CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: ann on April 13, 2007, 06:25:12 PM
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Hey all, 'newbie' here :lol:
Just wondered what everyones views are on this matter i have....
My cocker bitch gave birth to 5 beautiful pups between 11.30 pm on wed through to 6.30 am thurday,(both her/me could hardly keep are eyes open at the end of it!)
sadly the last born girl has a cleft palate, we took her to the vets today to have her pts and he seemed very reluctant, saying that he had seen worse and that it was a very mild case, he said to try hand feeding her with a proper milk replacer and have her operated on when 3 months old to correct it , saying it was a fairly simple op.
I thought at first it would be irresponsible of me to raise her as she is not a good example of her breed, but surely if re homed her strictly as a pet only and treated her for it all this would be worth while? what does everyone think I should do?
I managed to give her a few drops of mothers milk at birth but she is now on the milk replacer.
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If your vet thinks so then I'd go with what he thinks especially if she has a chance (I help out with rescue so we get dogs in with all sorts of disabilities that have a good chance of a good life)
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I thought at first it would be irresponsible of me to raise her as she is not a good example of her breed, but surely if re homed her strictly as a pet only and treated her for it all this would be worth while? what does everyone think I should do?
Firstly, welcome to the forum :D
TBH speaking only as a pet owner, I would think it would be far more irresponsible to have the pup put to sleep, just because its not a good example of the breed :huh: Nature is not something that we can interfere with too much, ok I accept that show people want to produce the finest example of the breed, but a dog can happily get by with a cleft pallette surely :huh: If your vet feels this pup can lead a normal happy healthy life, than if I were you I would do my upmost to secure this pups future, as the breeder its your responsiblity to give this pup every chance ;)
I am sure there is a member of COL who has a dog with a cleft pallette, can't think who atm though, but maybe they can come forward and advise you :D
Best of luck ;)
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Well, thats what i thought at first , then i read in one of my whelping books that a pup with cleft palate should be culled as soon as its born but i couldn't bring my self to do it :-\
I will try and hand rear her, she only weighed 6 oz at birth- the other pups were 8 oz so she is very small, weak but fingers croosed she will make it.
hopefully if she makes it to adult hood she shouldn't have a problem after the operation has been done.
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..no advice sorry ..but hope the little one makes it x
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Hope she makes it :luv:
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Jasper's sister was born with the same defect - she was not culled! She has had several operations to close the clefts and can be susceptable to nasal infections but other than that she's a fiesty ittle thing. She is small - again last born but she is 7 in August - so draw your own opinion. They came from good breeding stock and a good breeder. She went to a pet home and I see no problem with that.
No pup with such a defect sould enter the gene pool so should only go to a pet home and I would recommend speying too to prevent any unwanted litters.
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We had a pup born with CP 2 years ago, which wasn't picked up until he was 6 weeks old. He was smaller than the rest of the litter, so I took over hand rearing him. To cut a long story short, we found him a wonderful family, who already had another cocker, he was fine until he reached around 18 months old, then started suffering nose bleeds, this was down to infection in his nasal cavities.
He was taken to Langford, where his new owners paid to have the CP repaired. We were also told that it is common for there to be a secondary problem associated with CP and this is cataracts. We took the pup to Thornbury, where he was checked out and yes he does have cataracts, but only out the outside of the nucleous, so whatever sight he was born with, probably won't get any worse and he will cope.
He's just coming up 2 years old now and a picture of health.
This was him at a week old, next to his sibling:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v194/crazycockers/Jasminespupsandourlittle1man14.jpg)
This is him now fighting fit
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v194/crazycockers/DSC00821.jpg)
No more infections, no more 'snotty nose' just a happy healthy cocker!
