]

I had a bit of a roller coaster ride getting my pup and I would have to agree that the ABS scheme is very misleading for potential purchasers.  I had done quite a lot of research but was still caught out on a few areas.  Even if the breeder says the tests are done you should always see the paperwork.  The thing is once you have fallen in love with and named your pup it is nigh on impossible to consider returning them if things come to light afterwards even if the breeder gives you that option.

Knowing what I know now I would research the following if I decide to get cocker 2

Eye tests (PRA genetic test) Primary Glaucoma (Gonioscopy) BVA tests as there other eye problems apart from PRA.  The BVA panellist I spoke to was worried that the advent of PRA testing meant that regular eye health testing was being put to one side and his view was that eye health check up should still be undertaken even if the dog was PRA clear/carrier

FN test

Hip Dysplasia

I would also ensure that both testicles had fully descended if buying a male pup and ask general question about the longevity of the dam and sire bloodlines.   In speaking to a pet insurance company they mentioned the incidence of heart murmurs in cocker spaniels - it is not something I had heard before and have no knowledge of whether there is a genetic link re heart murmurs.  When we had our pup checked the vet gave him a big thumbs up for a strong heartbeat but was a bit worried about his testicle issues.

All that aside I doubt whether many dogs have a copletely perfect health scorecard but at least you will be able to make informed choices.  Also in my opinion it is a good idea to get a puppy from a knowledgeable breeder who you like and respect and who genuinely wants to ensure their pups have a great home and will provide you with reasonable back up should it be necessary.

Take your pup for a puppy check at the Vet when you get him but please do enjoy him - I was in a similar position to you and although I adored my pup the first week or so had a bit of a cloud over it as the breeder had misrepresented the eye test status on his website.  I had to involve trading standards to get the test done (clear thank god) and it was all a bit sticky for about 3 months. 

[JohnW]

I had a bit of a roller coaster ride getting my pup and I would have to agree that the ABS scheme is very misleading for potential purchasers.  I had done quite a lot of research but was still caught out on a few areas.  Even if the breeder says the tests are done you should always see the paperwork.  The thing is once you have fallen in love with and named your pup it is nigh on impossible to consider returning them if things come to light afterwards even if the breeder gives you that option.

Knowing what I know now I would research the following if I decide to get cocker 2

Eye tests (PRA genetic test) Primary Glaucoma (Gonioscopy) BVA tests as there other eye problems apart from PRA.  The BVA panellist I spoke to was worried that the advent of PRA testing meant that regular eye health testing was being put to one side and his view was that eye health check up should still be undertaken even if the dog was PRA clear/carrier

FN test

Hip Dysplasia

I would also ensure that both testicles had fully descended if buying a male pup and ask general question about the longevity of the dam and sire bloodlines.   In speaking to a pet insurance company they mentioned the incidence of heart murmurs in cocker spaniels - it is not something I had heard before and have no knowledge of whether there is a genetic link re heart murmurs.  When we had our pup checked the vet gave him a big thumbs up for a strong heartbeat but was a bit worried about his testicle issues.

All that aside I doubt whether many dogs have a copletely perfect health scorecard but at least you will be able to make informed choices.  Also in my opinion it is a good idea to get a puppy from a knowledgeable breeder who you like and respect and who genuinely wants to ensure their pups have a great home and will provide you with reasonable back up should it be necessary.

Take your pup for a puppy check at the Vet when you get him but please do enjoy him - I was in a similar position to you and although I adored my pup the first week or so had a bit of a cloud over it as the breeder had misrepresented the eye test status on his website.  I had to involve trading standards to get the test done (clear thank god) and it was all a bit sticky for about 3 months.  

Some excellent points made  

[Sheepscheeks]

Interesting to see this thread still going. I will be writing to the Cocker Spaniel Breed Club at some point because the Kennel Club told me it is the Breed Club who needs to ask for changes to the requirements of Accredited Breeder status.

I am indeed enjoying Freddie - we took him straight to the vet when we picked him up and, apart from a hernia (which may sort itself out and was not disclosed to us or reported by the breeder's vet who gave 1st injection) he has a clean bill of health. He has settled with us well and in the last couple of weeks has really started to take notice of 'Ow' shouted at him when he bites - he usually stops now.

[jennyspin]

Speaking as an accredited breeder who does do all of the tests available, including optigen I would agree with you. However, while having two of my girls eye tested via the BVA scheme recently I enquired about one of my girls being optigen A by parentage and was told that vets are questioning the reliability of the optigen results?!!!! I was totally confused!

[Jane S]

Speaking as an accredited breeder who does do all of the tests available, including optigen I would agree with you. However, while having two of my girls eye tested via the BVA scheme recently I enquired about one of my girls being optigen A by parentage and was told that vets are questioning the reliability of the optigen results?!!!! I was totally confused!

To some extent that may perhaps be because vets are losing income as a lot of people who have Optigen tested are no longer clinically eye testing. The eye panellist we generally use is all in favour of the Optigen tests but in combination with yearly eye tests (not instead of)

[loppylugs]

I am not an Accredited breeder,and personally dont agree with it,all my dogs are tested for FN and PRA because i love them and want to breed healthy pups,i only breed when i want one to show,i obvously cant keep all the pups,so i want who ever buys a puppy from me to have a healthy one.Because i love the breed.I know alot of breeders who tested the reliability of having clear puppys from parentage and all have been proved clear,i think vets.dont like anything that is not done by them selves,as it takes money away from them.

[jennyspin]

Well said Bev! I've always tested my girls from day one and have always used health screened stud dogs. Again, because I love them and the breed and not because someone at the kennel club tells me I should do. I think that if you do love the breed and want to breed healthy, well socialised and excellent temperament puppies then you do do all you can to make sure that this happens. Unfortunitely, the KC AB scheme does seem to still leave the door open for puppy farmers.