What do you think about sables?

[Maddox]

Hello!

Here an article about sable cockers:

"Sable Coat Color In Cockers"
http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/pdf_extract/29/2/67


Sable - back to the roots
"Elmbury Cinnamon Teal" is the ancestor of every modern sable English Cocker in europe.

The origin of the sable coloured cockers is unknown. We just know, that in the 80's Mrs. Siglinde Rödel (Germany) imported 2 sable bitches from the USA. This was the beginning of the sable cockers in europe. But the two bitches were not the first sables - I published an article written in the year 1938 above. At this time English and American Cockers were not seperatet. And he is describing a sable cocker! So it's an old colour. But the colour was not common at this time.

The gap was a dog from GB. Mr. Dick Squier imported a black and tan from England to the USA. But the black and tan wasn't black and tan - he grow up and Mr. Squiers reconized that he's a sable. His name was Elmbury Cinnamon Teal - born 16/01/1976, breeder: Roger Hall-Stones. He is the father of every sable you find in europe today!



(Squier's Little Surprise - one of the 2 imports from the USA)

They are very trendy in Germany - many people like to have a sable or a sable roan. You can see them in every show ring. What do you think about sables and sable roans? Do you like them? Are here some breeders of those colours? Are they shown in the UK?

Yours
Anne

[Jane S]

Hi Anne

It's no problem to discuss sables here (there are several threads on this subject if you do a Forum Search) but we need to be careful about posting copyrighted material and photos without their owners' permission. Are these your photos? And did the text come from a book or a website? If the photos belong to other people, I'm afraid we will have to remove them although you can post links to them if they appear on other sites

Thanks

[Maddox]

The Fotos of Kennel "vom Eschenweg" are mine, the other pictures are from www.cocker.no - the first text is out of a book and has no copyright, but I copied it from another website. I will place a link to it. I hope that's ok?

[Maddox]

Here is another picture of the sable roan (Kennel vom Eschenweg) I took it at a show

[Jane S]

That's ok but probably best not to post any more photos as this is on the discussion part of the forum

Here is a fairly recent thread on the sable colour : http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=57393.0

We do have sables in the UK including the roans but only a handful have been shown so far with moderate success. I'm not "against" sables but don't believe it's ever good for a breed when any breeders start breeding purely for colour, especially when some then start marketing the pups as "rare" or "new" and asking high prices for them When this happens, it won't be long before the puppy farmers sit up and take notice of this new money making opportunity & try to get hold of sables to breed from

[Maddox]

OK I'm sorry  I will not publish more pictures. I just wanted to show the different sables, because sable is not = sable. There are many varities - dark sable, chocolate sable, golden sable, sable roan, sable orange roan, sable chocolate roan... only sable and tan is genetically not possible.

I'm in the same opinion than you - here is the same problem. Some sables have got great qualities and they are successfull in show ring (I remember to World Winner and Multi Champion "Quo Vadis vom Heidebusch"  he was a great sable!) but most of them not. Sables have got a large community here and there are some breeders who make a lot of money with the colour. Although it's easy to breed sable, you only need a sable and a red one or a cocker who carries sable and a red one - the result will be sable puppies. It's much more difficult to breed good chocolates and chocolates with tan, because you need the chocolate-gene on both sides.

But sable cockers are more expensive than a good golden one or a black one. I can't understand it... and sable roan... puuh, you can't pay for it! It's a hype - it's new! But I don't like the colour sable roan - I think we have so much beautiful colours! We don't need more to make money with.

[silkstocking]

I really HATE the idea of puppy farmers getting on the rare breed bandwagon

If I was looking to get another cocker, (ofcourse temprement is most important to me) but if I was faced with a choice between a sable and any other colour with great temperment - I would pick the other colour every time

[bajoleth]

I have never seen some of the sable varients you have posted and to be honest prefer the more traditional colours. I do however like the solid sable (not sure that is a term?) where they have a solid colour with a sort of 2 tone effect, I think Murphy a pup on here is a sable and he is beautiful
 I agree that we do not need to be breeding for more colour variations as there are plenty of fab ones as it is

[Maddox]

I do however like the solid sable (not sure that is a term?)

Yes, they are solid sables. I like them also more, some of them are really beautiful. It's easy to bred dark sables, but chocolate sables are not easy. You need the gene of chocolate colour and sable colour. Chocolate sable is really rare - the typical dark sable is not rare.

[KellyS]

I don't mind the sable colour and have seen some quite pretty ones, sable puppies always look cute too... but doubt i would ever introduce the colour into my solid lines...

What horrifies me is some of the prices being paid for cockers of that colour!! I can't understand it and hope puppy famers don't cotton on to it too... it's only a colour and has nothing to do with the type, structure, temperament and quality of the dog...

[Mazame]

I don't like this colour, especially their head : they usually have long heads without any stop. I am used to seeing some solid sable dogs at shows in Belgium and they are usually really bad constructed.

There was a buzz in Germany in the 80's when the Squier's were imported but then, lots of breeders stopped breeding this colour.

Lots of sable dogs were born in UK before Elmbury Cinnamon Til but they were registered as black and tan or killed.

[Maddox]

Yes many of them have bad quality, because the breeders just looked to the colour they expected, not to the quality of the parents. But some breeders bred gorgeous sables:

http://www.volcatia.de/english-cocker-spaniels/assets/images/heidebusch_quovadis2.jpg

http://www.volcatia.de/english-cocker-spaniels/assets/images/heidebusch_quovadis4.jpg

http://www.dollardhoeve.com/images/deckrueden/Jelle/image004.jpg

http://www.dollardhoeve.com/images/deckrueden/Jelle/image018.jpg

http://www.cockersite.com/MM_Dogs/Bild_King_2007.jpg

all of them are going back to Squier's Little Surprise and Elmbury Cinnamon Tail! Why were the puppies killed?

[sharonmansfield]

I thought I saw one at Crufts this year and thought it an unusual colour. Did not however know there were so many variants I thought sable was sable.

[loppylugs]

I love the solid sable,think they are gorgeous and would love to have one.

[Jeanette]

I'm sure if I saw a nice one I would love it but I don't really like the colour which may be a contradictory in terms coming from someone who has a black and tan.   I do prefer all solid colour cockers though and am sure if I saw enough of the solid colour ones I would love them as well.   I like this one you posted http://www.volcatia.de/english-cocker-spaniels/assets/images/heidebusch_quovadis4.jpg but not keen on the "wishy washy" look