Paperwork re docked tail - what can I do?

[Geordietyke]

Hi all.  When I took my pupster Odie to the vet for his 1st check up at 8.5 weeks old, the vet told me his tail had been docked   I was shocked and upset, couldn't believe it as I always thought a docked tail was very short - his tail currently measures 5" long and he's 13 weeks old.  The breeder hadn't mentioned anything about this and I even had a conversation about tail docking with her prior to buying him  .  My problem now is, as docking is illegal (he is a show type), my vet said I need some sort of paperwork from the vet who carried out the docking in case I'm quizzed about it by anyone.  I've chased the breeder up several times over the past 5 weeks about this and she just says her vet says it's "not high priority" on his list of things to do!    Is there any way I can involve anyone else (Kennel Club?) into hurrying him up about the paperwork?  Your thoughts please would be greatly appreciated.  

[milly]

Does the breeder actually acknowledge that the tail is docked then?
Vets have to certify that they have seen specified evidence that the dog is likely to work in specified areas. The puppies being docked also have to be microchipped, either at the time of docking or when the vet feels they are old enough. The vet then signs a declaration that all the regulations regarding docking have been fulfilled.
I'd be surprised if a vet had done that with a show cocker, and why wouldn't the breeder have told you?

[Geordietyke]

My breeder said in her first email when I queried it "When pups were born a gold pup had a hook right at the tip of his tail and my vet decided that it was best to remove it".  Even if this is so, surely I need paperwork to confirm this has been done?  Also, he wasn't microchipped, I had that done at his 2nd injection a few weeks ago.

[vixen]

It does sound a little odd as the paper work should have been completed at the time of docking.
Your breeder does sound rather evasive   
Usually only working cockers are docked now.  My two have been docked but quite long (the breeder prefers them that way) and a certificate signed by a vet states they might be used for working purposes. This certificate was handed to me at purchase, along with pedigree, insurance details, microchip details etc.
Your situation does seem odd - no paperwork and a docked show type.
Could you get the breeder to give you the name of the vet so that you can chase him up about this.
I would definitely get in touch with the breeder again and ask for the name of her vet. 

[Nicola]

So the breeder has admitted that the pups' tails were docked? If they have been I also find that very odd with him being a show type Cocker, is his mother or any of his siblings used for working? In order for a vet to dock tails the bitch owner has to provide proof that it is intended for the pups to be used or sold for working purposes. The vet then signs certificates to prove that the pups were legally docked and all the paperwork was seen and microchipping carried out etc. which are passed on to the new owners - I have one for Caoimhe as she was bred in England and is legally docked.

ETA, just saw your last post, if it was just your pup that had their tail docked/tipped and for medical purposes then I'd agree with what Vixen says about getting the vet details so you can speak to them to a) confirm this and b) get them to sign something stating this that you can keep just in case.

[hedgehog]

Did your pup have his first vaccine done by the breeders vet? if so did you get a vaccine card if you did this should have the name of the breeders vet on it, I would then give this vet a ring and try to sort out why pupster has been docked

[Geordietyke]

No, I had both vaccs done at my vets as the breeder prefers to have 1st jab done at 11 weeks and 2nd one at 13 weeks.  As I collected Odie at 8 weeks old, I had him done at 9 weeks (1st) and 11 weeks (2nd + microchipped).  Breeder keeps saying she will keep chasing up vet but I'll ask her to their details and chase up.  I just wanted to know which organisation says it's illegal to dock show types so I can contact them if I'm still having problems getting a signed vet letter.   

[milly]

http://www.cdb.org/awa/
From what you've said your pup was docked because it had  ''a hook right at the tip of his tail and my vet decided that it was best to remove it", if thats the case I suspect you need to find out if the vet thought it was necessary for medical reasons, was the tail damaged therefore docked for health reasons. If it was just because of the visual appearance I'm no expert but that doesn't seem to fit the docking criteria as I read it. I'd be surprised if a vet didn't follow the docking laws.

[Coco]

This sounds a bit dodgy, but you could say that your vet is demanding evidence of a legal docking or they may report them, that should get them moving, for peace of mind! However, it's very unlikely that you will ever need to produce evidence of a legal docking unless you went to shows etc (don't even know if you can show a docked dog now???) so if they have done it illegally, while i'd worry about the standards of your breeder, I wouldn't worry with regard to you having any issues with it. 