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aww thats great Sharon ..he is lovely :luv:
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if she survives thats raised my hopes for her so much :luv:
he's lovely by the way! ;)
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I'm so glad you are going to try with her Ann, sending lots of positive thoughts to this little girl, really hoping she pulls through :luv:
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Good luck with her, at times you'll wonder if you're doing the right thing, when you're tired and bottle feeding every hour or so 24/7, but when I see the pictures of 'Charlie' I know it was the right thing to do and we couldn't of asked for a better family than Adam and Steph who have taken such good care of him.
Keep us updated with her progress!
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:D
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I proberly would keep her but have already got my eye on a beautiful black and tan girl, knowing me i will end up with both! :005:
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I would think it would be far more irresponsible to have the pup put to sleep, just because its not a good example of the breed :huh: Nature is not something that we can interfere with too much, ok I accept that show people want to produce the finest example of the breed, but a dog can happily get by with a cleft pallette surely :huh:
But that's not the reason cleft palate puppies are sometimes PTS - it's because it can be a serious debilitating defect. If the cleft is not too serious, then yes there's every chance this pup can survive with a lot of care and surgery but sometimes the defect is so serious there is no choice, speaking as someone who has had to PTS a puppy for this very reason (some years ago now) and it certainly wasn't because the pup was not a good example of the breed :( I agree this pup should be given every chance and hopefully the outcome will be good for this little one but sometimes no matter how hard you try, you cannot save every pup born with this defect.
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But that's not the reason cleft palate puppies are sometimes PTS - it's because it can be a serious debilitating defect. If the cleft is not too serious, then yes there's every chance this pup can survive with a lot of care and surgery but sometimes the defect is so serious there is no choice, speaking as someone who has had to PTS a puppy for this very reason (some years ago now) and it certainly wasn't because the pup was not a good example of the breed :( I agree this pup should be given every chance and hopefully the outcome will be good for this little one but sometimes no matter how hard you try, you cannot save every pup born with this defect.
I realise that Jane :D just that in this particular instance(which I was referrinng to) the OP had already said that her vet seemed to think this pup had a good chance ;) and the OP was worried that she was being irresponsible by not having the pup put to sleep, as the pup wasn't a good example of the breed. I wasn's saying thats the case in all dogs born with a CP as obviousley CP vary in severity.
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Ann I really hope she makes it. Do you have a lot of experience in breeding? I think I would have taken the vets advice. Sorry but not being a good example of the breed wouldn't be good enough reason for me to PTS a pup but then I have no experience of breeding and would follow my heart and could not PTS a pup that had a chance of having a good life. I hope it all works out for you.
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.. just that in this particular instance(which I was referrinng to) the OP had already said that her vet seemed to think this pup had a good chance ;) and the OP was worried that she was being irresponsible by not having the pup put to sleep, as the pup wasn't a good example of the breed. I wasn's saying thats the case in all dogs born with a CP as obviousley CP vary in severity.
I appreciate that Emma but your comments did seem to be directed at breeders generally so I just wanted to put across the point that to PTS a puppy with a cleft is sometimes unavoidable and not done for shallow reasons. I know of puppies with apparently minor cleft palates who have not made it despite a breeder's best efforts - inhalation pneumonia is a risk when bottle feeding a pup with even a minor cleft and in such cases, it's far better to PTS then watch a pup die painfully. Hopefully this will not happen to the OP's pup and he will be one of the lucky ones :blink:
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I appreciate that Emma but your comments did seem to be directed at breeders generally
Jane, i'm sorry but I have to challenge you on that remark, it certainly wasn't directed at breeders generally ::) If you read the origional post and then my reply you will see, why I replied the way I did ;) I'm a bit annoyed tbh at the fact that you have taken my post out of context, I can assure you I replied to the particular circumstances that the OP wrote about, why would I direct at breeders in general?, what would I have to gain in doing that? My mind doesn't work like that :huh: I also never mentioned that breeders would do this for shallow reasons :huh:
I'm confused :huh: Can you point out to me which part you assumed I was referring to "breeders in general" please, then maybe I can understand what you mean?
ETA: I also hope this little girl pulls through.
