Fighting

[Dog Mad]

Well my two boys have started fighting - quite badly.

Einstein is nearly 8 and Morgan is nearly 3 and the trouble started approx 3/4 months ago.  As both dogs were entire and it appeared Morgan was maturing (trying to cock leg, scent marking, humping Einstein etc) we decided to get Morgan chemically castrated, this appeared to work with the fighting reducing from several times a weeks to a couple of times in the month. We then went ahead with another injection to check we were sure it was working as it appeared to be we went ahead then with the op (this was approx 3 weeks ago).

However in the last week the fighting has got worse, fighting everyday. Yet as it appears in most cases the dogs can be ok with each other a few minutes later.

 As we have a one year old son obviously this is very worrying and we are now unable to let the dogs have the run of the house as this is when troubles start (they seem to be ok when they are in their own room together with no human company).

When it kicks off there are no warning growls just full on war and we really struggle to separate them.  Trigger points appear to be doorways (if there is a rush to get through them or they cross each other at one), excitement when jumping up at people, but then it has also kicked off as they have just been walking past each other. Food is not a trigger point, they will happily eat food next to each other with no complaints.

It has now got to the point where my husband and parents (who are regular baby/dog sitters) would like me to rehome Morgan due to the risk of somebody getting seriously hurt (my husband bears scars from when he got in the way whilst trying to split them up). This has obviously left me distraught as the dogs are my babies but I do have to put my family safety first.

I have contacted Top Barks and Morgans breeder for further advice and am waiting for them to reply.  Any advice would be great fully received including any recommendations of good behaviourists in the Blackpool/Preston area.

Sorry for the long rambling post, I just can't believe they are behaving like this :-(

Thanks

Debbie

[jaybee]

Debbie, it sounds like you are taking steps in the right direction having contacted Top Barks and the breeder.  I really hope you will get the help you need with this. Well done on asking for help.
I'm afraid i can offer you no advice, but i didn't want to read and run.
Will be thinking of you, hope you can find a resolution to this problem.
xx

[Dog Mad]

Thanks, it's really difficult, it's just very bizarre behaviour for us to see and I'm sure the dogs can't be happy either. 

[Dog Mad]

Well I have been in contact with a behaviourist and to be fair they were really honest, however didn't hold out much hope and did suggest re-homing one if I had the opportunity to do so.

This is killing me, I really don't want to give up on my boys but I'm not sure what else I can do. will contact another behaviourist to get a second opinion.

 

[jaybee]

 

This must be so unbelievably hard. Keep us up to speed with how you get on with a second opinion.

[Nicola]

Debbie I'm sorry to hear you're in this situation. I've been there with Alfie and Ro so please feel free to pm me; although our experience ended up having what I still firmly believe was the best resolution for the dogs it wasn't exactly the happiest outcome for me at the time and I know how difficult this can be.

[vixen]

When it kicks off there are no warning growls just full on war and we really struggle to separate them. 

This may come across as hard, but have you ever left them to sort out their differences?
I have two litter sisters (supposedly the worst combination you can have ) and there have been lots of occasions when they have argued.  To begin with, I did try to separate them, put them in time out and then reintroduce them.  This just didn't work.  One day, when it started off I just left them.  It was really hard to do and the sound was horrific, but it didn't last long and they got over it very quickly.  No blood, bites or anything.  They are now 5 and there are occasions when there is lots of growling and it threatens to accelerate but I just walk away from the situation and that seems to diffuse it.  I know them both very well and I know what situations may cause problems.  They are not allowed toys in the house but strangely enough they do share a tennis ball outside and will even take in turns returning it.  I am careful when I come home and when visitors enter but the majority of the time now they are fine as I know what triggers them off.
Only you can decide if you want to cope with the situation.  I don't have young children so didn't have to consider their safety.

[Dog Mad]

Blood has been drawn in their fights, nothing needed vet treatment but I would hate to see what would happen if left to it

[Smokey 1]

If it is getting too much I would sugest this Lady, she is very good. Just outside Preston but travels the area

http://www.tinkleburypapillons.co.uk/


Smokey

[vixen]

Debbie, I was only relating how I cope with my girls.  Only you can decide what is best for your boys.
I am able to 'read' my girls very well as they do give 'signals'.  I do realize that if your boys aren't giving you any indications, it is much harder for you.

