Is there any way back?

[Lis]

I have not posted about Dora for a while and although we have had our ups and downs, generally I felt that progress was being made.  We managed to visit a friend with a 5 month lab without incident (although we eventually left as I was convinced Dors was about to attack the puppy after approx 3/4 hours together - I can at least recognise the signs) and we also visited another friend without dogs and she was fine and relaxed.  Cut to the last few days - Dora has attacked my parents cocker 3 times despite a 4/5 month amnesty and worse still, she bit a child.  The child was a friend of my brothers (aged 12).  He did not provoke her in any way, in fact he wasnt even near her when she charged.  She did mark his stomach but I do not know whether this was tooth or claw as in the few seconds she had she did seem to be biting his stomach and although he was not bleeding there was blood on the surface.  I cannot put into words how this made me feel but needless to say there were tears (although the little boy concerned was very brave).I have lived with Dora for nearly three years and feel I know her pretty well.  In my mind she is not reacting to external stimulus.  It appears to be a change that comes over her internally.  It is almost like a darkness comes over her, my sweet little pooch completely looses control and does not know what she is doing.  This is never clearer  than when she is with Alf (mum's cocker).  They get on like a house on fire, then she will suddenly become very still and fixated on him and will then launch with no trigger.  I seperate them and she almost seems shocked by what she has done and will go over and sniff as if she does not know what has happened.  Alf is constantly sniffing her butt as if he is checking to see what mood she is in.  Sometimes he will then carry on as normal and othertimes his body language will change and he will go to great lengths to avoid her.  This is almost always followed by an attack.  I feel like there is some kind of change in her chemistry (does that sound mad?).  I think she bit the child as her adrenaline levels were already up from the attacks on Alfie.  I now feel at my wits end.  She has already bitten one person and I told myself that if she ever did it again I could not keep her.  Now she has bitten a child I feel like I have a duty to stop it happening again but I just can't contemplate doing the unthinkable.  Do I keep her under lock and key?  I have gone down the behaviourist route.  She has been to classes.  She has been on zylkene (no obvious difference).  We have used a dap diffuser and she has been tested at the vets for thyroid problems (which the vet was reluctant to as she has none of the physical signs but we insisted).  I just really don't know what I should be doing - I love her so much but in my view she has serious mental problems. Should anyone manage to read to the bottom of this please share your thoughts :_(

[wrenside]

Awww so sorry to hear this 
Maybe for the moment you should look into getting a muzzle for her when you're going to be around other dogs and children, just to keep everyone safe from being bitten.
I would have a good chat with a certified dog behaviourist to investigate your little girls behaviour, sometimes you need an outside opinion to identify subtle triggers. TopBarks on the forum is a fab dog trainer and I'm sure could help put you in touch with somebody or help give you some advice himself.

Lots of hugs to you and Dora   

Mary xxx

[SkyeSue]

Awww so sorry to hear this 
Maybe for the moment you should look into getting a muzzle for her when you're going to be around other dogs and children, just to keep everyone safe from being bitten.
I would have a good chat with a certified dog behaviourist to investigate your little girls behaviour, sometimes you need an outside opinion to identify subtle triggers. TopBarks on the forum is a fab dog trainer and I'm sure could help put you in touch with somebody or help give you some advice himself.

Lots of hugs to you and Dora   

Mary xxx

Couldn't agree more. I am so sorry to read this, it must be really distressing for you, but I'm sure Tob Barks would be able to point you in the direction of a really good behaviourist...pm him, or his contact details are on his signature. He's always happy to help if he can.

[Top Barks]

really sorry to hear this.
Did you see anyone in the end Lis?

[Sarah1985]

I agree. You need to talk this through with a trained behavorist and ask them for their honest opinion. Let them witness the behaviour (if possible) and give them as much information as you can. Make sure you talk through Whether you have tried absolutely every option avilable and what options you have left. Dog aggressiion maybe something that you feel you can manage but I personally would be assessing whether a dog thats biting people is something I can cope with (im not  sure that it is).

Its such a shame. If you feel that the only thing you can do is let her go Please dont think this is anything thats you've done wrong. Some dogs (like people) have pyschologic problems that cant be fixed.