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We had a pup a few years ago that was born with a cleft palette, we rung the vet and planned to take him in the next day to see what they thought, unfortunately he didn't make it through the night :'(, in most cases nature makes the decision for you.
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I'm a bit annoyed tbh at the fact that you have taken my post out of context, I can assure you I replied to the particular circumstances that the OP wrote about, why would I direct at breeders in general?, what would I have to gain in doing that? My mind doesn't work like that :huh:
Emma, I'm really not getting into an argument with you over this - what would be the point? You say you were talking only about the OP's specific case but it to me it reads like you were making some general comments (eg "a dog can get by with a cleft palate surely") . If you want to carry on having a go at me, please do so privately so we can keep this thread on topic. Thanks.
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Emma, I'm really not getting into an argument with you over this - what would be the point? You say you were talking only about the OP's specific case but it to me it reads like you were making some general comments (eg "a dog can get by with a cleft palate surely") . If you want to carry on having a go at me, please do so privately so we can keep this thread on topic. Thanks.
I am more than happy for the thread to continue for the benefit of the OP and the pup ;)
Jane, i'm really sorry that you have such a low opinion of me :'( Its not what I meant atall, but if thats what you say I meant, then I must have mustn't I ::)
Apologies to the OP for the way this has been taken off topic ;)
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Ann, good luck with the pup, hope she makes it :luv:
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Yes, good luck with her. ;)
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Good luck with the little one ,let us know how she's doing :D
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thanks guys, well she's made it through the night, and seems a little stronger,
she has put on over 1 once, which isn't lots but at least its something. :blink:
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Glad to hear she is still fighting :D
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Pleased to hear she has been given a chance and is still fighting. Fingers crossed for her :luv:
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Good luck with your little girl. :luv:
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Good luck little one. Hope you pull through. :luv: :luv:
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..sending some healing hugs her way x
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Good luck hope it all works out :luv:
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sending snuggles good wishes for the little puppy. :luv:
i had this with a litter of mine 3 weeks ago, :'( sadley one of my little puppies did not make it :'(, as it had a cleft palate, she could'nt even take mums first milk, i did sit up all night to hand feed her, to no avail, she lost weight, and became too weak, its the most hardest, but also kindest thing that i could have done, was to have her pts. it never gets any easier, i can assure you.
the vet came out to me, as puppy and mum was gettting distressed, and the vet had only given her less than 10 % survival, even before they could have opereated,( which vet said was'nt and option :'() ( they would have had to rehydrate her ),but was two weak to stand this, even if she had been strong enough, there was so many other pitfalls too, like fluid on lungs, ect, ect.
to hear a puppy cry , because it is so hungry is awful and will stay with me for life,
sometimes you can't always help them, even though you try everything, for my little puppy the best thing for her was to pts.
she was a good birth weight of 8.2 oz, but in less than 24 hours had gone down to just under 6 0z.
so sending all my love and best wishes, that your little puppy makes it. she obviously a little fighter. sending big hugs to your little one.
terri
x
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sending snuggles good wishes for the little puppy. :luv:
i had this with a litter of mine 3 weeks ago, :'( sadley one of my little puppies did not make it :'(, as it had a cleft palate, she could'nt even take mums first milk, i did sit up all night to hand feed her, to no avail, she lost weight, and became too weak, its the most hardest, but also kindest thing that i could have done, was to have her pts. it never gets any easier, i can assure you.
the vet came out to me, as puppy and mum was gettting distressed, and the vet had only given her less than 10 % survival, even before they could have opereated,( which vet said was'nt and option :'() ( they would have had to rehydrate her ),but was two weak to stand this, even if she had been strong enough, there was so many other pitfalls too, like fluid on lungs, ect, ect.
to hear a puppy cry , because it is so hungry is awful and will stay with me for life,
sometimes you can't always help them, even though you try everything, for my little puppy the best thing for her was to pts.
she was a good birth weight of 8.2 oz, but in less than 24 hours had gone down to just under 6 0z.
so sending all my love and best wishes, that your little puppy makes it. she obviously a little fighter. sending big hugs to your little one.
terri
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If only BYB's and farms etc were to read and acknowledge this story surely this mush have some effect. I cried just reading it never mind actually seeing this pup in the first place. Terri im so sorry to hear your sad sad story! :'(
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Ann best of luck with your little one. At least you can know you have given her every chance to make it - hoping she does.
