Pet Corrector: views please

[Karma]

From what my parents have told me, I am sure that methods of this ilk are what have contributed to their Collie's serious anxiety problems... she was a nervous puppy, and did not cope at all with these methods being used at the puppy classes they attended (and was subsequently banned from because she was "too disruptive").    It has taken my parents years to help their dog overcome these anxieties, including a spell on the doggie version of Zoloft.  Have now introduced my Dad to clicker training to try and get her over some of her residual fears....  

Puppies will be puppies, and as long as you are consistent, they will learn what is acceptable behaviour.

[CarolineL]

My training group - which has a dog behavourist attending - suggests for unwanted behaviour such as biting and chewing is to fill a small plastic bottle with pebbles and as soon as they go to start biting get someone to shake it - the noise should make them stop, quickly make a fuss of them and give them favourite toy or treat as a reward for stopping ......they also suggest the use of a water spray for unwanted behaviour.  Surely the use of thespray  collar is a similar thing?

This is a great board but I have been shot down in the past for suggesting alternative things - only to be told ' that you will find not many people on here will approve of this'  so please don't shoot me down in flames.

Hi Jenza

What your dog behaviourist is suggesting are called negative aversives. The problem with them is your dog/puppy could associate YOU with them, rather than the unwanted behaviour.

The best way to train your dog is to use positive reinforcement - or, as you would with a child, ignore the bad behaviour, reward the good.

Owning a dog is a learning curve and I am only aware of this from what I have learnt through the board, nowadays, if any behaviourist suggested using such techniques I would find a different trainer/behaviourist who only used positive techniques  

[daunting]

not a training group i would ever take a pup or dog of mine too 

i have found clicker training to be the best method of training and gets good results and some quick ones depending on what is being trained - did take me a little while to gt my timing right on using the clicker and would hate to think of the consequences of some behaviours if i had mistimed using the other methods!!

[ali]

My training group - which has a dog behavourist attending - suggests for unwanted behaviour such as biting and chewing is to fill a small plastic bottle with pebbles and as soon as they go to start biting get someone to shake it - the noise should make them stop, quickly make a fuss of them and give them favourite toy or treat as a reward for stopping ......they also suggest the use of a water spray for unwanted behaviour.  Surely the use of thespray  collar is a similar thing?

This is a great board but I have been shot down in the past for suggesting alternative things - only to be told ' that you will find not many people on here will approve of this'  so please don't shoot me down in flames.

these are really common methods which i have also come across. a lot of people would say that they are effective and that their dog was taught using them and is absolutely fine. this forum is generally about promoting positive reinforcement which is why so many will disagree with your trainee group. i think you have to gather as much information as possible and decide what is right for your dog. my husband would quite happily use a pet corrector or spray bottle (as would lots of others in our family) because he thinks it would get instant results (which it probably would!) but it doesn't sit right with me so i choose not to. and as i'm the one with barkley most, he is being trained according to my rules.  i think positive reinforcement definitely works better in the long run but you have to be VERY patient and persistent!!

re: pet correctors. we bought one after a scary incident where a dog, with no owner in sight, attacked barkley quite severely. i carry it in my car so that i know i have some way of scaring another dog away if shouting and jumping about isn't doing the trick. i've only used it on one occasion- when a friend's dog was being set upon by four other dogs in a woodland carpark. one shot of air into the sky was enough to get them all to stop so that my friend could get her dog into the car. i wouldn't use it in enclosed spaces or as a training method because it really is incredibly loud and i think probably makes them forget what they were doing in the first place anyway!

[laurenollie]

I'm not an expert or anything but we had this problem really bad as well. I asked my vet and he said the best thing is to ignore him. As we had crate trained Ollie our vet said to put him in time out in the crate. We started this as we were desperate - i was worried because i didn't want him to associate crate with being ignored and then him not wanting to sleep there.

BUT it was a massive success!!! as soon as he started we put him in completely ignoring him in the process. If we were out so didn't;t have the crate we would stand still and ignore him - he'd eventually get bored and as we went on the time he does it got less and less.

No he hardly ever does it. It did take us a good few weeks thought.

but i think the moral of the story is that puppies really hate to be ignored!!!

Good luck and just be consistent!!!

L&O x

[ludo]

Thanks all - laurienollie in particular  as you can relate to the problem and seem to know how much of a challenge it becomes (have only experienced this inside the home) - have started to place him in his crate for a time out the instant the behaviour begins - tonight he was playing nicely but wanted to get more boisterous - so tonight he grabbed my jumper (I was sat on the sofa)- I immobilised it, didn't give him eye contact which seemed to flumux him momentarily so he had another go - at that point I picked him up with no eye contact and put him in his crate where he sits as I type  - I have also found a really good behaviourist who advocates very positive training methods - having a series of 4 x 1:1 training sessions of an hour each spread over 8 weeks and later on will join follow on classes.  Just to clarify it wasn't my puppy class but the vet nurse who suggested it.  You are right - it is a steep learning curve  but the advice and encouragement on this site is invaluable.  I think the biggest challenge for me is that I don't understand dog behaviour well enough.  I intend to go armed with many questions when I see our behaviourist/trainer. 

