getting aggression from other dogs

[tritonx]

Is is usual for a 10 month pup to almost always get growled down by other dogs? I've posted about this before and thought it would die down as Fraser learns to act appropriately with other dogs, but my daily walks leave a line of apologies from owners whose friendly dogs growl and snap at Fraser, apparently to their owners' surprise. He's still doing the full on approach, maybe a little less, and I would have thought by now he'd be more cautious in how he approaches other dogs, but no, it's creeping toward them, tail wagging madly and then bounce at them. He's constantly put down by bigger dogs and smaller ones skitter away. The dog next door snarled at him through the fence when Fraser ran down with happy play face, back end a-wriggle and signaling intention to greet and play. I'm puzzled that Fraser isn't getting the message about careful approaches and why his clear play behaviour is rejected by other dogs. He frequently yelps when he gets growl/snapped at though I haven't seen any injuries on him. My little guy is so hopeful all the time that it makes me feel sorry for him and a bit worried he'll get hurt. Is this usual? A matter of waiting it out?

[Mez]

how do you and the other owners react when it happens? do you intervein at all?

[Pip and Co]

Sounds unusual to me - most older dogs are tolerant of puppies!

I have Pip who is 4 and Lulu (her daughter) who is nearly 5 months, Pip will never correct Lulu's bad behaviour and lets her bite and jump on her so Lulu is not learning 'doggy etiquette' very quickly, I am finding when she is over the top and/or puppy bites other unfamiliar dogs she gets a growl and that's about it which leaves her looking very shocked - you literally see this confused look come very her face and she just looks at them thinking so strange my mother doesn't do that 

The yelping but no injuries you describe, in my opinion, is a Cocker thing they can make a big 'vocal' deal out of things - my 2 do anyway.

I'm sure other, more helpful posters, than me will come along  .  I'm just wondering could he be getting a worse reaction than Lulu as he's a boy?

[Karma]

Sounds unusual to me - most older dogs are tolerant of puppies!

At 10 months, Fraser will not be considered a puppy by other dogs... he will have lost his puppy license and it is very normal for a dog at that age to be told off a lot - especially if he doesn't learn from his lessons and keeps going back for more.  It is an important stage of growing up, as Fraser will gradually be learning all sorts of doggie etiquette (though it doesn't sound like he's a quick learner!).
I wouldn't worry about the yelps - as Pip and Co says, Cockers can sound like they're being killed very easily!!! 

It will get better - if it is otherwise friendly dogs who are showing him the way, he isn't going to be hurt by this, and will grow up to be a very considerate adult dog!! 

[Sarah.H]

Agree with Karma  . Charlie got told off lots for the same thing, and then when he was a bit older again he got told off lots for trying to hump every other male dog he met  . Do you do anything to try and teach Fraser a bit of self control around other dogs? Don't know if you go to training classes but they are great to get your dog used to being around others but not overly interacting.

[tritonx]

In response to how other owners and I react, they usually pull their dog away and apologize for the dog's manners. I also pull Fraser away as to me it looks like an unsuccessful meeting and I don't now what else to do.  It's hard to know until the growling and snapping is underway whether it's just autowarning or more serious. There was a dog a couple of days ago that looked as though he was going into a full on attack before his owner pulled him off. Very intense and quite scary. And yes, he does the Italian football player drama whenever he even thinks he might get hurt, but gets over it immediately. Fraser went to 3 sets of puppy classes before Christmas where he pirouetted on his leash, trying to get to the other dogs and basically was unable to focus on the tasks for the joys of nearby pups. I'm not sure how to teach him to approach other dogs calmly. I've looked around the behaviour boards, but perhaps didn't use the right keywords on my search as I didn't find anything that seemed to apply.

[Sarah.H]

Perhaps talk to the trainer that ran the puppy classes and see if you can do some one to one sessions? The trainer will have dogs of her own that can be used as stooge dogs so you won't have to worry about disrupting a class full of other dog owners  . I would think that clicker training would help to reward any calm behaviour. Millie used to go mental when she caught sight of the chickens and ducks where I work so I dids lots of clicker training around them getting her to look calmly at them and then focus back on me. You need to start at a fair distance away though as once they get too worked up you'll really struggle.

[Sarah1985]

Do you know any dogs that will calmly tell him off (no actual aggression just warning noises) and refuse to play until he does?

My dog used to be the same and he seemed to learn much quicker. Looking back my friend has a dog that completely refuses to play with puppies (no such thing as a puppy licience as far as shes concerned  ) and he went too far in terms of excitablilty she just used to curl her lip at him and quietly growl. After a few meeting Dexter come to the conclusion that she wasnt a potenial playmate and said a calm hello and then ignored her and went off to do his own thing. At this point my friends dog launched a friendly play session and gave him what he wanted. They now play fine because hes come to the conclusion play needs to be on the other dogs terms and not just about what he wants.

