Guarding Behaviours

[jasper_boy]

Jacob is 2 years old in Feb and is firmly in adolescent cocker boy stage    he guards a lot (from the other dogs not from his humans) and its generally manageable without any major problems.

However, in the last 6 months he has started to growl at the other dogs when he wants attention from his humans, when they want attention from his humans (well, their humans as well!) and when they walk into a room that he is settled in.

(quick background - I live in this house with my housemate and we have 2 packs of dogs, totalling 9. I have 5 - 3 cockers and 2 crosses, housemate has 4 collies all of whom are deaf and two are also blind. 8 of the dogs mix when either one of us are out (1 of mine is fear aggressive so only mixes with a few of the dogs when I am home) and then when both of us are home they separate into 2 packs quite happily. The dogs are rarely left (due to Jasper's needs) but can occasionally be left for up to 4 hours quite happily)

For people who don't know Jacob has had 2 new hips this year, also has a break in one of his knees, has ongoing dislocation issues in his other knee and has spinal pain from disc detoritation. He is on daily metacam and tramadol but still experiences pain and discomfort during the day.

So, I do have to take that slightly into consideration....

Recently his growling has increased and he has started to lunge across the room and bite the other dogs on their face. He isn't told off for growling, but seeing as 4 of the dogs are deaf, they are totally missing this signal and its causing some issues. Dilys, who is blind and deaf 5 year old, gets bitten the most. If you were into pack theory (which I am not) she would be the alpha bitch and will tell the others off as appropriate. She currently isn't reacting to Jacob and stands still for us to remove him from her space but I can see that its not improving and I don't want anything to escalate.

Things I have done so far:

Removed Jacob's crate from the living room as this was a major guarding issue for him
I dont give Jacob any attention when I first come into the living room
Jacob isn't allowed into the living room before the other dogs (he would lay in wait for them by the door and bite them!)
Put more beds into the living space
Verbally telling Jacob and what other dog he is glaring at that they are good and offering shared praise
Verbally asking Jacob to move if I see him stiffen (he stiffens before moving to bite)
Distracting Jacob if I can see him stiffen (either with toys, or me getting up, etc)

All of these have made some difference but he is still doing it. Unfortunately, I just totally over reacted as he bit Dilys and Vixen within seconds of each other and I yelled at him. Totally wrong thing to do I know.

Any other suggestions as to what else I can try? I can't carry treats on me due to Jasper's dementia (long story!) He doesn't do this with every dog, seems to be Vixen (my wimpy bitch), Mabel (blind/deaf collie who is his best mate in play), Jasper (oldie cocker), Della (very nervy and skitty deaf collie) and Dilys (blind/deaf collie). He doesn't do it to Piper (cocker who is generally untrusive), Lassie (deaf collie who again isn't in his face) and Bee (fear aggressive cross breed who would start a fight if he attempted to bite her).

[seaangler]

If you read urgent help a lot of what you can do is in the post as to guarding..best of luck...

[jasper_boy]

If you read urgent help a lot of what you can do is in the post as to guarding..best of luck...

Thanks, I had read that thread already. The situation is quite different (or maybe it isn't and I am not seeing it that way as I am too involved?) so I was looking for advice on what next step I could take from what I am already doing 

[seaangler]

Just type in Guarding behaviors in u tube...

I dare not say as to how i would do it (ill end up arguing or some one will say that's wrong) after all i have done it with my dogs for over forty five years with no issues what so ever..

In fact we have hand bags with Peggy and gemma to night..but we did not do any thing about as Peggy is coming into season and she keep building nest and guarding her little piggy

Any way best of luck what ever you decide to do..And also hope you find a solution to the behaviour....Chris

[black taz]

not much use in response to your request for help - but reading your post as made me feel quite inadequate.  You seem to have so much on your plate managing so many dogs with various disabilities - good on you, and i hope someone can help soon.

Given so many dogs though, i wonder if it would be best to get someone in to see them in person just on the off chance that they pickup something you have missed.

[jasper_boy]

not much use in response to your request for help - but reading your post as made me feel quite inadequate.  You seem to have so much on your plate managing so many dogs with various disabilities - good on you, and i hope someone can help soon.

Given so many dogs though, i wonder if it would be best to get someone in to see them in person just on the off chance that they pickup something you have missed.

Thanks but no need to feel inadequate, they aren't difficult to manage to be honest. You just learn to slightly adapt 

Unfortunately no way we can get someone in for a few reasons. But mainly, we got the best behaviourist in when we first moved in as the bitches just couldn't mix (I was also fostering 3 puppies at the time so couldn't risk them getting hurt) and the main response was to put Dilys to sleep as she wouldn't have survived in the wild  hate to say it, but Jasper (oldie cocker) couldn't survive without anyone putting his meals down for him  and he can see and hear!! but after a few months things settled down without following that awful advice! (I am sure that PennyB can confirm how happy/norty Dilys is!!)

