Please help - not sure if this is normal and at my wits end...

[Crazy Cocker Gang]

TBH I think I've been misled by both the sire and dam's owners and am very upset. Not sure what to do now as it doesnt sound as though Daisy is what we thought we were buying and although it breaks my heart to think about it we may have to consider asking the breeder to take her back...

I agree as I contacted them wanting a "proper" working cocker who had a huge drive, was a bright spark and biddable and from what they told me and I saw I got exactly what I wanted as thats what the pups were being sold as (to me anyways I now realise they were sold as something completly different to you). Im sorry but they knew what they had and I actually had a disscussion with them about workers with this breedings suitability as pets.

I really, really am trying to be careful with what I say here

[JohnW]

Hi, we have a 4 and a half month old black working cocker called Daisy and she's been here with us since she was 8 weeks old. My husband and I have both had dogs before - we said goodbye to my gorgeous 14 year old boxer Bobby just over 2 years ago - so we understand the hard work, time and patience needed to train and bring up a happy and healthy puppy. Daisy has been a fairly difficult puppy from the start due to her frenetic behaviour ie a complete inability to settle and be calm for more than 10 seconds other than when she is in her crate. She is constantly on the go, very boisterous with us and other dogs (although not aggressive as such) and has to be on a leash if not in the crate whereupon she will chew it and whatever it is attached to. She bites pretty hard (although I appreciate this is mostly play) and its often if we are not paying her any attention ie when we are eating - I've tried standing on the lead to stop her jumping up etc but she will then bite my foot, leg etc.  I have followed all the advice on here in that respect and we have had a trainer come to the house to give us advice which we have followed.

We thought this was all pretty "normal" behaviour for a cocker spaniel puppy but Daisy has recently stayed with an extremely experienced dog handler/carer (she also whelps local cocker breeders' litters and has her own working cocker bitch) while we were away on holiday. She is a friend of the breeder from whom we got Daisy and she also knows the owners of the stud dog, Daisy's father. Her first words to my husband when he picked Daisy up were that she wasn't sorry to see Daisy go. She basically said Daisy was bonkers/a bit mad and very very difficult. She had another puppy from Daisy's breeder and that puppy was what she would expect from a cocker puppy - full of fun but much calmer than Daisy; Daisy was 1000 miles an hour all the time. She even contacted the stud dog owners, who are very successful gundog trainers and breeders, to ask for some guidance. They said for us to contact them on our return which we have done and are awaiting their return call. However I dont know where to go from here. Maybe Daisy would be happier working rather than being a family pet?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. We dont want an adult dog that is unmanageable, particularly as we have young children, but is there another option? I'm so very upset at the thought of her not staying with us but I dont know if I can cope with this for the whole of Daisy's life . Thanks so much for any help anyone can give.

I notice you are not far from me, would it be OK if I could Pm you, Don't panic its not the end of the world, we have some excellent facilities and working cocker people in the our area that can help you. I am competing with 2 of my WCS all day tomorrow but if its OK I can Pm you and have a chat tomorrow teatime when I return home. However I do sympathise with you, as I presently have 2 mad working cocker pups playing tuggy with a pair of my sweaty socks they have just fished out of my dirty linen basket (the little darlings) aswell as my older gang of cocker's who are all lay on my settee's looking dissaproving at them  .  Hopefully chat tomorrow.

John.

[Sarah1985]

TBH I think I've been misled by both the sire and dam's owners and am very upset. Not sure what to do now as it doesnt sound as though Daisy is what we thought we were buying and although it breaks my heart to think about it we may have to consider asking the breeder to take her back...

Whilest I agree that the breeder shouldnt have told you that they make good family pets it should be your responsibility to research the breed and what you were taking on. The breeder was after all trying to make a sale. Theres no getting away from the fact that no-one forced you to buy poor Daisy.

I know Im being incredibly harsh and Im sure you'e learnt your lesson from this expereince but it still doesnt get away from the fact that you need to take responsiblity for the dog you picked

If you only have time for 2 15 min walks a day how are you going to manage when shes older? I walk mine for a total of 4 hours  (min) a day. Whilest Im not suggesting you do this with a puppy it does reflect the amount of time I put into keeping my working cockers happy with training and mental stimulation. They arent an easy dog by any stretch of the imagination but with the right amount of input they are perfectly managable.

 When they were pups this time would be spent training and socialising them. Even if i took them to a pub the new sights and sounds would keep them mental tired.

[Crazy Cocker Gang]

TBH I think I've been misled by both the sire and dam's owners and am very upset. Not sure what to do now as it doesnt sound as though Daisy is what we thought we were buying and although it breaks my heart to think about it we may have to consider asking the breeder to take her back...

Whilest I agree that the breeder shouldnt have told you that they make good family pets it should be your responsibility to research the breed and what you were taking on. The breeder was after all trying to make a sale. Theres no getting away from the fact that no-one forced you to buy poor Daisy.

I know Im being incredibly harsh and Im sure you'e learnt your lesson from this expereince but it still doesnt get away from the fact that you need to take responsiblity for the dog you picked

If you only have time for 2 15 min walks a day how are you going to manage when shes older? I walk mine for a total of 4 hours  (min) a day. Whilest Im not suggesting you do this with a puppy it does reflect the amount of time I put into keeping my working cockers happy with training and mental stimulation. They arent an easy dog by any stretch of the imagination but with the right amount of input they are perfectly managable.

 When they were pups this time would be spent training and socialising them. Even if i took them to a pub the new sights and sounds would keep them mental tired.

Actually it was me who said my pup got two 15min walks a day and its not because thats all i have time for it because thats all he needs at the moment.

If im right your pup is 10mths old and if its out for four hours a day im surprised its hips havent fallen out of their sockets.

