Billy - End Of My Tether

[Gilly]

I really hope the behaviourist can help Jan   It sounds like you have reached a turning point where something must be done and the "fun" has gone from your relationship and that's very sad. Good Luck on Wednesday.

[Lottie]

How very sad for you

When we got our Welly as a rescue a few months ago we had to really be strict with the NILIFF rules and he would whine and really want attention - it was heart breaking but we knew it was not in his best interest to indulge him. He was honestly happy once he got the hang of it - like you say he would give up pawing and lie in his bed - then he could relax as he knew where he stood.

Very good luck with Billy, you are doing the right thing  

[Jan/Billy]

I really really really do not know what i would do if it wasn't for this site.It is so good to get good honest advice.

 Someone said to me today if Billy was their dog it would be PTS    as in their opinion No dog should ever ever bite its owners as once it does it has crossed the line that a dog should never cross.

 Someone else said if their dog bit them it would do it only once because it would get such a good hiding it would never even think of doing it again    .

Neither or these people were of any help what so ever, they just made me feel bad and fed up . The only help I have had is from my behaviourist and you guys.I really do appreciate it. I just can't begin to explain how horrible i feel around him   but at the same time i just want to pick him up and cuddle him.

Deep down i am worried we may have some how brought this on by treating more like a human than a dog . No wonder he thinks he is one of us.

I am hoping like mad that the behaviourist can help sort him out, i would pay her every penny i had if i thought she had a miracle cure to bring back my old Billy.

Will let you know tomorrow what she said.  

[Jan/Billy]

oh no!!        


I have been reading puppyalert web site which is an anti puppy farming site. The owner of the site has written her story about how she had to have her cocker spaniel Jake put to sleep when he was diagnosed with Rage Syndrome. She also later found out that Jakes brother was put to sleep too diagnosed with the same.

The SIRE and DAM pedigree names are listed on the puppy alert web site and Jake's  SIRE is actually Billy's great grandad            This is not good new is it.

I am not sure if i am allowed to mention the pedigree name on here? but there are lots of other names in there with the same prefix so either way its in their somewhere.

I just can't believe what i have read now, i am gutted, i know i shouldn't panic but i know something is not right here.  

The more I look at billy's pedigree the more i see it is just a joke. So much of it does not seem right.

[speedyjaney]

Awww Jan, it must be so hard for you. you obviously love Billy so much and want to do the right thing for him. You have the appointment tomorrow (well today now)with the behavourist and I would see what she has to say and take it from there.

Rage is rare and even tho some of Billys relatives have been diagnosed with it, it doesn't mean Billy has it too. Wait and see if he improves after seeing the specialist tomorrow.

I know its easy for me to say all this as I am not going through it, I do sympathise and wish you all the best in finding a solution for Billy.

Maybe you could contact Linda who runs the rage site? I am sure she will be able to offer advise and support on Rage.

All the best and I look forward to hearing how the session goes.

Jane

(I am posting at this stupid hour as I am in New York with work and its only 9.15 here)

[Petra]

Oh Jan, I can't even begin to imagine how you must be feeling..... you must be so worried, confused, upset and anxious....
Unfortunately I cannot offer you any advice, but I am thinking of you and will keep everything crossed for a positive outcome to all this.

Please let us know how you get on,

[Penel]

Hi Jan,
I'm really sorry to hear you are still having such a difficult time with Billy.
Can I ask what you feed him on please - you mentioned his favourite Bakers chewy - Bakers foods are notorious for being full of additives and colours which can make some dogs extremely hyper.
If you are not already feeding him on a simpler diet I would discuss this with the behaviourist - you need to have him on a simple food like Burns - without any colourings and chemical preservatives in it.  Diet can make a huge difference to behaviour too.
Good luck with the behaviourist and let us know what happens,

[lyn]

jan please please don't assume the worst just because of his pedigree.my last dog was an old english and i found out she was a puppy farm dog too.she came to me with many many psychological problems i am going to tell you now all about her and my struggle for the first couple of years.