[lindseyp]

Only a thought but could Jaspers medication not be managing his pain levels adequately at the mo, causing his behaviour changes or could there be a change in his condition at all .......he's been through so much bless him & in some ways IMO his behaviour is understandable   

Have to say though - well done you on managing a group of dogs, with so many individual needs & disabilities but maintaining such harmony among them all - tis not always easy but possible, as you demonstrate so well   

[Karma]

I would definately get a review of medication to see if pain is a route cause.  Honey is very guardy with other dogs - I can highly recommend the book "Fight" by Jean Donaldson - it's the only one I've come across that addresses guarding between dogs (and you're right, it's a very different issue to guarding against humans!). 

One thing the behaviourist recommended for us was to have Honey on a lead, and another stooge dog (with human) also on lead about a metre away.  First of all, owners to just treat their own dog, then set dogs in sit, walk to each others dog and treat, return to own dogs and treat.  If needbe for you dog, increase the distance to a tolerable level, and tether dogs so that they don't break the sits... gradually build up so that dogs are sat side by side receiving treats.... (word of warning, though, Honey would behave impeccably throughout the training set-up and then round on the other dog once we'd finished, so we started moving Honey away with treats before ending the exercise.

It's definatley worth getting a behaviourist to observe and advise, as there may well be a lot of subtle body language at play - but the above exercise is something that can be done to hopefully improve things in the meantime (and at very least will do no harm as long as you keep it within your dog's comfort levels....).  It does sound like your past experience with a behaviourist was awful - is there no-one else that would be able to come out... sometimes even the "best" behaviourists aren't right for the individual concerned...

[jasper_boy]

Thanks Karma 

Jacob is in pain but looking at the glint in his eye, I do think that this is also cocker nortiness 

The whole pack are absolutely fine with food and treats and will do joint training sessions without any issues at all. Jacob prefers group training to individual training (he gets both) as he will watch and copy the others without having to think for himself!

These episodes are not constant or everytime. He just tried to guard a pillow from the others, I removed the pillow with no growling aimed at me, asked him to go to another bed in a different part of the room and he lay down and went to sleep. But I am just aware that sometime he is very quick and the biting is happening before I can change the situation.

[jasper_boy]

Just bumping this up incase anyone else has any other thoughts on what I could try 

[Top Barks]

have there been any injuries to any of the dogs?

[jasper_boy]

have there been any injuries to any of the dogs?

Nope. He doesn't take it that far. He isn't trying to start a fight, he seems to be warning them. When I am watching (no dogs were injured during the watching!!) he is definitely guarding something (me, the room, a pillow, a space around him, etc its never the same thing but is usually something that he wants himself) and he will bite and hold.

Pain wise has improved in the last 2 weeks (no hydro or physio due to the holidays and he seems to be in less pain with missing the sessions) and we have probably only had this type of guarding maybe 3 or 4 times each week.

[Top Barks]

Ian Dunbar asked the same question at an aggression seminar to a guy who stood up and told him his dogs had  had around 20 fights.
his answer was the same as yours
Dunbar then said you ain't got a problem, which shocked me.
Another guy also stood up and said his dogs had two fights and on both occasions treatment by a vet was needed for one or both dogs.
This time he said you DO! have a problem.
I think personally you are taking responsible precautions and it really would be impossible to advise on such a complex case with any certainty.
My lot growl at each other all the time, guard from each other all the time, even stiffen and snap at each other but i do not see it as an issue unless damage is done.
I think your case is complicated by the number of dogs and their various ailments and I really would put more than a slight consideration on this factor.
Have you had a behaviour adviser in to look at your situation? If you are concerned that things will escalate I would take this course sooner rather than later.

Edited to add, just read your earlier posts Dominique, who did you see initially? PM me if you prefer.

[jasper_boy]

Shall pm you in a sec Mark 

I honestly don't think Jacob will take it further, its if the other dogs get fed up of it and snap back and a fight starts. I am praising every positive interaction he has with the others and am starting to do small time outs after incidents (if I haven't managed to distract on seeing his body language change) and so far he is looking at me for the praise rather than growling.

I do similar with Bee (FA terrier cross) who has management issues with her personal space and needs a good metre space from other dogs. If Dilys goes towards her and into her personal space, Bee will now look at me for positive praise and I will remove Dilys from her space. Unfortunately if I am not quick enough (I have roughly 5-8 seconds to do this in) Bee will attack and it has resulted in a number of vet vists for Dilys. Because Dilys if blind/deaf I am unable to call her or she is unable to see the warning growls so it is definitely made worse by her disabilities. Whereas with Vixen (who isn't blind or deaf but is generally just a madam and stirs things up!) I will call her away from Bee's personal space and she will instantly move and Bee has never attacked her. For safety, Bee and Dilys now are never in the same room together unless I am stood up doing something (but not distracted so can monitor behaviour changes) so are probably in the same room maybe a handful number of times a week (this has been for 4 years now and no incidents in that time, so fab!)

Sorry, am just rambling now