possesiveness?

[KellyT]

Hi all,

I need a bit of advice to make sure we're doing the right things with our newest member Hazel (6months) and our older girl Jennie (8 years).
Jennie can tend to have a slight possessive streak - usually about me, slippers, socks... Millie (10years) tends to just ignore her when she 'gets one on her' and we would take away whatever it was Jennie was 'guarding'. It had never escalated to anything above a grumble, and we'd diffuse the situation by removing the item (or me   )

Since Hazel has arrived Jen is just on 'high alert' all the time, grumbling quite a bit at Hazel and trying to 'stare her down'  

This escalated this evening when I was cuddling Jennie and Hazel came up to us; I went to push her away but Jen starting growling and snarling, lunging at Hazel - who tried it back!!   now I'm not sure if Hazel was trying to play, or was being aggressive - afterwards Jen was a bit 'shaken' and Hazel just returned to her usual self ... I was in the middle of it though and managed to keep them at arms length.  It seemed to be a lot of 'noise' but I'm not sure  

The evening has been relatively tense, with a minor growling scuffle occurring again as Hazel went to walk passed Jennie.

Should we allow Jennie to growl / snap at Hazel? Especially when Hazel seems to be trying it back? It doesn't sound like the growls Millie used to make when Jennie was a pup... it sounds more sinister  

I know it's only been 2 days, so am I expecting too much?

feeling guilty for bringing Hazel home now for both hers and Jennie's sakes  

[seaangler]

Our Peggy grumbles alot with are (Gemma 7 months old) and snaps at gemma(its all hangbags again)...If both on the settee together also Peggy will guard he soft toys...Just leave them as we have done with ares to sort there differences out...

(unless its relay aggressive)

Hazel will soon learn to know her place....

Two days...Me thinks you are expecting miracles...will be a fair few weeks if not longer

[KellyT]

Two days...Me thinks you are expecting miracles...will be a fair few weeks if not longer

well my only experience of introducing a new dog was Jennie at 8 weeks old 8 years ago ... Millie grumbled for a about a day and then accepted her and they got on great - but Millie was 2, and Jennie was a baby .... I guess what I have here is 1 OAP, 1 middle aged slightly eccentric lady and now a teenager who is testing patience

Happened again this morning. I was on the sofa, Jennie asked to come up so I let her, and Hazel just bounced up and on to Jennie and a small tussle ensued, and I put them both on the floor and walked away from them. Jennie is now sulking in her bed grumbling away and Hazel charges around the living room 

[seaangler]

This morning getting ready for work sat down with my tea...Peggy jump up on my lap followed by gemma...Gemma is a right tease she just has to try it on with Peggy...Any ways Peggy will growl as gemma will sniff at Peggy ...Peggy in return will growl at Gemma...(handbags again)...gemma just thinks its all a game...Like you say your other  dog was just a day or so and got over it..this may take longer.....(gemma being a fieldy is far bigger than peggy ..but size does not matter with dogs.....

Its been some four months with are Peggy and gemma..And NO blood has been spilt as of yet....like i said they will get over it in time...(as long as there is no serious aggression) then i would look into it further.....

[Bluebell]

Give it time
I would make sure the older ones have a space to call their own that is puppy free When we introduced Teva we had to put the puppy panels around Isaacs - age 8, bed to keep him safe, or Teva would jump on him when he was asleep and take absolutley no notice of him telling her off
Lillie would just grumble, alot, under her breath and find somewhere else to rest. I had a small crate for Teva in the lounge so that our evenings were a little more relaxing for all!
It all went on for 5 or 6 weeks before everything started to settle down, and we got through it by having them all together in small doses, with lots of seperate space
We hit another blip when Teva started to become an adolescent (actually I think she was born adolescent ) at about 8 months, which lasted for a month or so. After she had her first season, she calmed down alot, and the other two could finally breath a sigh of relief
My two cocker girls are now the best of friends, so even though it took time, we got there

[Karma]

I would agree with the give it time advice... at 6 months, Hazel is at an age where she will be wanting to test out her power in inter-dog relationships, so it's not as straightforward as introducing a puppy (where puppy license helps a lot!).

If there is dispute over you, rather than getting involved in any way, get up and walk away - they'll soon learn that they both lose out!!!    (unless, of course, there's real aggression happening rather than just grumbles and handbags!)

