Clicker training experts disagree with Ian Dunbar...what do YOU think?

[SkyeSue]

I'm still digesting this, but thought I'd post it meanwhile....see what you think!

http://www.canis.no/ekurs/BC-dunbar-eng.html

[spanielcrazy]

Unfortunately I couldn't watch the video (would take forever to download  ) but I did read it and also went on Ian Dunbars facebook page to see the discussion but would like to comment: I agree with Dr. Dunbar: Yes, you can talk to your dog and they do understand! Of course it is not completely in English, it is a combination of body language (human and canine), calming signals, touch and English.

As a groomer, I have had so much success with..erm..behaviourally challenged dogs by using the above. Just slowing my movement down just a bit, using calming signals such as lip licking and yawning (yes, I'm sure I look like a looney  ) steady patterned movements with my hands and clippers, continual touch, and explaining, in English, what I am doing at every step of the way, coupled with lots of praise for good behaviour. It's hard to explain in writing but it does work.

True, there is a fine line between blathering continuously at the dog ,which so many people do, with the result that the dog tunes out. When clients come in, I hear them in the other room "Sit-sit-down-sit-no-come here-stop it--sit--down" No wonder the dog doesn't listen, which is it? Sit? Down? Come here? All with no praise for any one of the above being done!  They do listen but they soon quit when nothing important is being said!

[Crazy Cocker Gang]

I agreed with Dr Dunbar to.

I do use a ah ah noise but tend to use it to get the dogs attention and then ask for a incompatible behaviour to the "bad" behaviour they were displaying so i can reward that.

I dont use the word no as I dont think it gives my dogs enough information and is too general.

Im not a computer and of course do at times say ah ah/ pack it in and dont redirect but my dogs do get the jist that i want them to stop what they are doing.

My dogs also have a non reward marker that comunicates to them when i think something i have asked for isnt good enough.

I do agree that clickers although a great tool are not the be all and end all of dog training and there are some things i never use the clicker to teach I use my voice and body language.

I agree with spanielcrazy that voice can have a big influence on a dogs reactions particulary in situations where they are stressed.

I do talk to my dogs (quite a lot  ) but they are intelligent enough to know the difference between me blathering and me training them.

Personally I DONT want to train like a computer and I dont think it improves our relationship with our dogs or respects them as individuals. How can training be fun if someone is just stood there clicking 

Jack would rather have a "good boy" then ten clicks and treats and brie would rather have a big cuddle and told shes a princess  those words mean something to them and are just as much of a marker as a click. I could click before I say them but I dont really see a reason to as to me its just more natural. I deliberatley get my dogs to associate praise and verbal markers with their actions as personally i think it improved their bond with me and makes training more interactive.

Sorry if I interpreted what was being said wrong its late and I skim read the articale while listening to the video and playing with seth (while telling him what a clever boy he was).

[Black Red + Yellow]

Hard for me to comment - I've never used Clicker Training - not sure I would either as don't feel the need to but I know it can be done with great success

I do think that every dog needs a different approach as stated by Crazy Cocker Gang...her two prefer completely different 'praises'.  We find that too....Finn likes an understated good boy and a little hip rub (he reverses in!)....Alfie likes to really know you are pleased with a few whoop whoops......Willow likes a treat (she's a lab!).

Dogs have smooth corners so we have to bend and weave all the time...yes you have to be consistent but we all need flexibility in our life   I do firmly believe that most of the time when a dog does something wrong, it's because of a lack of correct direction from the owner, obviously not deliberately but that we should think about what just happened before we decide whether they deserve a praise

Now I'm just blathering away....hope the dogs aren't listening

[Top Barks]

personally i see both sides to this having credence and for me it is striking a balance between both points of view.
Do i think dogs would learn  more effectively if we trained more like computers? then i guess in some situations and for some dogs yes but as both agreed we are not computers.When shaping I do tend to keep completely quiet and let my clicker do the precise communication I need to convey to the dog.
I'm happy with the way I train andlike to think I have a balance i have regarding this issue that I'm happy with. could i be a more efficient and organised trainer if i put my mind to it and trained more like a computer? The answer is surely yes in some cases but on the other hand do i really want to? that's the human in me I guess
Sometimes we do say to much when training, the substance of which is often irrelevant to the dog but the tone of what you are saying and the postures and facial expressions made can go along way to relaxing the dog and making it an enjoyable experience for the dog.That is not something computers can do.
lets also not forget why we train dogs, we do it because we enjoy it, it builds a bond and relationship with the dog.

