6 month pups constant biting

[Karma]

Liamsmum, you are giving out VERY dangerous advise.

Dominance theory has been scientifically disproven, depsite the number of old-school trainers and TV "experts" who like to tell us otherwise.
Have a read of this page for a very coherent explanation of why it just doesn't work - http://k9domain.org/alpha_theory.aspx

The only time a rolled up newspaper should be used in training a puppy is to hit the owner over the head when they go wrong (that is a rough quote from our puppy training handouts from when Honey was a pup).

I'm glad none of your dogs have had problems caused by your approach to biting and possessiveness - I know our dog is NOT bold at all, and any treatment that you describe would have created a timebomb in her.  She has guarding tendencies which are completely managable BECAUSE she trusts us.  If that wasn't the case, she would certainly have bitten our daughter by now.  

Yes, you need to be able to take things from dogs - but this is something that it is safer to train than to demand...

The dog training school I help at have older puppies/adult dogs coming in all the time with significant behaviour issues, and the most common phrase the behaviourists hear is "I don't understand why he's like this - we've done everything we were meant to do to be a strong pack leader" (or words to that effect).  It's not about letting your dogs rule you, it's about working with them to achieve the behaviour you expect.

At no point has anyone on this thread said "just put up with it" - what has been given is kind, effective techniques to manage and reduce any biting/mouthing while allowing the pup to learn bite inhibition.... and if I ever have to deal with a frightened adult dog I would far prefer to deal with a dog who has good control of the strength of his bite but who might growl and warn me how he was feeling well before he even got to thinking of biting me, then a dog who's had his biting/growling tendencies repressed by coersive measures who will bypass the growl and the nip, as that's got him hit with a newspaper before, so goes straight to taking a chunk out of me.  

[Sharon]

Thankfully I've never had a pup that was bitey - well Skye did for about 5 days, then stopped, of all the years we've had dogs, not once have I ever tapped, smacked, used a newspaper on them - like I've never smacked any of our children.

Makes me cringe thinking about it.  

[liamsmum]

I would never hit a dog over the head and I do my dogs do give on command and are trained to do so just as liam is going to puppy school and learnig this now but aloowing you dog to draw blood isnt going to get you any where. IMO which I would not wish to force on any one.

[8 Hairy Feet]

Is this the same puppy class
where the "trainer" uses choke
chains because if it is I think
you need to change classes.

[seaangler]

No way on this earth would I
smack a puppy with a newspaper
I'm sorry if you disagree and futhermore
I don't believe in your theory of
"being Alpha"
steffxxx

Just have a look at this link from the kennal club of great Britain... http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=3646&d=pg_dtl_art_news&h=238&f=0

And then go down to (training the spaniel) and open(the down load)(it is safe)..once open look down to the third paragrath....And see what it says...

I know its for gun dogs...But after all they are all pack animals......Chris

[Jane S]

Just have a look at this link from the kennal club of great Britain... http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=3646&d=pg_dtl_art_news&h=238&f=0

And then go down to (training the spaniel) and open(the down load)(it is safe)..once open look down to the third paragrath....And see what it says...

I know its for gun dogs...But after all they are all pack animals......Chris

Just because you can find a link somewhere on the huge KC site which makes the (very much outdated) statement that "dogs are pack animals and you must be alpha" does not make this statement right - I'm sure we could all post thousands of links where more modern views are expressed. I'd go to the KC site for many things (genetics information, health tests results etc) but it would not be my first port of call for advice on behaviour or training!

Roll up a newspaper wrap an elastic band found it and when the puppy bites a firm tap with the rolled up paper and a firm NO. It wont hurt them and the noise from the paper warns them off. Dont worry if they a bit frightened they soon come back to you and then you make a fuss and give them lots of love reinforcing you are the alpha bitch/leader of the pack.

I have to agree with Karma that this is not the kind of approach we would want recommended on this forum which has a strong anti-aversive training ethic. Please note these guidelines from our Behaviour Board which applies equally to advice given on the Puppies Board:

please bear in mind that one of the main tenets of this site is to promote humane, positive, reward-based training methods and we are keen that this approach is reflected in any advice given by forum members. Whilst we don't wish to stifle healthy discussion, the welfare of our dogs comes first - so posts or links may be removed that advocate any inappropriate, confrontational or heavy handed methods that could be perceived as being physically or mentally damaging to our dogs and our relationship with them.

