Still chasing and barking at dogs - any advice please

[miss holly]

Hi

Our cocker was really submissive around other dogs until about 6 months ago when two incidents seem to have changed her behaviour completely.

The first one was when off lead in a field a very large, young exuberant dog chased her and eventually pinned her down.

The same day when walking in the park ( again off lead) a cyclist rode past very fast with a dog running alongside it seemed to have completely shocked Holly and she started chasing it and barking - the first time she has ever done this. Sadly, it wasn't the last!!

We dealt with the first problem by arranging to walk with his dog and Holly whilst we were all there to supervise and control if necessary. This worked really well and she is now fine with it.

The second incident seems to have completely changed her though. Every time she sees dogs with cyclists, dogs with jobbers or collie-type dogs she chases them barking really aggressively.

We have just come back from another really upsetting walk; we thought we were making progress but she is completely uncontrollable when she starts this behaviour, nothing seems able to interrupt it.

Worse still, we have a second placid dog who is also joining in!!

I posted about this before but would really appreciate any extra advice.

Thanks

[elaine.e]

I haven't had the specific problem that you do with cyclists, joggers etc., but my younger Cocker Louis has fear aggression and sometimes chases other dogs. The similarity between Holly's problem and Louis's problem is the lack of self control both have when it comes to the particular things that upset them during walks.

It sounds like Holly is getting stressed and has an adrenaline rush every time she sees a cyclist or jogger. When that happens she's unable to focus on anything else. The more often it happens the more likely it is to happen again, so you need to break the cycle.

I'm not a trainer, but the advice I've been given about Louis has really helped him and me, so could be worth considering for you and Holly. The first and most obvious thing is to avoid the cause of stress as often as possible. I don't know how practical that is for you. With Louis there are certain places I simply don't take him to at the moment and won't until he can behave more calmly. I don't want to set him up to fail.

I have to be vigilant on my walks and plan ahead on Louis's behalf, assessing each potential problem as I see it approaching and making decisions about what to do. It's a real pain sometimes and takes the pleasure out of my walks, but it's worth it when we have a successful walk with a calm Louis

I've taught Louis and my older and more placid Cocker William a "watch me" to get their attention focussed completely on me. I started off at home with treats, training one dog at a time. Hold a treat in one hand so the dog can see it, then bring that hand up to your eye level so the dog is watching your face as well as the treat. Once the dog is watching intently, even for a second, praise and reward with a treat from the other hand. Gradually build up the time the dog is focussing on you and introduce the words "watch me" (or whatever you choose).

I use "watch me" on walks when I see a dog approaching that I think Louis may react to and it works really well. I can now judge pretty well the "safe" distance where Louis will look at a dog and not react and the occasions where I'll need to use "watch me". I also sometimes practice it on a walk when there's no dogs or distractions nearby. The safe distance for Louis is getting shorter as he becomes more confident and calm around other dogs, so it's definitely working.

We still have bad days and I've had to learn to toughen up mentally and not let the bad days get to me, because Louis picks up on it. I really, really sympathise with you because I know how upsetting it is to go on walks where you feel your dog is out of control and an embarrassment and a potential danger to others

I'm sure there are others on here who will have had similar experiences and good advice too, but I hope my experiences and progress with Louis will be useful to you

[miss holly]

Thank you for this incredibly helpful advice.

I am sure that you are right and that we need to break her patterns. She seems much better and calmer in the fields where there is less to chase and get excited by.

The moment we get in the park she seems to go into 'chase mode' : squirrels, rabbits etc and so seems hyper and 'on alert' the whole time. She is quite excitable at the best of times!

I am really worried that this is escalating and I will not be able to control her.

Are there any training books that anyone would recommend?

Thanks for your help and advice

[Laura]

Like Elaine I'm not a dog trainer but I have 2 dogs that can be over-excited, nervous and reactive.

