Why do breeders Endorse?

[seaangler]

I to agree in some ways as to what Poppy is saying....

But on the other hand as to what breeders have been doing in the past,Are not breeders to blame for the miss developing of some of the breeds the Bulldog,pug,Cavalier spaniel, the Alsatian. You only have to look at one particular post look at the the Alsatian on how they look back some years ago and as they are now....

And ask your self  as to why the BBC pulled out of crufts the breeders are no angels in my books other wise they would have had there say on the day out side crufts  instead of running away from the Media and the cameras...Was that NOT top breeders and judges of the show!!!(why run) did they have some thing to hide!! all as fell by the way side now gone quiet....But still going on....But now with designers breeds until they breed the hell out of them

[Jane S]

Chris, please don't turn this into a "bash the show breeder" thread - this is a thread about endorsements not how terrible show breeders are (you can't think they are that bad though as you have just bought a puppy from one ) If you want to have another go at show breeders and Crufts, then please start a thread on the General Dog Discussion board.

[Neon]

To be honest with a pet dog that really wouldn't worry me. I think if you wish to show and breed all you need to do is look for one that isn't.  

Agreed and IMO this sums it up nicely.  I have no intention of breeding or showing so any endorsement would not have deterred me from buying a sound healthy puppy.  If I had wanted to breed or show, I would have looked for a suitable litter with no endorsements or had it written in the sale contract that the breeder would lift the endorsement, provided I met the breeder's criteria - simples!!  No matter what endorsements may be in place, there will always be unscrupulous people who ignore these and go ahead and breed.  Nothing is foolproof, unfortunately, but endorsements do help to deter this.

[Jane S]

No matter what endorsements may be in place, there will always be unscrupulous people who ignore these and go ahead and breed.  Nothing is foolproof, unfortunately, but endorsements do help to deter this.

Absolutely

I forgot to mention before for those that want to make this about show breeders, it really isn't anyway as there are breeders who don't show at all but but use the same kind of contracts and endorsements that I do.

[penfold]

I am going to sit on the fence a little (can't help it, I am a Libra  )

With regards to Seaanglers post, I think it is unfair to tar all breeders with the same brush..in fact, I would go further and say that the vast majority of breeders (certainly that you would find at Crufts anyway) have the best interests of the breed at heart and would be horrified if they thought anything they were doing was detrimental at all.  However, e.g in a numerically large breed such as CKCS, which is also popular with puppy farms, all you need are a small % of irresponsible breeders (be they show kennels, hobby kennels, BYB, PF, pet breeders, whatever) to breed without care and you automatically can have a large number of genetically damaged puppies into the gene pool.  Also, with regards to 'designer dog' breeding I would suggest that the vast vast majority of these aren't bred by those who would not be exhibiting pure breds at crufts!!!!!

I think * what I am trying to say is that you can't just tar everyone with the same brush.  There are, as we all know, different types of breeders.  i suppose the easiest way to differentiate would be responsible v. irresponsible.  And yes, I do accept that you will get some irresponsible breeders amongst the showing fraternity and also some extremely responsible pet breeders.
 

   Ooops, don't think I am putting this well at all, hope it makes sense - I'll stop no before I wind myself in more circles  

[Jane S]

I think * what I am trying to say is that you can't just tar everyone with the same brush.  There are, as we all know, different types of breeders.  i suppose the easiest way to differentiate would be responsible v. irresponsible.  And yes, I do accept that you will get some irresponsible breeders amongst the showing fraternity and also some extremely responsible pet breeders.
 

   Ooops, don't think I am putting this well at all, hope it makes sense - I'll stop no before I wind myself in more circles  

On the contrary, you've put it very well

[poppy1407]

however from what it seems from reading this thread is that owners of dogs that show their dogs think they effectively seem to have a right to breed over someone who does not show- is that correct. I see it as anyone has a right to breed from their dog providing all the measures are put in place such as health testing, good care of the puppies and responsible selling.