[Lis]

Thanks for your kind thoughts - means alot.  Dora was assessed by a behaviourist who produced a comprehensive report and did follow up sessions. Her conclusion was that Dors felt she was being put in the position of pack leader when she did not have the confidence to back it up.  Although I do not buy into this, giving Dors more of a routine and boundaries did seem to help although ultimately the last few days have proven that the extreme behaviour has not really been curtailed.  There may be subtle triggers that I can't see but we really have removed all the obvious ones - they are not fed together and they are not allowed any toys in the others company.  Otherwise they are walked, trained, sleep and play together and have seemingly been very happy together in the last few months.  We really thought that we were past this "phase" and we were so very happy about it - my one wish is for Dora to be happy and well adjusted.  She pretty much went for the little boy on his arrival in the house - she has always barked at visitors who are under strict instructions to ignore her but she has not followed through.  It has taken me so long to get my confidence back after the last incident that I now feel a bit of a nervous wreck.  I did not want to go down the muzzle route as I thought this would be yet another bad association with visitors in Doras mind.  I guess if I trial it when no-one is around with some lovely rewards we can counter this.  I know I cannot risk her hurting anyone else.  Is there a particular make/brand you could recommend?

Mark if there is anything you can do to help I really am willing to try anything/go to any lengths.   

[Sarah1985]

I personally dont supscribe to the dominance theory and I thought alot of modern dog trainers dont either. Was this an ADPT trainer? It maybe worth getting a second opinion. Are their any other trainers you can give a try?

[Hurtwood Dogs]

I'm so sorry .

I can't offer any advice but if it helps your research, as a youngster (up to say 18 months old) my current cocker used to freeze when guarding something (food or toys) before he'd attack - he's grown out of it and been trained out of it. I'm not saying he's the same as Dora but I just wanted you to know that the freezing (which I've also seen other dogs do) does suggest to me that she knows what she's doing rather than unaware of what she's doing and is possibly reacting to something quite complex rather than this being random attacks.

It's a shame the behaviourist has gone down the 'pack theory' route, sounds like a cop out to me

[Karma]

Agree with Hannah - both on the fact that the freezing indicates the presence of a trigger (however subtle!) and that the behaviourist's "pack theory" assessment is pretty much a cop out. 

As far as a muzzle goes, no recommendations as far as make/type, but the way you introduce it will be crucial to whether Dora sees it as a negative association or not.
When you have one, let her sniff it and reward any interest she shows in it... gradually progress to feeding treats through the muzzle, so she voluntarily puts her muzzle in the muzzle... only when she is 100% happy doing this should you progress to doing the muzzle up... 

It also sounds like visitors arriving is a big trigger for Dora - would it be possible to keep her behind a baby gate while visitors arrive and get settled then let her out to meet them... Honey is terrible with some visitors to ours, but is a lot better if we keep her out of the way while they come in then let her come through. 

[JennyBee]

My Barney used to have some really bad behavioural problems and would often attack with no other warning but a slight freeze beforehand. He was a guarder, but also had arthritis and very poor eyesight which I think contributed a lot to his problems. I know you have had Dora at the vets but has she had her eyesight tested and a full check over?

I was only a teenager with Barney and my parents were not experienced dog owners, our vet unfortunately told us that Barney had dominance problems and handed us a sheet - which was more than useless in helping us. He was always kept in the kitchen when we had visitors, and never allowed near children under any circumstances. We managed to handle his behaviour quite successfully over the years, but there was the occasional slip up .

I really hope you manage to find a solution with Dora, I know just how hard it is having a dog that you know is capable of injuring someone .

[lindseyp]

I agree. You need to talk this through with a trained behavorist and ask them for their honest opinion. Let them witness the behaviour (if possible) and give them as much information as you can. Make sure you talk through Whether you have tried absolutely every option avilable and what options you have left. Dog aggressiion maybe something that you feel you can manage but I personally would be assessing whether a dog thats biting people is something I can cope with (im not  sure that it is).