I would highly recommend Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt.  Her book is aimed at agility dogs but is overall for teaching impulse control in reactive/excitable dogs.  Blossom was very excitable and reactive, which used to then trigger Ziggy off. Ziggy was more laid back but nervous and hypervigilant, noticing every change in the environment. He would therefore trigger Blossom too.  As well as watch me, I also use "look at that." Instead of teaching the dog to ignore triggers and watch the owner, they are instead taught to look calmly and then turn to get a treat.  Watch me worked with Blossom but, it made Ziggy paranoid that something was coming up behind him even if he was facing the approaching trigger.  Look at that suited him much better.  Look at that was also useful for Blossom as it broke her pattern of barking and charging forward when excited, unsure and anxious.  It has taught the opposite and is instead conditioning a recall as a default  behaviour.  I started off miles away from a trigger (let's say a dog) and would click for looking at the dog and not barking.  Over time the distance is reduced or the dog is moving round more ie playing ball with its owner.  If ever I up the criteria too fast leading to a reaction, I do not correct but create distance and get out of the situation.  My mistake not theirs.  I think my hardest lesson was knowing when to quit training. Now as soon as I think wow what fantastic progress today - time to end on a successful high rather than pushing a bit further and risking a reaction.

Leslie the author does emphasise not to go straight into the exercises such as "look at that" without doing the foundation work first.  For instance, it does involve really managing walks for a while to avoid possible triggers; to give the dog a chance to really lower it's stress levels before starting a behaviour modification programme.   For me this meant very quiet locations and individual walking, which gave me a chance to read, absorb and plan rather than jumping straight in - probably the biggest mistake I made when I first got my littermates when they were 8 months old.  They're 21 months old now and making fabulous progress.  I walk them together again in busier places.

Like Elaine I continue to micromanage walks.  As soon as I notice something I know my dogs wont cope with or a change in my dogs behaviour/body language that they are getting anxious or over excited, I get out of the situation by doing a quick about turn, disappear into the undergrowth or anything else that means we diffuse and remain below threshold.  For me this also meant changing my behaviour - ie in the early days I started to scan for potential problems more than Ziggy. I had to learn to relax myself and not get upset/frustrated when we had and still have set backs.  Easier said than done I know.  It took a long time for me to realise that I prompted Blossom to bark as I would pause while I sussed out a situation - even now if I hesitate she will take over and will often make a poor choice and bark.

Turid Rugaas "on talking terms with dogs" is useful if you are not already familiar with calming signals and behaviours dogs display when anxious, over excited etc.  As I said previous I will manage a walk but, I don't scan and watch the horizon anymore.  My dogs will communicate quite clearly how they feel, as long as I take the time to notice and listen.

Another resource I found useful is Dr Karen Overalls relaxation protocol http://dogscouts.org/Protocol_for_relaxation.html The idea is for the dog to learn to relax around distractions so, do not train high energy as in a training session. Instead, choose quiet relaxed moments and aim to keep the dog chilled.  I must start this programme again myself.

I hope my experience is of some help to you (hopefully it makes sense as ive done this reply on my mobile).  Good luck, you will get there.  

[elaine.e]

Your post is really helpful to me Laura and I'm sure it will be for Holly's owner too.

A book I really like is How To handle Living With Your Dog by Winkie Spiers. It's not a training book but is exactly what it says, full of clear and easy to understand explanations and advice about how to live with your dog. It's taught me a huge amount about reading my dog's body language and the stress that us humans can inadvertantly put our dogs under.

I love the idea of "look at that" and without being aware already have the first steps in place with Louis, who gets quiet praise and a treat when he looks at a dog but chooses to stay calm and not run over to it.

Off to Amazon now to look at the books you've recommended and do some shopping. Thanks

[miss holly]

Thank you all so much for such brilliant advice.

We had a much better walk today, I kept her on a lead in the park and she had a great run across fields: a much better experience.

Holly is brilliant in the house, calm, loving everything you would want. She even enjoys singing and howls along in tune!

It's when she leaves the house that she becomes excitable, it's almost as if she is 'on alert'. I can certainly see an adrenaline rush when she is in the park; it is really addictive for her. She is also terrible on a short lead, she just wants to get where we a going so that she can run and chase.


The owner of the dog that she chased yesterday pointed out that her dog wasn't reacting at all to Holly's chasing and barking - almost as if she had read the signals as non aggressive. I hope she's right!

[Laura]

Holly's mum I am so glad you have had a better walk today.   The way you descibe Holly is how Blossom is.   It's as though she has an on/off switch for indoors and out     I get upset if people assume my 2 are aggressive.  Mine like Holly both have wonderful temperaments but, their barking has been their way of controlling what they found stressful - whether excited, anxious or over-stimulated (excitement still increases adrenaline so can trigger a physiological stress response), they are not actually aggressing.   