our old dog had died and after a while i decided to get another dog for company as all the children were in full time school.i wanted a cocker but oh wanted an old english sheepdog.at first we argued about this but a friend of mine had an oes and he was amazing with her kids so i agreed.
oh came home one day with a phone number for an oes puppy so i called and they gave me an address in london and the next morning we set off to buy her.i was very excited.when we got to the road i couldn't understand what was going on as there were no houses just shops.anyway to cut a long story short she was in a pet shop.i cannot describe just how shocked i was i didn't think pet shops were allowed to sell dogs or cats.
i walked in that shop to what i can only describe as heartbreak.there were puppies and kittens of all descriptions thee and right at the back of the shop i saw my maisie,jan i don't know what happened to me it was like a bolt from the blue.there was a 12 wk oes little boy and maisie who was 5mths.maisie picked me and against my better judgement i bought her.it was the BEST money i have ever spent in all my life.
at home and over time it was clear maisie had many problems,she refused point blank to go for a walk and it took many years to convince her it was fun to go out.she had lots of skin problems all her life and i would never trust her with kids unsupervised.she was frightened of cars,sneezing,newspapers,xmas decs,balloons loud noises and many more.she was hyper until she was about two(though she never seemed to grow up and stayed very puppyish all her life.i was advised by a vet to have her pts on two occaisions. he said her psychological probs were forever and she would never lead a full life.i found out she was a puppy farm dog some months after we got her.
maisie was the best dog ever.for all her probs and all my tears those first few years. she loved us all and we loved her, ok there were probs but i stuck it out with her and she rewarded me a million times over.
maisie had to be pts in july this year she was 11.i can say hand on heart i have never been so upset in my whole life,just writing this now i am crying for her.i look forward to going to bed each night in the hope that she comes back to me in a dream and we can spend a few precious minutes together again.i didn't even grieve like this when my dad died.
i think maisie was special because of her problems which resulted in a bond i had with her that  will never be broken.i know she waits at the bridge for me just like she waited at the window for me when she was here.
don't give up jan please

[jools]

Hi Jan,
I'm really sorry to hear you are still having such a difficult time with Billy.
Can I ask what you feed him on please - you mentioned his favourite Bakers chewy - Bakers foods are notorious for being full of additives and colours which can make some dogs extremely hyper.
If you are not already feeding him on a simpler diet I would discuss this with the behaviourist - you need to have him on a simple food like Burns - without any colourings and chemical preservatives in it.  Diet can make a huge difference to behaviour too.
Good luck with the behaviourist and let us know what happens,

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Some of you will know that I have a puppy farmed girl called Millie. She has behaviour issues not unlike, but not as severe as Billy's. We were advised to feed Millie on dry food, and to ensure that the food we give ger has a low protein content (under 20%)

We tried Burns, but my 2 weren't too keen on it. We are now on James Well Beloved and they are both doing well on it.

I cannot tell you just how much impact puppy farming has on a dog's behaviour. Our second dog, Bramble, came from a well known breeder. She has a totally different nature to Millie.

I'm interested in the treating him like a person point. Because Millie was puppy farmed, and came to us with loads of physical and mental problems, we treated her like the queen. We allowed her on our bed / sofa and to do anything she wanted.

While this works with "normal" cockers, this, we have found out, was the worst thing we could have done for Millie. She bacame more and more aggressive with, what she saw as having more and more control.

Things are still very difficult at times, but it is generally when our guard has slipped and we have relaxed the rules with Millie.

Puppy farmers have a lot to answer to!!!!!

[PennyB]

I cannot tell you just how much impact puppy farming has on a dog's behaviour. Our second dog, Bramble, came from a well known breeder. She has a totally different nature to Millie.

I'm interested in the treating him like a person point. Because Millie was puppy farmed, and came to us with loads of physical and mental problems, we treated her like the queen. We allowed her on our bed / sofa and to do anything she wanted.

While this works with "normal" cockers, this, we have found out, was the worst thing we could have done for Millie. She bacame more and more aggressive with, what she saw as having more and more control.

Things are still very difficult at times, but it is generally when our guard has slipped and we have relaxed the rules with Millie.

Puppy farmers have a lot to answer to!!!!!

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Am not saying the situation is the same here but sadly this can also happen whether puppy farmed or not whatever the dog as many owners often treat their dogs like humans (one vet I know often gives as an example the number of yorkies they get in to be pts by their elderly owners who treat their dogs so much like humans that the dog becomes more agressive and out of control but they can't see that their own behaviour is partly responsible here). The best advice I remember the most from the breeder I got my two from was about not spoiling them. I have 2 very different cockers from the same breeder, one who is extremely confident and I need to keep in check, she's basically not a 1st time owners dog (she was a very scary pup/young adult), the other very laid back who would never want to take control anywhere no matter what you do.

As others have said rage is rare but overconfident cockers aren't. Personally I would try a variety of different things and not just rely on behaviour modification (yours and Billy's). All the TTouch people I've spoken to have mentioned using flower remedies (a mixture of them, not just Bach's), essential oils etc. in addition to TTouch and behaviour modification.

[jools]

Understand and agree with what you're saying Penny, but with a dog like Millie, her behaviour isn't just down to treating her like a person. In her case, her breeding and lack of socialisation played the major part in how she is.
One thing Linda from the RS Centre commented on in Millie's line is the "red" this and "golden" that....there did not apprear to be ant particolours in her line, something I'm told "good" breeders of solids do from time to time.