[Archie bean]

Blimey. Can open. Worms everywhere!  Just wanted to say thanks again for the positive advice and also point out that I certainly don't "put up" with Archie's biting. I'm using all the positive methods I can to teach him it isn't acceptable. He has no issues over guarding at all but he is a nervous dog and I don't want to do anything to make that worse. I know he and I will get there in the end, it's just great to know that I am not a complete failure because he hasn't quite got it yet. On the positive side my wrist is feeling better than I expected today and I can see the funny side now - I was, er, in the bathroom when it happened and let's just say  he was attempting to "help" me with my tights when the incident occurred. He got my wrist by mistake and it was me pulling away too quickly that pulled the tendon. He didn't actually leave a mark on me.

[ria-and-baxter]

Yes, big whoops on the can opening. Totally acccept that training methods will always be a big mix bag of personal preference, different models and theories changing over time etc...one of the reasons I don't post on forums much is due to strength of feeling of what works for individuals which can sometimes get whipped up...albeit not in this case, it has been a really useful debate so thanks again for the responses.

For me and my partner, we agreed when we got the pup that we didn't agree with or want to use aversive training methods and believe me, keeping to that when you have a little cockerdile clamped down on your ankle or hand has really tested that principle

I don't doubt the methods suggested work, and immediately so, but we personally don't want to use them. That said, I'm satisfied we're not just letting him bite us, I'm not a softy, standing there negotiating with him to let go of biting me. Interestingly he can mouth and reduce his force appropriately at other times. He doesn't mouth much now in any case but we worked with him on phasing out appropriately and he responds to 'gentle' or 'lick', reducing /stopping the contact completely. Our problem is that for whatever reason, he just isn't refocusing immediately once he's had a proper clamp down so while it's clearly an extension of normal puppy play/biting, from all the reading we've done, it's obviously at the extreme end.

So for now, we'll continue to keep him on a house lead when out of his pen so that we can reduce the opportunities he has to do it in the first place or at least, when we are able to refocus immediately, even if it's only for a second, we can better control him using the leash so he doesn't get a chance to reclamp. I'm quite sure our progress will be a lot slower than it would be were we to 'tap him with a spatula on the bum' as someone suggested to me, but for us, we'll just continue to take it slow.

Clearly, if this behaviour continues as he reaches full adolescence, we'll be in touch with a behaviourist to work with us in a more focused way but as I say, it's reduced a lot already to perhaps once a week rather than every day as it seemed to be a month back.

Emma, glad to hear your wrist is feeling better...we make sure to look over at him while he's asleep to remind us of his gorgeousness if we've had a particularly bitey episode!   

[abkb]

I cant believe that you all put up with puppies biting you like this

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I "put up" with Molly's biting.  Surely asking on here for advice, asking Molly's breeder, and speaking to the trainer of the puppy classes we went to (who uses positive training methods by the way) indicates the opposite.  I am not "putting up" with Molly's behaviour by any means, so I find that quite rude.

Roll up a newspaper wrap an elastic band found it and when the puppy bites a firm tap with the rolled up paper and a firm NO. It wont hurt them and the noise from the paper warns them off.

I don't think you read my post.  As I said, Molly is not a nervous dog by any means, she is gorgeous, confident and ballsy, who gets very excited by loud voises e.g no, when we were looking through holiday brochures the other day I chucked them all on the floor; big loud noise and Molly was giddy.

The trainer we went to for Molly's classes said the following re tapping a dog on the nose (this is an example).  If you start giving your dog a tap on the nose when they're 'naughty', it may stop them the first couple of times, but then it would'nt be enough.  So the next time, you might have to hit the pup a bit harder...until eventually for any type of reaction from your dog you would have to do something even more extreme. 

Now I'm obviously not saying that you would do this, because you clearly said yourself that you wouldn't hit your dogs.  The reason I've said the above is because it links to your 'method' to stop a puppy misbehaving.  You say you would slam a newspaper down and say 'no' when puppy was biting.  As I know for certain that this would excite Molly (or maybe work the first time), what would you suggest I do the next time to ensure I got a reaction?  Get some cymbals and bang them in her ear and say no?

I don't mean to be rude, but your suggestion that I "put up" with my puppy's biting, and then go on to suggest that the only way I can overcome it is to whack a newspaper down next to her is in my opinion pretty ridiculous.  It's almost as ridiculous as the first "dog trainer" we went to, who said the only way Molly would get used to big dogs was by "forcing her to submit" to them.