Stud dog?

[dipsydoodlenoodle]

I was recently asked at a show if I'd be interested in using Charlie as a stud dog next year (in 12 months time!).

I've read the sticky thread but I'm wondering is there anything else that I need to know?

I did tell the lady I wasn't sure and I'd have to think about it, so I'm just wondering does anyone have any more pro's and con's? I just want to make sure I 100% know the pro's and con's before...

[Jane S]

We waited 10 years or so before we felt we had enough knowledge to offer a dog at stud - it really is a minefield until you've built up your knowledge and experience and even then, it's not always easy or straightforward. I could give you chapter and verse on some of the "difficult" girls we've had visit us when we had a dog at stud (we don't at the moment thankfully ) Without the knowledge & experience we had built up (and without the help of experienced mentor friends in the past), we would not have coped. You've read the sticky thread so you already know all the things that you need to think about re health testing, possible changes of behaviour, knowledge of lines etc. I guess what you need to ask yourself is do you really feel ready for taking this step and what would be your reasons for offering Charlie at stud?

PS Was the person that asked you an experienced breeder? If they liked Charlie, the obvious thing to do would be to use his father or another proven dog from similar lines. Seems an odd thing to ask as you are only just starting out with him

[dipsydoodlenoodle]

We waited 10 years or so before we felt we had enough knowledge to offer a dog at stud - it really is a minefield until you've built up your knowledge and experience and even then, it's not always easy or straightforward. I could give you chapter and verse on some of the "difficult" girls we've had visit us when we had a dog at stud (we don't at the moment thankfully ) Without the knowledge & experience we had built up (and without the help of experienced mentor friends in the past), we would not have coped. You've read the sticky thread so you already know all the things that you need to think about re health testing, possible changes of behaviour, knowledge of lines etc. I guess what you need to ask yourself is do you really feel ready for taking this step and what would be your reasons for offering Charlie at stud?

PS Was the person that asked you an experienced breeder? If they liked Charlie, the obvious thing to do would be to use his father or another proven dog from similar lines. Seems an odd thing to ask as you are only just starting out with him

My main question is does their behaviour really change?

Also what happens if it doesn't "take"?

When the girls visit, I guess someone needs to be around all the time? How long typically would they stay for?

The lady that asked is a breeder of field spaniels, she's got her first show cocker and is going to breed from her (next year).

I'm more just curious now...

[elaine.e]

About 25 years ago when I was showing my first Cocker, golden boy Josh, I had a couple of enquiries about using him at stud. I was flattered but puzzled. Why would people want to use Josh, owned by a complete novice with zero experience of dog breeding, as a stud dog? He was doing well at shows but wasn't outstanding, and his sire and a litter brother were at stud, both owned by experienced breeders, so I just said a polite no and left it at that.  

After 20 years of not showing I then started to show blue roan and tan Louis in 2010. A breeder/exhibitor (not a COLer) asked me repeatedly if I would be interested in using him on some of her bitches. She knew Louis's pedigree extremely well so knew how weak it is (in showing terms) on the dam's side. Again I said no and eventually she stopped asking. I've always assumed it was just his blue roan and tan gene that she was interested in.

So I wonder if the lady who asked you has made enquiries with other Cocker dog owners too? No disrespect to Charlie or you at all, but as Jane has said, the obvious thing to do would be to use Charlie's sire or another proven dog from similar lines.

As for behaviour changes, when Josh was young he had a very good Cocker friend called Smartie, who was always beating us at shows but the 2 of them liked to play and chase around when not in the showring and became very good friends when Josh stayed with Smartie's mum for a week when I was on holiday. Smartie later became a stud dog and the first time he met Josh after that he had a real change in attitude and Josh's friendly greeting was met with growling and then biting when Josh didn't take the hint that his friend no longer liked him. So behaviour changes can happen too.

For me it was nice to think that somebody liked my boys enough to want to use them at stud, but I doubted their reasons for wanting to use them and I knew that I didn't have the knowledge or experience to cope. Also, there are so many Cocker puppies being bred that it's not always easy for breeders to find good homes and I didn't feel that Josh or Louis had anything special to bring to the breed so I couldn't personally justify using them.

Just my thoughts and experiences, but hope they're helpful

[Holly2009]

I think most studs mate a bitch 2/3 times over the bitches fertile period. Usually involves the bitch owner traveling to the stud for a mating on the days required. The bitch & stud are never left unattended and only brought together for the mating, think most breeders have 2 people for the mating one to hold the bitch & one to steady the dog, once they tie they need to be kept calm as not to hurt each other. You can get slip matings, ties from 5mins to 1 hrs (when we mated Holly she had 2 good 25 min ties) Some studs (with kennels) keep hold of the bitch over the mating period. 