[Ben's mum]

I think you need to give it some time.  We had a similar situation when we bought Harry home he was 8 months and very bouncy and Ben was 7 and very cross that we had bought him a brother 

I put up a baby gate to give them some space from each other and also to give me some time when I  didn't feel I had to watch them all the time.  Ben growled, grumbled and picked on Harry for a couple of weeks, but it was all noise and no blood spilt.  I would say it was good few months before Ben completly relaxed, and accepted Harry.  Ben was not used to having another dog round the house and we knew he was grumpy anyway, if your Jennie is used to having other dogs around and is generally accepting i am sure they will settle down more quickly.  can you give them some time apart at all?

Good luck   

[saffysmum]

I go through this on a daily basis.  My old cocker hates my youngest.  Saffy has been here since 8 weeks but Ruby has wanted to kill her from day 1.  We are getting better.  Ruby will let Saff up on the sofa so long as I'm not there.  If Ruby and I are snuggling then Saff is not allowed.  Ruby also gets to sleep in our room but Saff sleeps downstairs with our other dog.  Any chance she gets, she zips upstairs and straight into our bad for a cuddle.  This drives Ruby nuts!  I think Ruby thinks that Saff has no respect.  But I'll tell you, Ruby has taught her some excellent manners that I could never have done .  So I tend to back up Ruby.  Saff is not allowed on the sofa if Ruby is beside me.  Saff is not allowed upstairs at all. Ruby gets fed first or treats first.  Ruby gets out the door and in the car first.  Ruby is pack leader, definately. And I help her by cemeting this fact to all the dogs. This keeps the peace in my house.
I do think it's a bit soon to worry though.  They need time to sort out where they are in the pack.
Funnily enough, Ruby has never bothered with our other bitch since she came but Cody is very submissive and maybe Ruby doesn't see her as much of a threat as Saffymonster.

[Oscar1]

hi all, I'm new on here and wondered if you have any advise for me with my new cocker called Oscar. He is now coming up to 1 years old (in March) and the only issue we have is he can be possessive over his toys / bone and with his food! i have tried several tricks with him such as making him sit before we tell him to go for his dinner and half way through standing over him and telling him to "leave it" which he can do sometimes! again with his toys and bone he can leave it when told sometimes but others he will growl and put his paws over it  Also we have always told him "down" off the furniture especially the sofa but he continues to jump up and starts snapping at us if we try to get him off and tell him "down"!! Any other techniques i can try???  Thanks

[Karma]

Ok - imagine you were out for a nice meal and the waiter who gave you your meal stood over you the whole time and kept telling you to stop eating.
How would you feel?? Would you feel relaxed eating, or would you begin to feel stressed/confused/anxious?

Yes, we need to be able to train our dogs to release things to us as a safety precaution, but this is best achieved through kind, positive steps, rather than just expecting them to.

Next time he is eating, gently toss some tasty treats into his bowl... keep on with this and he will start to associate your presence with good things rather than a threat to his survival (food being necessary for survival).
You can train a "leave" and "give" but start with low value things, and reward with high value rewards - if you search on the forum for "leave" or "give" training you should find some threads (I'm sorry, but don't have time to go through it all now...).
Searching for "guarding" will also give you some good threads to read.

As far as not jumping up - how have you trained him to understand that when you say down it means you want him to get off the sofa?  And, out of interest, what command to you use for lying flat on the floor, as it shouldn't be the same command for two different actions?  It's no good just telling a dog something, the dog has to understand what the command means and, until it is taught to a very high standard, it has to be more rewarding to obey than to disobey - so even if he knows what "down" means, if getting down means he gets a half-hearted "Good Boy" and disobeying means he gets the leftovers from the Sunday Roast from a counter-top, or even just a nice comfortable space to lie on, guess what's going to be more appealling...    When you say "try to get him off" does that mean you are trying to physically remove him?  It's more effective to use a treat to lure him off, and give him the treat when he is off the sofa. 

I would highly recommend getting hold of a copy of "Mine" by Jean Donaldson.

[BillysMum]

wow karma what a brilliant reply... I would follow karma's advice, i did/do the same when my boys are eating and neither mind anyone being around their food but i do tend to just leave them to eat and don't ever take it off them but i occasionally add extras to their bowl.

You could always put a long line onto his collar while in the house so you can guide him off the sofa and then give lots of fuss when on the floor while training him what "down" means. I use "down" for a lay flat on the floor so i use "off" for get off the furniture etc.

[KellyT]

Thanks all for your thoughts and advice on the situation - I know it was a bit soon to be worrying, but I wanted to make sure we were doing the right things.