Keep us posted.
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Just caught up with this thread, Ann - I dearly hope your baby girl pulls through :luv:
Terri- my heart goes out to you, your post has made me cry, hope the other puppys are doing well :luv:
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Oh Jarbaha ...that broke my heart :'( cant imagine how you must have felt (((HUG))) ...well done for giving your little bundle a chance of life ..thinking of you x
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Oh Jarbaha ...that broke my heart :'( cant imagine how you must have felt (((HUG))) ...well done for giving your little bundle a chance of life ..thinking of you x
me too :'( must have been truly awful :'(
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Ann I really hope your wee pup continues to grow stronger with every day. :luv:
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to lolajays, tracys, suzysu & jan/ billy.
thank you for your lovley messages.
i never meant to upset you by my post, it was just to say sometimes you can't always help puppies.
i care and great deal about what i do, i would have done and paid any thing to have kept that puppy.
it never gets any easier to loose any puppy, to have brought her into the world was lovely , but sometimes nature has a nasty sting in her tail. every one of my puppies is special, and i stand by all my puppies for life. thats just the sort of person i am.
it was awful, and although sometimes there is haertache along the way, there is also a lot of joy and happiness
once again thank you for your posts, loosing any puppy is devasting, and i can never put in words, how heart breaking it is. i cried like a baby when she was pts, but i know i did everything i could for her.
terri
x
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i never meant to upset you by my post,
I feel we need to hear posts like yours ;) It educates people about just how difficult the job of breeding is , & may help ensure that only the most dedicated people breed :D
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sending snuggles good wishes for the little puppy. :luv:
i had this with a litter of mine 3 weeks ago, :'( sadley one of my little puppies did not make it :'(, as it had a cleft palate, she could'nt even take mums first milk, i did sit up all night to hand feed her, to no avail, she lost weight, and became too weak, its the most hardest, but also kindest thing that i could have done, was to have her pts. it never gets any easier, i can assure you.
the vet came out to me, as puppy and mum was gettting distressed, and the vet had only given her less than 10 % survival, even before they could have opereated,( which vet said was'nt and option :'() ( they would have had to rehydrate her ),but was two weak to stand this, even if she had been strong enough, there was so many other pitfalls too, like fluid on lungs, ect, ect.
to hear a puppy cry , because it is so hungry is awful and will stay with me for life,
sometimes you can't always help them, even though you try everything, for my little puppy the best thing for her was to pts.
she was a good birth weight of 8.2 oz, but in less than 24 hours had gone down to just under 6 0z.
so sending all my love and best wishes, that your little puppy makes it. she obviously a little fighter. sending big hugs to your little one.
terri
x
Jarbaha I can't see the screen anymore! :'( So sorry to hear of your loss.
Hope your other little ones are doing well. My girl is still fighting for life, she is also 60z so very small like your one was.
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Just to let everyone know that she died in my arms at midnight last night... she caught inhalation pneumonia as she had green fluid coming out of her nose when she died :'(
i am utterly heartbroken but at the back of my mind I knew she was very weak and had a poor survival rate.
I can't help thinking that I should of done what lots of breeders were telling me to do and that was tube feed her to prevent the pneumonia, but i wasn't confident enough to do this :embarassed: thanks to everyones kind comments and advice.
rest in peace my little one :'(
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I'm so sorry, will be thinking of you. :'(
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Ann
I am so sorry to hear your news - you must be heartbroken. Sending you lots of hugs.