No not true at all. Of course you're competely entitled to your opinion that anyone should be free to breed whatever their motives in breeding but I'm afraid I don't share that view and it's nothing to do with thinking I'm superior and have more right to breed than those that don't show - it's believing very strongly that there are too many litters being born for no good reason by people who have no interest in the breed apart from breeding them and that's not how it should be...

thats fair enough however just because you dont show does not mean you dont have an interest in the breed- I agree their are lots of breeders who breed just to make money and that I do not agree with. But say I wanted to breed which I dont- I have an interest in the breed and its welfare, I dont show but am concidering, say I was to breed a litter of cockers with health tested parents, had a mentor, provided the best care for the pups, vetted homes to make sure suitable and kept a pup for myself and I did this because they were my dogs and I wanted the oppurtunity to experience having a litter of pups and keep myself a pup. who is to say this is wrong?

I agree there are many dogs on the internet and its terrible but just because show breeders dont advertise so blatently and its more word of mouth does not mean there are not 100's porb  thousands of pups been born by show breeder that dont come up to scratch t keep so get sold on- so personally dont see the difference!!

I think the main thing is the welfare of the dogs concerned and Im all for that and do not agree with breeding for profit but like penfold says not everyone should be tarred with the same brush

[seaangler]

I am sorry... I was not knocking breeders as there are two sides to every story and as to why endorsement are put into place, But it does not mean that i'm agreeing in its entirety to endorsements.

Quote(you can't think they are that bad though as you have just bought a puppy from one )

 Yes i have brought a pup from a breeder..I also rang a breeder not far away from me who has a fantastic reputation in the field spaniel field to ask for her advice about my pup...Thease breeds do not pop up every five mints unlike cocker's and springers!!!And ware else would you find one apart from a reparable breeder!!! They are NOT your back door dog after all..

[seaangler]

penfold ..... I did understand your post

[Jane S]

thats fair enough however just because you dont show does not mean you dont have an interest in the breed- I agree their are lots of breeders who breed just to make money and that I do not agree with. But say I wanted to breed which I dont- I have an interest in the breed and its welfare, I dont show but am concidering, say I was to breed a litter of cockers with health tested parents, had a mentor, provided the best care for the pups, vetted homes to make sure suitable and kept a pup for myself and I did this because they were my dogs and I wanted the oppurtunity to experience having a litter of pups and keep myself a pup. who is to say this is wrong?

I haven't said anywhere that to be a responsible breeder, you need to show your dog - I've said you should have a deeper involvement in a breed than just wanting to breed just for the sake of it (that could be showing or any number of other activities) I have not said that all show breeders are wonderful or that all breeders who don't show are irresponsible - you seem to have drawn those conclusions but it's not what I've actually said. This started off being a discussion about endorsements and that's how I'll leave it - as a breeder, I have a right to place endorsements if I want to and choose the type of homes I want for my pups. I also have the right not to lift endorsements on pet puppies - anybody who has one of our pups is fully aware of this and has to sign to say they accept this. None has ever objected (if they did, they of course would be totally free to go elsewhere for a puppy and indeed I would encourage them to do so)

I feel like I'm bashing my head slightly against the proverbial brick wall here so think I will get on with some work now -I've been putting it off for too long

[LynneB]

thats fair enough however just because you dont show does not mean you dont have an interest in the breed- I agree their are lots of breeders who breed just to make money and that I do not agree with. But say I wanted to breed which I dont- I have an interest in the breed and its welfare, I dont show but am concidering, say I was to breed a litter of cockers with health tested parents, had a mentor, provided the best care for the pups, vetted homes to make sure suitable and kept a pup for myself and I did this because they were my dogs and I wanted the oppurtunity to experience having a litter of pups and keep myself a pup. who is to say this is wrong?