[Jane S]

Also what happens if it doesn't "take"?

When the girls visit, I guess someone needs to be around all the time? How long typically would they stay for?

The lady that asked is a breeder of field spaniels, she's got her first show cocker and is going to breed from her (next year).

I'm more just curious now...

If a mating takes place and no pregnancy follows, it's usual for a "free return" to be offered on the next season. However that only applies if a stud fee has been paid - it's generally the norm for a stud fee not to be charged for a maiden boy until proven (ie until he has produced live puppies)

As to how long a visiting bitch might stay, that very much depends on what arrangement stud dog owner and breeder come to. Some stud dog owners don't have the facilities or don't want to look after an in season bitch so the bitch owner would be expected to travel to the stud dog (two matings are generally offered 48 hours apart). Other stud dog owners will have visiting bitches to stay for up to a week if they have kennels or other facilities for keeping in season bitches and entire males apart (except for closely supervised matings of course).

I know it's flattering to be asked but really this doesn't sound like an experienced breeder She should be getting advice from the breeder of her Cocker re prospective studs as she/he will know what lines suit her breeding and what to look out for. It also sounds like her Cocker is a maiden (not bred from before) and putting her with a maiden boy is a recipe for disaster - good breeders just don't do this unless they have extensive experience of breeding and handling males. This Field Spaniel lady should be looking for an experienced stud as her girl is a first timer, preferably one recommended by the breeder.

[dipsydoodlenoodle]

I'm sure I'm not going to do it, and I was sure before I started the thread. I'm interested in knowing how it works and I did want to get a fair understanding myself of the pros and cons.

[dottysmum]

Its certainly not something to be undertaken lightly, the stud would need a 'handler' who is experienced in the  mating of bitches, even when ready, bitches can object to being mated which can result in the stud being bitten so its certainly not a case of just letting the two get on with it themselves. It maybe something to look into for the future but the experience needed can only come with time, not just for the mating itself but for the responsibility that comes with it too.

[dipsydoodlenoodle]

Its certainly not something to be undertaken lightly, the stud would need a 'handler' who is experienced in the  mating of bitches, even when ready, bitches can object to being mated which can result in the stud being bitten so its certainly not a case of just letting the two get on with it themselves. It maybe something to look into for the future but the experience needed can only come with time, not just for the mating itself but for the responsibility that comes with it too.

Oh no I definiately don't want to do it yet, the lady who asked, asked for next December, I did say no. But then it has raised these questions about possibly in the future...

As lovely as it would be, at the moment I definitely don't have the time; however I'd at least like to get an idea so I can make up my mind properly so that IF it arrises again then I will be fully prepared.

[dottysmum]

Just out of curiosity Emma, can I ask why you may want to do it?
This is me just being nosey mind ;-)

[dipsydoodlenoodle]

Just out of curiosity Emma, can I ask why you may want to do it?
This is me just being nosey mind ;-)

I don't at the moment. It's just something that I'm interested in now and I'd like to know all the ins and outs, doesn't mean we'll ever do it.

[Cayley]

The responsibility is enormous, you have to know lines, be experienced in birth and having a litter and learn how to handle a mating. I would not feel experienced enough to have a stud dog yet  .

[penguins87]

When we first started looking into breeding from our bitch Beau i called countless stud dog owners and after filtering through a load we visited six.

We travelled around 480 miles to look at the stud dogs , meet the owners and to explore how they used thier dog what the lineage was how they liked the mating  to work and what the details of each contract was . Also one of the biggest factors for me was that beau was a maiden and my world . I did not want anything to happen to her and was extremely concerned that the handler of the stud dog knew what they were doing in case of injury to Beau . I had a million questions which I guess is strange when you think Mother Nature has been doing this type of thing for centuries - but this was our choice not beaus and we had to do right by her.

 If you do think about this route  you would do well  to find someone who can mentor you first and allow you to be at a fair few matings- in my view people need a bit of a strong stomach and expert handling of not so keen bitches who can bite and scream like I have never heard . I stayed with my beau through both her matings as I had worked at a horse stud but it still turned my tummy . 

Injury to either dog at mating is a big factor

[Sharon]

Dylan had a bitch come to him last summer, she flirted, stood solid, but the minute they tied she turned into a bucking bronco and screamed the place down, my shins/thighs/arms/hands were black & blue bruised where I had to hold them both so tightly to stop trying to kick poor Dylan away  .  The timing was spot on as she had 8 pups.  Just some bitches suddenly realise, once it's too late, that they don't actually like being mated.

[kalami]

Very interesting thread, never knew all this went on.