[hollyd443]

No, I had both vaccs done at my vets as the breeder prefers to have 1st jab done at 11 weeks and 2nd one at 13 weeks.  As I collected Odie at 8 weeks old, I had him done at 9 weeks (1st) and 11 weeks (2nd + microchipped).  Breeder keeps saying she will keep chasing up vet but I'll ask her to their details and chase up.  I just wanted to know which organisation says it's illegal to dock show types so I can contact them if I'm still having problems getting a signed vet letter.   

Poor Odie And poor you also, I'd find it very upsetting to find I'd purchased a tail docked pup when the breeder had not stated this. I'm not a fan of docking and went well out of my way to find two undocked working type cockers. When you said it was because he had a 'hook tail' do you think it was cosmetic or causing a problem?

This doc tells you more about it: http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/welfare/act/documents/tail-docking.pdf I don't think there is a divide between show and working as far as the law is concerned. Odie could not participate in a show/event where people pay a public entrance fee. The breeder should however have proved to the vet that she was selling to working homes and provided identification such as a gun licence:

Frequently asked questions

What kind of working dogs can be docked?

Any spaniel, terrier, hunt point retrieve breed or their crosses can be docked (as long as the necessary evidence indicating that they are likely to work
is produced).

What kind of evidence do I need to prove that my dog will work in order to have it docked?

The puppy must be presented with the dam, and a statement provided by the owner (or the owner’s representative) that the dog is intended to work in one of
the specified areas. Additional evidence related to the particular type of work the dog will perform is also required. This is detailed in the regulations.

Can I continue to show my dog if it is already docked?

The showing ban, at events to which the public is charged for admission, only applies to dogs docked on or after 6 April 2007.

Can my dog participate in field trials if it has been docked?

Yes.

Must a vet dock a working dog’s tail if asked to do so?

No – the decision is discretionary. The legislation does not require a vet to dock an eligible dog’s tail.

How do I know if my dog’s tail has been legally docked?

Dogs which have been legally docked must have a certificate issued by a vet.
The certificate contains certain information required by law and must be signed by a vet.

[Crazy Cocker Gang]

Im really not sure 

If they had the whole litter docked it would of been done illegally as I cant see any vet risking being struck off to dock a litter of show cockers, unless the parents worked and they could provide the evidience.

From what you do say tho it sound like this dock was possibly for health reasons and I dont know the laws surrounding such a young dog being docked I have only heard about older dogs having their tail amputated for health reasons.

If it is an illegal dock you really must get to the bottom of it, yes its rare and probably wont happen but you can be asked to produce your paperwork and you dog can be siezed if you cant.

I really dont know the law with regards to the relevent paperwork needed for a amputation for health and if the microchipping laws apply, I would contact your breeder and say unless you are given a vets number you will be contacting DEFRA

[hedgehog]

My vet asked to see Woody,s docking certificate (He was legally docked with the correct certification and from a working kennel) if I hadn't got it he says would have had to report it.

[Helen]

what's his pedigree?  Is he 100 percent show stock? 

All sounds very odd to me

[Geordietyke]

I have his pedigree certificate which shows his parents all the way to his great great great grandparents.  Many of the dogs have abbreviations (eg. JW, ShCm, SH CH, CH, IMP SWE, IMP FIN etc).  Can anyone tell me what these stand for please?   Also, on the conditions of sale document, it states that the KC registrations has been endorsed as R and X categories (Progeny not eligible for registration and Not eligible for the issue of an export pedigree).  It also states puppy sold as a PET ONLY. 

[loppylugs]

JW means the dog has achieved its Junior Warrant,ShCm means its  gained its certificate of merit,SH CH means its a SHOW CHAMPION,CH means its a full champion,i.e in the show ring & in the field.IMP SWE means its been imported from SWEDEN,likewise FINLAND.The endorsements are the same as what i put on my pups,I.E i dont want people breeding from a bitch i sell as a pet,nor taking my pups out of the country for resale.You said that the pup is sold as a PET ONLY,which is ok to do.
                     Hope this helps