The first time Blossom's reactivity started with us was at 9 months when a Collie flew across from its owner barking and growling not long after we rehomed her.  She became stranger fearful when a man went to grab his dog but, leaned over Blossom.  Poor thing pooped herself.   Blossom would trigger the barking and then Ziggy would take over - often not having a clue what he was barking at.  However, he became the horizon watcher.    In hindsight, I continued to take them into situations they weren't coping with.  One such place for Blossom was the local dog park.   Continuing to take them there later backfired on me.   

I started Grisha's BAT training months ago:  Behavioural Adjustment Therapy http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/bat/ This is another really good read and technique for you.  For me set ups proved difficult. I was at this point still going to the local park.  I would use dogs in the distance to practise approaches and then allow Blossom to indicate when to turn away.  She excelled at it for a while as did Ziggy.  However it proved problematic as I could not guarantee the other dog would not come over; undoing our training.  Blossom started to get over excited there - running and chasing the other dogs who came over to her.   As Blossom got a little older and more confidant and dogs continued to ignore her barks, she started to charge forward and bark.  Sometimes excitement driven, sometimes anxiety and sometimes hard to tell.  If an approaching dog ignored her distancing behaviours and came up anyway, she was never anything but friendly.    However, each time it happened, she got worse.  She was also learning not to engage so much with me - I was no longer the most exciting thing.  We stopped going there months ago, despite it being almost on my doorstep.

The watch me didn't prove the best for mine so, I then changed tactics again when I bought "Control Unleashed."  I went with the advice of management - avoiding anything stimulating for my dogs to reduce their overall stress levels - whether from excitement (Blossom) or anxiousness (Ziggy).   After a good read, I then started LAT (look at that) with both dogs individually.     The good thing about LAT is that it promotes confidence in the anxious dog but, teaches focus and impulse control in an excitable dog too.    It is working brilliantly for us.  Progress is really being made now.  I have found it useful dropping treats on the floor.  Sniffing the floor is a calming behaviour and the treats rewarding.  It also gives a calming signal to any approaching dogs.  (Do be careful if your dog resource guards and a dog is getting closer and there are still treats on the floor.  It's not a problem I've experienced but I can see the potential as I use high value treats just for LAT to increase its effect).  Control Unleashed teaches much more than LAT - it has loads of advice and exercises in it.
 
Something I have found useful with Blossom (as she too becomes excitable once outside) is to only make progress to a walk if calm before the walk.  Ie. calm behaviour - lead on.  Calm behaviour walk to front door.  Calm behaviour open door.  Calm behaviour walk outside.  Calm behaviour walk forward - there's a trend going on    Moving to the next level to get outside becomes the treat/reinforcer for the calm behaviour.  The first time I ever tried to do this, it took me an hour to open the front door.  Now, it takes less than 2 minutes.  When I get the lead mine go and lie in there beds    Premack principle's I believe - a dog will perform an undesirable behaviour (be calm) to engage in a desirable behaviour (go for a walk).   I'll get off of dog psychology now before I get out my depth as I'm not a trainer/behaviourist - I would hate to advise you wrong

Your post is really helpful to me Laura and I'm sure it will be for Holly's owner too.

A book I really like is How To handle Living With Your Dog by Winkie Spiers. It's not a training book but is exactly what it says, full of clear and easy to understand explanations and advice about how to live with your dog. It's taught me a huge amount about reading my dog's body language and the stress that us humans can inadvertantly put our dogs under.

Off to Amazon now to look at the books you've recommended and do some shopping. Thanks

 

Elaine - Looks like you are going to cost me money too     I will check that book recommendation thank you    I am always open to new reads, especially dog ones.

Likewise, sharing your experiences are also very useful to me.  I've read quite a few of your replies on the forum over the last few months.  They've helped me no end too.  This is the first time though I've been brave enough to offer any advice to others.  I'm certainly learning a lot from our little furry teachers    even patience  and there is no such thing as a quick fix 


I'm so sorry, this was going to be a quick reply 

[janandted]

Wow what great advice and book recommendations from Elaine and Laura,thank you,  I'm sure many people on here will benefit from reading this thread.