You gave her the best chance possible.
Run free little one
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so sorry to hear this ann -
we are thinking of you. You obviously did the best you could
xxxx
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Oh no poor you Ann you tried your very best for this little one. I am so sorry so very very sorry.
Run free little one.
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you gave your pup the best chance.. its at peace now . enjoy all the others even more as they are all so precious. :luv: I hope you feel better soon.. you did everything you could. and Ive tube fed lambs thousands of times and sadly the weaker ones often still die, life and death are often inextricably linked at such a young age. so try not to blame yourself....also if you dont know how to tube feed then you are in great danger of drowning the pup so you were right not to do it.
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Ann, you did everything you could, you tried your best for her, i'm so sorry she didn't make it :'(
Run free little one :luv:
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So sorry she didn't make it Ann :'(
Run free little girl :luv:
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So very sorry, but nature can be cruel sometimes. :'( You did your best.
Run free little one.
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Sorry to hear the news, I think you gave her your best shot, and for what it's worth I think if you had of tube fed her it may have only delayed the inevitable, as soon as she was weaning she may well have got aspiration pneumonia anyway.
You tried as hard as you could, I would not have felt comfortable inserting a tube myself, and I have passed many an naso gastric tube on humans, but this was a tiny newborn pup.
Run free little one. :'(
Take care Ann. :luv:
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:'( I'm speechless, run free little one and well done for being so brave
Hugs
Adele
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:embarassed:
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hi ann :'(, its jarbaha here, just read your post. i know exactley how you feel, :'( as like i said i had to have one pts 3 weeks ago with a cleft palate :'(.
i'm sure you are completely devestated, but you did everything you could for her, and she is now at peace.
my heart really goes out to you, :'(
terri
x
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So sorry your pup didn't make it, you gave her your best.
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I know how you feel :'( I'm sorry to hear of your loss. I had to make an awful decision to have a puppy pts at 3 weeks old with my last litter. A host of complications and trips backwards and forwards to the Vets and 3 weeks of fighting for her. It's the most awful decision I have ever had to make and I hope I never have to do it again :'(
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So sorry to hear your sad news :'(
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So sorry Ann :'(
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aww Ann so sorry to hear that ...you did the best you could for her (((HUG))) ...sleep peacefully little one x
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Sorry to hear your little girl didn't make it, Ann.
I think that this is why the vets say that puppies like this should be pts.
Human nature makes us want to try, but sometimes, I guess, we should listen to those who know.
I would do exactly as you have done, and as you know I have, but I still wonder if keeping them going is cruel, we cant know what pain or discomfort they feel.
Now enjoy your litter & I wish you all the very best, you have been a good person & you obviously love your dogs. I look forward to seeing photos of your babies as they grow.
all the very best . . .
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Very sorry Ann :'( :'(
Don't blame yourself, you did all you possibly could. She's at peace now :luv:
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I'm so sorry :'( You gave her the best possible chance.
Run free little one :luv:
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Aww Ann, that's so sad :'( I'm so sorry.
I hope your little ones and Mum are doing ok x
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So sad to see that :'( :'(
At least she died surrounded by love.
Best wishes to you :luv: :luv:
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Only just caught this thread - How sad that she didn't make it :'(
Run free little one, (((Hugs))) to you , Ann
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So sorry to read about your sad news
xxx
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Not been on for a few weeks and just caught up with this thread :'( :'( :'(
Just want you to know I'm thinking of you x
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sorry to hear your sad news, you deserve a medal for your hard work and trying so hard with the little one,
run free baby
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How sad; I'm so sorry your little pup didn't make it. :'(
Run free at the Bridge little girl.
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nature is very cruel sometimes. even with the best will in the world sometimes the problems for these little ones are too big to overcome.
You did your best ann, and acted with love and compassion for your dogs. best of luck with the rest of the litter, this little mite was just not meant to be :-\