[Jessie_Pup]

I use clicker training for most of my training I do HTM with Jessie.    I know if I pick up the clicker she is all excited and ready to work.  I do freetime with Jessie and it is amazing watching her trying to workout different moves.   I know my best moves I have got with her is when doing freetime rather than luring.    I find clicker training just so much fun. I don't always use food sometimes it is a click and a toy.  For me it is one of the best things I have learnt about in dog training. 

[fifer]

I'm with Top Barks on this one.  There's a happy medium in everything, and good or bad training of any kind. 

Of course I've had dogs in who were clearly physically ill treated, but also sadly I have seen dogs with manic repetitive disorders (going to be controversial here) caused perhaps by bad or inappropriate clicker training?

Good training of any kind is to be applauded but not everyone has the knowledge or skill to use conventional or clicker training. 

[Top Barks]

I'm with Top Barks on this one.  There's a happy medium in everything, and good or bad training of any kind. 

Of course I've had dogs in who were clearly physically ill treated, but also sadly I have seen dogs with manic repetitive disorders (going to be controversial here) caused perhaps by bad or inappropriate clicker training?

Good training of any kind is to be applauded but not everyone has the knowledge or skill to use conventional or clicker training. 

I'd be interested to hear about repetetive disorders caused by clicker training

[fifer]

As all the dogs I get in have behavioural issues I don't encourage out of control behaviours (and don't have a video camera anyway) so have no "proof" other than the fact that those people who surrendered the dogs stated that they had indeed clicker trained them. 

Both dogs were very definitely obsessed by clicks (light switches etc) one spinning at every clicking sound and one at feeding times who'd been taught to hit a target before his feed, not once or twice but many times - the owner obviously thought it was amusing to get the dog wound up (at first) till he started bouncing off the walls continually.  Got round that by feeding him outside at first - no walls to bounce off! - then training a sit in a calm atmosphere before feeding and again every time he started bouncing.  Certainly I was advised at the time that this could have been untrained or retrained by responsible clicker training too.

Trying to calm these dogs down is very, very difficult, they have become obsessed, their behaviour is compulsive, they no longer need the original "cue" and trying to discover what starts them off is difficult.  They may well be highly driven anyway and illogical training makes the dog obsessive.

I've also had naturally occurring cases (if you can call p/f cases "natural") of OCD as many rescues do, shadow/light chasers are the most tragic to watch, but these others are very different.

Unfortunately any idiot can buy a clicker but not everyone could or should use them. 

[clairep4]

Personally I think anyone (with or without a clicker) can inadvertently train their dogs to have behaviours they perhaps don't actually want.

I agree that you do need accuracy to clicker train properly but the behaviours you describe sound to me as though there was a fair amount of other stuff going on for these dogs as they sound very stressed (which makes learning extremely difficult even with a clicker).

Personally I use a clicker with my clients fairly regularly in combination with TTouch, esp for marking neutral posture and soft eyes, and if I have a client dog who is very reactive then the clicker can help to start changing its associations with other dogs from negative to positive. The thing I like is that I can for example initially click the dog for looking at a stuffy (realistic toy dog) even if the posture is NOT neutral, as the click and treat begins to change things. Obviously I have to click before the dog escalates from looking to reacting, so timing is crucial, but I then build on it to teach the dog more appropriate responses.

I agree that accuracy is definitely the key and I will often hold the clicker during a session like this so that I can watch for appropriate behaviours and have
the client do the treats when I click.

Having said that, if I have a food-obsessed dog I am doing TTouch groundwork with I try to not use a clicker as I want the dog to be thinking about what it's doing, where it's placing its feet etc, rather than looking at me for the magic click all the time, and in those cases I use verbal praise as the reward. So, horses for courses I guess! :-)

[fifer]

Personally I think anyone (with or without a clicker) can inadvertently train their dogs to have behaviours they perhaps don't actually want.

I didn't say "inadvertently"!  These tricks were deliberately trained for; not everyone has good motives when training. 

[clairep4]

Personally I think anyone (with or without a clicker) can inadvertently train their dogs to have behaviours they perhaps don't actually want.

I didn't say "inadvertently"!  These tricks were deliberately trained for; not everyone has good motives when training. 

Sorry - my misunderstanding      But do you not think then that it's the person doing the training rather than the method (i.e. they could train the dogs silly things with or without the clicker)?