Its the sort of thing that is best taught by another dog but its finding the right dog.    I got very lucky. Id speak to your trainer. They may know of a suitable stooge. I still get called in for nervous/shy dogs as my oldest is very good at getting shy dogs to come out and play.

 

[Helen]

maybe he's still continuing because you interrupt the interaction each time? Once he yelps does the adult dog stop?  My adult cocker will tell off rude dogs, especially adolescent males but it never escalates - and I do let him do it as I firmly believe dogs speak 'dog' better than we do.

It sounds like he thinks he's still a puppy and needs more socialisation

It's hard to tell what the interaction is because we can't see what's happening but I would probably call a trainer...also if he's on the lead then this could be contributing to the problem  

[Marialh]

I probably won't be able to help out too much with advice, but I have the same problem with Bracken as you do with Fraser. Bracken is 7 months old and still at the licky-face-roll-over-sniff-butt-licky-licky stage with all dogs!

However, I don't intervene unless the other dog is on a lead and so far have been lucky in meeting understanding owners and dogs that aren't too aggressive.

One black lab told Bracken off in no uncertain terms, he yelped (owner was horrified, I was pleased Bracken was being taught mannners  ) and ever since he's been treating the lab with cautious respect. Another dog romps with him and then growls when he pushes it too far... the owner and I just let them play and Bracken is starting to be a little less licky with him.

I'm actually grateful for dogs that discipline Bracken, because it's cutting down on the amount of time I spend running around like a lunatic, ball in one hand, squeaky toy in the other attempting to distract him 

[Sarah1985]

I probably won't be able to help out too much with advice, but I have the same problem with Bracken as you do with Fraser. Bracken is 7 months old and still at the licky-face-roll-over-sniff-butt-licky-licky stage with all dogs!

However, I don't intervene unless the other dog is on a lead and so far have been lucky in meeting understanding owners and dogs that aren't too aggressive.

One black lab told Bracken off in no uncertain terms, he yelped (owner was horrified, I was pleased Bracken was being taught mannners  ) and ever since he's been treating the lab with cautious respect. Another dog romps with him and then growls when he pushes it too far... the owner and I just let them play and Bracken is starting to be a little less licky with him.

I'm actually grateful for dogs that discipline Bracken, because it's cutting down on the amount of time I spend running around like a lunatic, ball in one hand, squeaky toy in the other attempting to distract him 

Id make sure you ask if its ok with the owners before letting the dogs tell each other off. My friend has a dog with aggression issues so she is leaded all the time. However people constantly let their dogs run over to her. When they do the owners all cry "dont worry he needs telling" but that doesnt help when my friends worked soo hard to stop the agression and shes got other dogs running over. Its fear based aggression and other dogs running over can really upset her. Her dog really isnt the dog for them to learn some manner from and you never can tell.

[Karma]

Which, I assume, is why marialh said she does intervene if the other dog is on-lead.... 

I 100% agree with what Livercake said earlier.

In general dogs are very much the best teachers, and people really shouldn't intervene unless it is absolutely necessary... the best way to intervene is to just walk away... normally this helps to diffuse the situation.
By the owners pulling their dog away when they tell your pup off, he isn't learning that his behaviour is inappropriate.  Dogs are far better at reading dog body language than people are...

We often meet 2 gorgeous chocolate labs on our walks....  they are litter brothers and are about 9 months old now.  One is very much bouncier than the other, and I was talking to the owner the other day about them losing their puppy licence.... we saw him again after that and he said how true it was - the bouncier one especially was getting told off loads... (He only needs to look at Honey, and she gives him a warning bark, before she then plays... whereas the other, who is still very confident, Honey has never needed to tell off at all!)... he said the bouncier one had even been pinned to the ground by a dog who'd had enough of his rudeness... but it's the way he will learn...    

There are some times when you have to intervene in doggie interactions.... is a bouncy puppy is pestering a very old dog, if either dog is becoming stressed or anxious by the interaction... or if one (or more) dogs seem to be bullying another.... but generally dogs do best when left to police their own interactions... 

[tritonx]

The reassurance that things are still normal for the stage Fraser's at is largely why I post and the replies here have clarified my mind. The walks in parks where I live are all on leash so the interactions I've described are on leash occasions. From the answers it's clear I'll have to focus on socialization and find mature, friendly adult dogs to teach him. Going to phone the trainer and see if she can suggest something that will fit the bill. Thanks once again for the advice and reassurance. It seems to take a tribe to raise a pup