I haven't said anywhere that to be a responsible breeder, you need to show your dog - I've said you should have a deeper involvement in a breed than just wanting to breed just for the sake of it (that could be showing or any number of other activities) I have not said that all show breeders are wonderful or that all breeders who don't show are irresponsible - you seem to have drawn those conclusions but it's not what I've actually said. This started off being a discussion about endorsements and that's how I'll leave it - as a breeder, I have a right to place endorsements if I want to and choose the type of homes I want for my pups. I also have the right not to lift endorsements on pet puppies - anybody who has one of our pups is fully aware of this and has to sign to say they accept this. None has ever objected (if they did, they of course would be totally free to go elsewhere for a puppy and indeed I would encourage them to do so)

I feel like I'm bashing my head slightly against the proverbial brick wall here so think I will get on with some work now -I've been putting it off for too long

Hear hear.........I too endorse and will continue to do so.

[karen488]

 I just think we have way too many litters being born in this country and that there has been an explosion in BYB & commercial breeding (possibly due to the way the internet now makes it easy for such breeders to sell or attempt to sell their pups) I don't believe for one minute that good permanent homes exist for all these puppies

(sorry can't do the quotey thing properly) this is maybe a separate issue. Maybe the kennel club should start limiting the no. Of puppies they register each year?

[LynneB]

I just think we have way too many litters being born in this country and that there has been an explosion in BYB & commercial breeding (possibly due to the way the internet now makes it easy for such breeders to sell or attempt to sell their pups) I don't believe for one minute that good permanent homes exist for all these puppies

(sorry can't do the quotey thing properly) this is maybe a separate issue. Maybe the kennel club should start limiting the no. Of puppies they register each year?

Most of the BYB and commercial breeders do not register puppies. Also puppies born of endorsed parents cannot be registered. It is up to the buyers to buy from reputable breeders

[penfold]

I just think we have way too many litters being born in this country and that there has been an explosion in BYB & commercial breeding (possibly due to the way the internet now makes it easy for such breeders to sell or attempt to sell their pups) I don't believe for one minute that good permanent homes exist for all these puppies

(sorry can't do the quotey thing properly) this is maybe a separate issue. Maybe the kennel club should start limiting the no. Of puppies they register each year?

I was reading Our Dogs last week and they were going on about how the numbers of KC registered pups have fallen but the number of enquiries on the KC find a puppy service has increased dramatically.  I *think* it was Ronnie Irvine (ex head of KC) who was saying that surely it is better for decent breeders to breed more litters to fulfill a demand rather than novice puppy buyers being pushed into the arms of puppy farms due to a shortage of good quality, well reared puppes from decent, responsible breeders. 

However, as you say, as to whether these prospective owners would all be deemed to be 'decent' homes is another matter   

Its a hard circle to square I suppose.  If there is pent up, decent, demand then it would be better that new owners got pups from responsible breeders rather than buying a bundle of trouble from a puppy farmer.  IS it more of a case that there are too many puppies 'overall' being bred...e.g SBT, mongrels etc, whilst the public want specific breeds?

[Christal]

What I didn't, and still don't, understand is the breeders who state that they will not lift the endorsement UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.

I've seen adverts for puppies with this stated, which is why I asked the question in the first place.   I find it really strange and just wondered if there was a particular reason for this.  From the answers it appears there isn't.

I thought we already said that you'd have to ask the breeders concerned what their reasons are?? I've already said why I wouldn't lift endorsements for puppies sold as pets but you said this wasn't what you meant so I'm at a loss really to understand what adverts you're referring to? Are you referring to puppies specifically being advertised for showing where endorsements wont be lifted? Can't say I've seen those kind of ads but then I generally avoid the free ad sites as I find them too depressing and not the best places to source a good breeder Also most good show breeders don't need to use those sites and are sensible enough not to advertise pups for show/breeding when this cannot be guaranteed.

I never mentioned Free Add sites.  I mentioned KC site.

The reason I asked on here was because I thought that someone knowledgeable would be able to explain something that didn't make a great deal of sense to me.  NOT because I'll definitely show,or breed, but because I saw puppies advertised at £700, that the breeder was saying could only go to
 'pet homes - will not lift any endorsements so don't ask'
I'm hardly likely to enquire after that statement as to 'why'