Genetics & colours

[Shell]

This might be a really stupid question but I read in one of the other threads that one litter had 5 gold puppies and 2 black puppies .... is it normal to have a mixture of colors in a littler like this ?

Does this say anything about the genetics or the family tree of the puppies ?

If a bitch is gold and the dog is god and they have had two litters of completely gold puppies does that mean that all the ancestors have been gold or is it just pot luck?

Sorry if I sound completely stupid ! I'm very ignorant on the matter.                    

[Jane S]

Hi Shell

You don't sound stupid at all Colour genetics in Cockers is quite complex because there are so many colours in the breed but I will try & explain the basics as simply as I can. You can get a number of different colours in a litter depending on what colour genes each parent carries. In Cockers, black is the dominant colour & all other colours are called "recessives". For a recessive colour to come through, both parents must carry the gene for that colour. Two dogs of the same recessive colour mated together can only produce puppies of that recessive colour.

Gold is a recessive colour so for gold puppies to be born, both parents must either be gold themselves or carry the gene for gold. Two gold parents will always produce all gold puppies (except in very rare circumstances). Two black parents can produce some gold puppies if both carry the gold gene - if only one parent carries the gold gene, then all the puppies will be black. A black dog mated to a gold bitch will produce all black puppies if he does not carry the gold gene, but if he does, then around half the litter will be gold. A gold litter resulting from two gold parents does not mean all the dogs in the pedigree have been gold - this would be very unlikely. It's the fact that two golds have been mated together which makes the resulting litter all gold, although there could well be solid black ancestors in the background & possibly other colours too.

Hope this helps. I can go into more detail if you want but don't want to blind you with too much science to begin with

Jane                    

[FionaM]

Hi Jane

That's really interesting and colour genetics in cockers is something I know nothing about. Can you go into more detail, about parti-colours as well as solids  

I know that solid chocolate/liver is a really rare colour in show lines but where does it fit in?

I find this sort of stuff fascinating. I remember when I was doing biology at school and learning about hair and eye-colour in humans, I found it so interesting.

Thanks
Fiona                      

[*Jay*]

how do you know what colours a dog carries? Is it just a case of mating and seeing what is produced or is there a test that can be done? I got talking to one lady about her new pup(blue roan) who she was going to put with her bitch(orange roan). I asked what colours the litter were likely to be and she said the pup carries a lot of colours so is it a case of seeing what colours his ancestors have produced? I'm making no sense so will be quiet now


PS Is there a book on this subject as I think Iw ould find it quite interesting.                    

[Jane S]

I find this subject really interesting too - I did a whole study on it as part of a dog breeding course I completed some time ago so I can go on about it for hours unless someone stops me

Anyway, particolours are always recessive to solids so two particolours mated together can never produce solid puppies. However solids can carry the spotting gene (which produces the particolour effect) so two solids can produce particolour pups if both carry the necessary gene. Moving on to particolours specifically, the roan colouring is always dominant to the broken colours (eg black & white). Two black & whites mated together cannot produce blue roan puppies but two blue roans mated together can produce black & whites if both carry the right gene. The other particolours like orange roan & liver roan are recessive colours so as with the solid golds, two oranges can only produce orange roan puppies & two liver/chocolate roans can only produce liver/choc roans. However two blue roans mated together can produce a variety of different colours in the same litter as long as both parents carry the relevant genes. The tan gene that produces blue roan & tans & tricolours (in partis) & black & tans etc in solids is also recessive, so both parents have to carry the tan gene to be able to produce it.

Going back to the solid liver/chocolate, this is simply another recessive colour & it's so rare in show lines simply because so few show-bred Cockers carry the liver gene nowadays, though there are a handful of breeders who still have it in their breeding lines.  If you want some more info on Cocker coat colour inheritance, this Swedish site is quite good: http://w1.332.telia.com/~u33200262/article.htm

HTH

Jane                    

[FionaM]

Thanks Jane

I'm off to have a look at that Swedish site now  

Fiona                    

[Jane S]

how do you know what colours a dog carries? Is it just a case of mating and seeing what is produced or is there a test that can be done? I got talking to one lady about her new pup(blue roan) who she was going to put with her bitch(orange roan). I asked what colours the litter were likely to be and she said the pup carries a lot of colours so is it a case of seeing what colours his ancestors have produced? I'm making no sense so will be quiet now


PS Is there a book on this subject as I think Iw ould find it quite interesting.