We're trying to ensure that the 'pack order' is kept - feeding Millie, then Jennie, then Hazel last.  greeting them in that order etc..

So a couple of weeks on and Jennie is still a bit grumbly... but we have a play fight situation developing now.. which is nice, but I am worried about how far it will go (there's been a lot of noise at some points ) and of course Jennie shouldn't be charging and jumping about too much so I have to 'break it up' when it gets too lively.

It usually starts with Hazel with her bum in the air, tail wagging, and front legs / chest on the floor barking at Jennie, who stands and wags her tail slowly. Then Jennie will adopt the same position and they bark at one another, until one of them will explode towards the other and then they chase around, 'play' growling and mouthing at one another. Sometimes rolling around on the floor, tumbling about etc.  
A couple of times the rolling around on the floor has result in 'pinning' and more aggressive sounding growling / snarling - which I have split up.

Millie watches all of this with disdain.. though she has gotten up and growled at both of them occasionally, and more recently during a bout she's mounted Jennie    which I had to stop cos I was worried about Jennie's back and the extra weight - but I stopped it and fussed Millie to try and re-assert her status as top dog.

Thinking on it, the last time I saw play like this was when either Millie or Jennie were in season and they would play fight.. Hazel isn't in season though (at least there's no blood etc as yet).

It would be useful to get on opinion from one of the behaviourist folk if this play is 'safe' or if its damaging to whatever 'pack set-up' we have.  We have always treated Millie as the top dog - she gets fed first etc, although Jennie is the 'possessive' one, Millie normally ignored Jennies possessive behaviour and usually would sit on her if she started it up! So I'm confused as to who is where, and want to make sure we get it right.

I will try and video the next 'play' session and put a link up for you to watch - in the meantime any thoughts are most welcome

thank you

[Karma]

Ok, I'm not a behaviourist, and I'm not experienced in a multi-dog household.
But I would say the play the sounds normal, it sounds like Millie mounting Jennie was purely a means of her calming the play down.  (Having seen stooge dogs at work at puppy romps and so seen how dogs will intervene in other dogs play...)
But I would also say that it's not your place to establish a pack hierarchy between your dogs.  Dogs will generally work it out on their own - some groups of dogs will have a clear leader, for others the leader varies depending on the situation... you working to maintain an arrangement that may change at some point could create more stress. 
Hopefully someone with more expertise will come along soon to put your mind at rest further, but my advice would be just to relax and let the dogs be dogs... 

[Bluebell]

 relax and let the dogs be dogs... 

Absolutely There is no clear heirachy with my dogs, it is all very fluid depending on the situation and each personality

[elaine.e]

Ok, I'm not a behaviourist, and I'm not experienced in a multi-dog household.
But I would say the play the sounds normal, it sounds like Millie mounting Jennie was purely a means of her calming the play down.  (Having seen stooge dogs at work at puppy romps and so seen how dogs will intervene in other dogs play...)
But I would also say that it's not your place to establish a pack hierarchy between your dogs.  Dogs will generally work it out on their own - some groups of dogs will have a clear leader, for others the leader varies depending on the situation... you working to maintain an arrangement that may change at some point could create more stress. 
Hopefully someone with more expertise will come along soon to put your mind at rest further, but my advice would be just to relax and let the dogs be dogs... 

Totally agree. I've only ever had 2 dogs at any one time, but each time I've introduced a new dog I haven't tried to keep the established dog as a leader. I've been careful to keep the new puppy safe and to let the established dog have a refuge from the puppy, but I've not had any expectation of which dog (if any) will end up as a leader. As it happens, there's never been a clear leader with either my first 2 dogs or the current 2 and that hasn't caused any real problems. I think that providing the dogs are safe when they're together and also have opportunities to be alone, they should be left to sort out their own hierarchy.

With regard to the humping, my 7 year old neutered male (not normally a humper) sometimes humps other dogs that my 2 year old entire male is playing or interracting with if the play/interraction becomes too boisterous and noisy. It's an instinctive attempt by William to calm down a situation that he perceives as getting out of hand. I try not to intervene, although I sometimes have to when it happens out on walks as not all dog owners are happy when their dog has Louis barking/play bowing or growling at the front end of their dog and William humping the back end . If it's a dog and owner I don't know I simply put William back on lead to avoid it happening, but that's to keep the other dog owner happy, not to stop a natural behaviour by William that often works.