[Cockertime Blues]

Debbie I really feel for you too as we have been there with Alfie and Mollie (the self-same Alfie mentioned above by Nicola).  Not Alfie's fault and poor Nicola's loss was our gain.  However, our resolution was not a good outcome and we no longer have Mollie.  I think I would wait a little while to see if Morgan settles down after his op as his body won't know what's going on right now, while taking the advice of a behaviourist and your breeder, and a vet trip to make sure nothing physical is bothering him. 

We had a really good behaviourist work with Mollie.  We had exercises to reduce her frustration levels etc., but nothing seemed to work.  She ended up pinning Alfie down sometimes a dozen or more times a day as he refused to fight back, and indeed became too wary to even be around her and by extension, us.  We tried keeping her on a house lead at home (like you we had no problems outside) as suggested by the behaviourist so we could lead her gently away from a fight.  Unfortunately, while this worked, she seemed to stack all her frustrations up and would trounce Alfie even harder when the house line came off, and blood was drawn.  So for us, it didn't work, but a house line may work for you.

We decided both dogs must have been very unhappy in this situation, Alfie because he was on the receiving end and Mollie because she obviously couldn't cope with life with us for whatever reason, plus she did start redirecting onto us after a fight and for a few other reasons too.  We have no young children here, but if we had I doubt they could have been together with the two dogs.  As hard as it is to think of rehoming a beloved dog, you really have to think of the dog's quality of life.  I really hope it doesn't come to that for you though - it may well be something you can work out with a behaviourist.

We've had another dog, Genie, living with us for 6 months now and, to date, she and Alfie have had no problems.  I was starting to worry it was poor Alfie that was just a dog other dogs love to hate, but he's not.

Lots of luck and hugs.

[niqnet]

Hi,

I hope you are ok! I have PM'd you x

[Dog Mad]

Hi,

Thanks for all your comments, just thought I would give an update.

I have been in touch with a few behaviourists and so far have not found one who thought there would be a positive outcome :-( Although they would be willing to try I have been told this could cost several hundred pounds.

My best friend has offered to have one of my dogs on a temporary or a permanent basis, whichever I prefer and is happy to work with me and whatever I want.  I am giving this some consideration and letting them think about it more.  Obviously this would be good as I could see him whenever I wanted but I can't believe I may become one of those people who 'gives up on their dog'.  I now know what a terrible decision it is to make.  However I am still hoping for a miracle.

Debbie

[lindseyp]

Hi,

Thanks for all your comments, just thought I would give an update.

I have been in touch with a few behaviourists and so far have not found one who thought there would be a positive outcome :-( Although they would be willing to try I have been told this could cost several hundred pounds.

My best friend has offered to have one of my dogs on a temporary or a permanent basis, whichever I prefer and is happy to work with me and whatever I want.  I am giving this some consideration and letting them think about it more.  Obviously this would be good as I could see him whenever I wanted but I can't believe I may become one of those people who 'gives up on their dog'.  I now know what a terrible decision it is to make.  However I am still hoping for a miracle.

Debbie

Debbie - of course that's how you must be feeling, finding yourself in this horrible situation  but the truth is you aren't giving up -you couldn't be doing anymore than you are already, to help both your boys 
Sometimes, however, there's no magical answer & if living apart is the best scenario for them both, then you are doing the best you can as an owner 

I really do hope an answer can be found & the difficulties between them both settles 

[twiceover2]

I agree with lindseyp that you are not giving up on your dog.  You are finding the best solution to a serious behavioural problem.  I really feel for you as it must be an awful decision to have to make but whatever you do, you will be doing it in the best interests of your dogs. You are not giving up on them because you can't be bothered to help them or because you don't love them or want them any more. If you do decide to let your friend rehome one of your dogs, it will be because you want your dogs to have happy stress-free safe lives.  Good luck.