[Cob-Web]

I think the biggest challenge for me is that I don't understand dog behaviour well enough.  I intend to go armed with many questions when I see our behaviourist/trainer. 

The books recommended in the pinned post at the top of the behaviour board are excellent; The Complete Idiots Guide to Dog Training is a good starting point, and if you get *into* the reasons why your dog does things, then try "The Culture Clash" and if you are interested in body language then the Turid Rugaas book (or her website articles, here) are excellent 

[ludo]

cheers Cobweb.  I've got the Culture Clash and have read some of it and it is a good book - haven't got the other two so will invest in them - thank you. 

[Tasha]

by serious problems I would normally put into that category livestock worrying at which point clicker training really would be of very little use unless a dog is on a lead, off lead the dog would be shot by the local farmer without intervention  Sadly this has happened locally several times.

I am not a fan of electric collars at all I honestly think they are cruel but I have no problem with the spray collars which can be effective when used correctly for short periods of time by an experienced and qualified trainer. 

[Tasha]

Can I ask which vets this is please??? Could you pm it?? thanks

[ludo]

I'd rather not name and shame. 

[Top Barks]

by serious problems I would normally put into that category livestock worrying at which point clicker training really would be of very little use unless a dog is on a lead, off lead the dog would be shot by the local farmer without intervention  Sadly this has happened locally several times.

I am not a fan of electric collars at all I honestly think they are cruel but I have no problem with the spray collars which can be effective when used correctly for short periods of time by an experienced and qualified trainer. 

Have you ever been squirted in your face with citronella? Why not try it and see if you feel the same.
If you have a dog that worries livestock then why let it off lead near livestock?
Is the dog supposed to generalise this to lots of different locations and types of beast?
or do you use it in multiple locations and when steadying to all creatures great and small.
Blow it, lets just get the Cesar Milan book out.
I have said it before spray collars, rattle bottles may bury a behaviour for a time but there is every chance it will resurface at a later date.
What then?
Over to you!
Mark

[Tasha]

yes, I have I've also had ago with a shock collar and one thats used on a dog for the invisible fencing see no reason why a dog should have to do something I am not prepared to try myself first 

Working dogs that have to go through sheep are absolutely useless for their job if you can't let them off the lead... again I would say only in an emergency and as a last resort. I'm not a trainer and certainly wouldn't put myself out there as one but if its the difference between life and death or being rehomed then I would in an emergency use a method that is prehaps not driven by chucking sweets.  Prey drive is alot stronger than the need for food reward in some dogs.

I'm always happy to re-educated if you have a better method... and please don't chuck cesar milan at me I don't use his methods of flattening a dog either.

[Top Barks]

yes, I have I've also had ago with a shock collar and one thats used on a dog for the invisible fencing see no reason why a dog should have to do something I am not prepared to try myself first 

Working dogs that have to go through sheep are absolutely useless for their job if you can't let them off the lead... again I would say only in an emergency and as a last resort. I'm not a trainer and certainly wouldn't put myself out there as one but if its the difference between life and death or being rehomed then I would in an emergency use a method that is prehaps not driven by chucking sweets.  Prey drive is alot stronger than the need for food reward in some dogs.

I'm always happy to re-educated if you have a better method... and please don't chuck cesar milan at me I don't use his methods of flattening a dog either.

Get a dog that is not so hard wired  and train it to be steady then.
I agree that often manmade reinforcer's cannot compete with the animals natural instincts but these instincts and their strength vary from dog to dog.
Some dogs are just too hard wired to work where you want, so do you find a dog that you can work with or punish the hell out of the one you already have?
Some working dogs are not fit for purpose, people just have to get their heads round that!
I don't think the original post referred to  a working dog in an emergency situation so where spray collars comes into it I don't know.

edited to add
Don't forget a dogs prey drive if strong enough could override any punishment dolled out.
there is also spontaneous recovery of a behaviour you had previously thought extinguished. What then do you keep on punishing?
Sorry but IMHO it is a slippery slope to start down.
Mark

[Tasha]

My own dogs DONT have this problem I take the time and make the effort to stock train them with everything from sheep and cattle to lama's thanks very much for the insult neither do they have the need for any form of collar although as a precaution they have worn them when we move house so as not to upset my neighbours.  When you have six dogs that live in the hoouse of varying size its not acceptable to be a noise menace especially when you live in a town like Brighton where dogs are not exactly tolerated all that well.

However I do deal with rescue and not everyone who has a sheep worrier for an example works their dog.  There are alot of people that live near sheep, cattle etc take most of the people in rural england and wales unless your local area is arable and we get the occassional problem dog that has KILLED not just worried an animal at which point the owners are desperate for something that will help them stop it happening again.  Some dogs for example have had sheep grazing in the field next to their homes so other than killing the dog or rehoming it which alot of people are reluctant to do without doing something to resolve the situation what else would you suggest??  Not all dogs can be rehomed when they have this sort of problem in a city, they just would not survive.

You are a trainer and one of working ilk so what do you do when a client comes to you and says I have a problem, I don't want to get rid of my dog and it still needs to be usable as a working dog in and around livestock?

remember that in some circles shooting it in the head is the quickest method of dispatch and cheaper than a vet.  Yoou can't just advocate the chucking away of dogs.