I'm sure it was you who put me on to NILIF, which is fantastic.

We have started (yesterday) a herbal remedy suggested by our vet for Millie. It's called Scullcap and Velarium. I managed to get the first dose down her neck, but she then got wise and almost took my hand off when I tried to give her the sevond one! I have started to grind the tablets up and put them in a little "special" dog food.

[Cob-Web]

I think its a shame if all indescriminately bred cockers (or any other dog) are tarrred with the same brush - it must be really disheartening for a new owner of a pup who may have inadvertantly bought a pup from less than ideal cicumstances  

I do not doubt that a small minority of puppies from litters that have been bred indescriminately may grow up to exhibit behavioural problems that can be attributed to their genetics in some way or another. I also agree that early socialisation is important and can impact on the way in which a dog views the world.

These are a tiny minority of the whole, though - and I think the issue should be kept in proportion    In every town, there will be far fewer dogs (of any breed) bred by what we refer to as 'reputable ' breeders - ones who only breed dames which are sound in health and temperment,  who select the sire based on the genetics and temperment of the dame and who provide a comprehensive socialisation programme for their litters.

Despite their "less than ideal start" in life, the majority of these dogs are well balanced, well integrated into their families and never experience a controversial moment in their lives  

I know that if you own a dog that develops behavioural problems, it seems really unfair that out of all the dogs without problems, your dog was not so lucky    I have experienced the huge raft of different emotions when your dog becomes unpredictable and/or aggressive, and the desire to find an explaination for it.

For a long time, I was very negative about rescue dogs, because that was the "reason" I attributed to Shebas aggression; but over time I have accepted that it was not the reason; and not all rescue dogs will become unpredictable. Similarly, I hope that people don't assume all puppy-farmed dogs to develop problems, because many don't. I am not suggesting people buy indescriminately bred dogs - but if someone has, temperment problems are not inevitable, althuogh I accept the risk of health or temperment problems is greater.

[Cob-Web]

I managed to get the first dose down her neck, but she then got wise and almost took my hand off when I tried to give her the sevond one! I have started to grind the tablets up and put them in a little "special" dog food.

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Just to add:

When I was giving Molo his antibiotics last week, I discovered that if I wrapped them it in half a slice of processed cheese (the orange stuff you buy to go in burgers) he would stop eating his dinner is his haste to consume it - it didn't touch the sides so he didn't notice the pill  

[lyn]

I think its a shame if all indescriminately bred cockers (or any other dog) are tarrred with the same brush - it must be really disheartening for a new owner of a pup who may have inadvertantly bought a pup from less than ideal cicumstances 

I do not doubt that a small minority of puppies from litters that have been bred indescriminately may grow up to exhibit behavioural problems that can be attributed to their genetics in some way or another. I also agree that early socialisation is important and can impact on the way in which a dog views the world.

These are a tiny minority of the whole, though - and I think the issue should be kept in proportion    In every town, there will be far fewer dogs (of any breed) bred by what we refer to as 'reputable ' breeders - ones who only breed dames which are sound in health and temperment,  who select the sire based on the genetics and temperment of the dame and who provide a comprehensive socialisation programme for their litters.

Despite their "less than ideal start" in life, the majority of these dogs are well balanced, well integrated into their families and never experience a controversial moment in their lives 

I know that if you own a dog that develops behavioural problems, it seems really unfair that out of all the dogs without problems, your dog was not so lucky    I have experienced the huge raft of different emotions when your dog becomes unpredictable and/or aggressive, and the desire to find an explaination for it.

For a long time, I was very negative about rescue dogs, because that was the "reason" I attributed to Shebas aggression; but over time I have accepted that it was not the reason; and not all rescue dogs will become unpredictable. Similarly, I hope that people don't assume all puppy-farmed dogs to develop problems, because many don't. I am not suggesting people buy indescriminately bred dogs - but if someone has, temperment problems are not inevitable, althuogh I accept the risk of health or temperment problems is greater.

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i agree

[jools]

It would be good to hear from COL members who have bought puppy farmed dogs and who have had positive experiences with their behaviour. I have only spoken to people who have similar experience as me with their puppy farmed dogs. It would be great to hear the other side of the coin.

Having lived this nightmare for a year and a half, I have grown very cynical about being able to turn around a dog as screwed up as the likes of Miss Millie.

Just to add, my own experience is that it's the other way around...it's a minority of these dogs who have no behavioural problems. Many of Millie's litter mates have been P.T.S. due to behaviour issues.