Often you cannot tell exactly what colours a particular mating will produce until the pups have been born & it will be a matter of guesswork based on what colours have been produced in the past by dogs of that breeding. Often with well-known stud dogs, breeders know that they carry particular colours because of what they have produced in other litters & other times, they know they only produce one colour eg our older stud dog sires only blue roan & carries no other colours at all. We know this because he has been mated to a number of different bitches including orange roan & liver & white & has only ever produced blue pups (though his children from those bitches will all be carriers of the orange or liver gene so could produce these colours themselves in the future)

I'm sure in the future a DNA test will be developed to identify which colours a Cocker carries (as is the case in some breeds already) but I think this will make breeding less interesting. I quite like not always knowing what colours will come through

There aren't any books specifically available on Cocker coat colour inheritance but there are a few general books on canine genetics which cover the subject, though some are out of print now. My favourite book is Malcolm Willis' "Genetics of The Dog" which is sadly out of print but may be reprinted soon (sometimes you can pick up second hand copies if you're lucky) Other than that, there is Roy Robertson's "Genetics For Dog Breeders" which has just been reprinted & has a long section on colour inheritance.

Jane                    

[Pammy]

My older boys dad only produced blue roans and yet Jasper produces blue and blue and tan!! Don't know if he'll produce Orange Roan but it was one of the exciting parts of waiting for his puppies to be born - knowing firstly that they were strong and healthy and then what colours.

I remember doing colour genetics at school in biology too and foundit fascinating then.                    

[Jen]

what an interesting "conversation" this has been                    

[Shell]

Thanks Jane for your insight into this - I find it really fascinating !  It must be exciting anticipating the colours of a new littler.  

I would love to breed cockers - it must be extremely rewarding, but I guess you really have to know your stuff like Jane does!

Thanks again for your insight Jane.                    

[*Jay*]

I agree Shell. I'm fascinated by it - when we got Brook you should have seen the look on my face when we found out his dad was black I just had no clue I'm thinking about having a litter from the new addition so we are looking about 2-3 years down the line but I'm going to start the research now. Does anyone recommend any really informative books on the subject? I already have "The Book of The bitch", "Dog Breeding-The theory and the Practice" and "The Whelping and Rearing of Puppies-The complete Guide".                    

[Jane S]

You seem to have a good supply of reference books already Gill If I had to recommend another on breeding it would be "Canine Reproduction" by Phyllis Holst which is pretty comprehensive, but if you have the Book Of The Bitch, that covers the essentials anyway. Apart from the "mechanics" of breeding, there's lots to learn about Cockers generally - history, pedigrees, genetic defects etc. There's not one book that covers all these things in depth - most people learn as they go along, collecting books, pedigrees, club year books etc. It's a good idea to join the Cocker Club and also the Cocker Club of Scotland - you need a proposer & seconder for the Cocker Club but that need not be a problem as there are quite a few Cocker Club members here who could help                    

[Michele]

You seem to have a good supply of reference books already Gill If I had to recommend another on breeding it would be "Canine Reproduction" by Phyllis Holst which is pretty comprehensive, but if you have the Book Of The Bitch, that covers the essentials anyway. Apart from the "mechanics" of breeding, there's lots to learn about Cockers generally - history, pedigrees, genetic defects etc. There's not one book that covers all these things in depth - most people learn as they go along, collecting books, pedigrees, club year books etc. It's a good idea to join the Cocker Club and also the Cocker Club of Scotland - you need a proposer & seconder for the Cocker Club but that need not be a problem as there are quite a few Cocker Club members here who could help

The Book of The Bitch is my Bible
I'm a member of the Cocker Club if you need proposing or seconding Gill, happy to help                    

[*Jay*]

I printed out my application form for the Cocker Club of Scotland a few months ago but just haven't got round to sending it in yet...tut tut I went onto the website of the Cocker Club and noticed that I needed two people to propose me but I don't know anybody who could help so my wee heart just sank like the titanic Would they accept proposals from people who haven't met me? I have a few books on Cockers(admittedly some I haven't begun to read yet) "Cocker Spaniels Today" appears to look like the most comprehensive, the others are just like a guide to owning a cocker etc. But again, if anyone has a particular favourite, spill the beans                    

[Jane S]

Hi Gill

You've already got one volunteer to propose you in Michele -I'm quite happy to be the other one if you like, just let us know. Basically the system exists to prevent known "undesirables" like puppy farmers from joining, so I think you'll be ok

If you really want an in-depth book on Cockers, get Peggy Grayson's "History of The Cocker Spaniel" - it's packed full of information & photos from the early days up until fairly recently. It's not that widely available but you should be able to order it from Amazon or other book suppliers. The Joyce Caddy book is probably the best general Cocker book available, although I like Jennifer Lloyd Carey's too (I think it's just called Cocker Spaniels)