Its such a shame. If you feel that the only thing you can do is let her go Please dont think this is anything thats you've done wrong. Some dogs (like people) have pyschologic problems that cant be fixed.

so sad but very true   

I don't have any advice to give you Lis, as I'm not experienced/knowledgable enough but your post is so sad & moving that I just wanted to say I'm sorry & send you a    I'm praying for a miracle for your very special girl Dora & really hope you find the answers to help her 

[Top Barks]

Lis, I would be looking to employ the services of a member of The APBC to help you get to the bottom of this.
They won't give you any twaddle about dominance and are all suitably qualified and very experienced.

If you need to condition a muzzle

 The muzzle I often use for cockers is a Baskerville size 6 which can be bought from larger pet stores or on line from The Company of Animals.

You need to introduce the muzzle using food in a non-threatening way when she is calm and happy.
The way I would do this to try to associate the muzzle with things Dora likes.

§   Reward her for looking at it.
§   Reward her for moving towards it.
§   Reward her for touching it with her own muzzle.
§   Reward her as you fasten the clip on the strap.
§   Reward her as you take it off.
§   You might as we tried putting food in the muzzle on the floor and letting her eat out of it.

Let her wear it for short periods and make this a rewarding experience for her by feeding really good treats when you put it on and take it off.
These treats could be things like roast beef chicken or cheese cut up into small cubes.
The trick is to find out what she likes best and use that.

[clairep4]

So sorry to hear you are having these problems. I would definitely muzzle her for everyone's safety.

One thing I'd like to suggest as well is having her looked at by a McTimoney Chiropractor to make sure all is okay with her back. If a dog's Atlas is out (where the neck joins the skull) it can affect their vision as the optic nerves run through that area, and it can make dogs be more reactive because it affects things like their ability to recognise silhouettes (eg they may have only just seen someone and then they come back in the room and react as if it's a complete stranger). Back problems can have a big impact on behaviour as I know from Zorro - he may not show that he's in any pain at all but he gets very reactive to Bella (and alot of other stuff too) when his back is rickety so it's worth thinking about.


90% of the time aggression is triggered by fear but it can often be that a series of things have added up to the point where the dog reacts in this way (a bit like us having one of those really bad days and then going home, knocking a glass of water over and completely hitting the roof - it's not the glass of water that was the problem, it's the culmination of all the other stuff, so you need to bear that in mind - sounds like you are already though  ).

It might be worth keeping a diary of her day to day routines so you can start to try and figure out what little things might be adding up for her. Hope you can get a good behaviourist and get to the bottom of it, it's a horrible situation...

[Lis]

Thank you so much for all your kind thoughts and suggestions.  I can feel myself regrouping already! Karma I think a baby gate is an excellent idea - we are about to move to a much bigger house and I could set this up so that dora can see visitors enter but cannot get to them.  I have noticed she is worse when she doesn't see someone come in (for example if i bring her into the house after they have arrived) so this could be the best of both worlds - look but don't touch.  Maybe once she is calm she can then circulate with the muzzle.  Mark - we move to Surrey on the 9th July and I will try and contact a member of APBC - they all seem to have different letters after their name so if there is anything I should be looking for, be grateful if you could let me know.

I am reassured by what you have to say about freezing - it does make sense when you put it that way.  I did have her eyes tested but this just seemed to involve looking into her eyes with a torch - maybe there is something more thorough I could ask for - Claire I will definitely look into the McTimoney chiropractor, thank you.  I can relate to the glass of water myself right now!

Keeping a diary is a great idea.  I was wondering if there is some kind of cycle going on.  One trainer did suggest it may be to do with being spayed early and suggested some herbal remedy - are spayed girlies still subject to the same mood swings as non-spayed?

Thanks again - this forum is invaluable to me and I hope to post some good news as we make progress.

[Karma]

Glad to hear you are feeling more positive.
I can certainly back up what Claire has said about a McTimoney Chiropracter.  We saw one after Honey showed some strange reactions to T-Touch treatment.  She found some stress across her back and showed me how to massage the muscles in the area to help.  We saw a marked improvement in her tolerance of other dogs after the treatment and now, if I find she's being rather intolerant I check her back and 9 times out of 10 it is spasming again...