Yes there is a responsibility here for the puppy buyer but also on the stud dog and dams owners not to recommend something when they have been given a acurate description of the puppy buyers lifestyle they know a pup they have bred is not going to fit into.

[SimonandMandy]

Going to chip in too, one of the considerations with the high drive working cockers is how easy it is to over stimulate even as adults and how much these dogs need to have a balance to their needs.  The advice you have been given here has been great and it is unfortunate that you are placed in this position.  Hopefully with the support you are being offered you can make an informed choice that is in the best interests of both your family and Daisy for the longer term but only you can make that decision. 

I wish you all the best

[Karma]

I agree with Crazy Cocker Gang that where a potential buyer describes their lifestyle to a breeder it is the breeder's responsibility to give an honest answer as to whether their pups are suitable... this situation is unfortunately why most of the longer term members will advise against working cockers in purely pet homes despite the fact that it can work well for some.  Even looking at lines with honest breeders, you can never be 100% certain how much drive any individual dog will have.  Then you end up with a family in a heartbreaking position like this...    This isn't someone who has just decided they like the idea of a worker and gone for it - they looked into it (reading all the threads on here where people sit and post that they have working cockers as pets and they can make great pets) and asked the person who should be most knowledgable about the temperament of the puppies in question AND most concerned that they went into suitable homes...
 

mmeears - I can see you have put a lot of work into Daisy so far - it is very unfortunate that you have been misled by the breeder.  Only you and your family can know whether you are able to keep going with Daisy or whether she needs a working home, but I agree with some of the later posters that perhaps the issue is more over-stimulation than lack of stimulation. 
I appreciate what you are saying about lead training - perhaps it would be useful to get a harness, so you can walk TO the park without worrying about pulling, and then concentrate on lead training on the way home (when she's less excited).  You could also try to fit in 10 mins of lead training as another walk (start off in the garden so there's fewer distractions) as there is then no pressure on you to actually get anywhere (which again may reduce the anticipation of fun, and so the liklihood of pulling!).
It sounds like you have crate trained her very well, and that she will relax when there... that means she is capable of relaxing in the right circumstances.  Could she have a bed (or mat) in the lounge where you could train her to relax when you are in there?  Start off making it a great (but calm) place to be... sit on the floor next to her and hand feed her while she is sitting or lying on her mat... if she gets up and runs riot, just get up and walk away.
The reaction you describe to rewarding her calm behaviour, by the way, is VERY normal - this is often why people overlook it as a training area, as they are reluctant to disturb their pup who has eventually switched off for a few seconds - and any reward (and attention) is going to be exciting for them.  But if you ignore their response (easier said than done while they are still biting, I know) they will learn that calm behaviour is much more rewarding...

As Helen says, the problems you are facing are not impossible to solve... but Daisy will need good consistent training for months to come.  If you can do this, you will be rewarded with a devoted, very switched on little dog... but it will be hard work, and there will be times you feel like you can't cope.  How you resolve this is entirely in your hands - I really don't envy you the position you are in and if I was in your shoes I would feel very let down by the breeder.
Good luck - and hope the collective advice of COLers can help! 

[mmeears]

Thank you so much everyone. I've woken up feeling exhausted, sad and confused but it's so very reassuring to know that I have so many knowledgable and caring people on here who want to help and offer support and good advice .

Sarah - as a working cocker owner I can fully understand your obvious frustration with people who rush out and buy these puppies on a whim without any idea of what they are taking on. It may be that you have not read all the posts on this thread and you have confused me with one of those people. To be honest I found your comments extremely upsetting at a time when I am trying to do the right thing for my family but more importantly Daisy. It seems to me a very sad state of affairs if we cannot trust what reputable breeders tell us. Thank you for taking the time to comment.

John - Thank you so much for your message, yes you are not far at all and I'd be extremely grateful if you would PM me. Your dogs look beautiful and very happy! My only concern at this stage is whether I can give Daisy the amount of time she needs but your advice would be greatly welcomed! It seems that Daisy is a hugely driven working cocker and who thrive in a proper working home. If I can make her happy by walking her twice a day, training and play time in the garden and perhaps agility when she's older then I want to give it a go (despite my husband's concern that I may be taking on more than I had anticipated, particularly given that he is away all week and I have a 6 and 1 year old...) but if people think this is not enough for her then although it will break my heart I must do what's best for her. Again, people's views on this would be extremely helpful.

[Helen]

Good morning

I too found Sarah's comments harsh (and imho a bit patronising) given the context of the thread and the fact that you did do research into the breed and hope you don't take them to heart   

The thing is that (as I bang on about) some working cockers are now very dilute versions of the breed, which is the domain of the predominantly 'pet home' breeders who obviously have scant care in whether the dogs are 'fit for purpose' (ie working) and therefore a lot are suitable for pet homes....but a lot are still bred for working, and working hard,  and this is the difference.

Working cockers have had a huge resurgence over the last few years, probably cos they're beautiful and little and soooo happy and bright -  but if you look back a few years at any gun dog magazines you'll see a lot of information about how difficult and tricky they can be even for the people working them (and that's from gun dog men who have chosen the 'easier' route of springers and labs ) so you're not alone 

Don't make any rash decisions yet - you have had a lot of emotional but good information thrown at you on this thread.  You need to sit down, with your other half, and see if you feel you can work through this with Daisy.

If not, and you're not comfortable with returning the pup to the breeder, then I suggest you pm one of us mods and we can put you in touch with the right people to re-home Daisy.

On the upside you have a beautiful driven clever little working cocker - if you can harness her energy into 'good' not 'evil' you have a winner on your hands 

[mmeears]

Thanks Helen, I feel better reading your advice   The thing is Daisy is an absolutely gorgeous, kind and very affectionate pup. She was laid across me on the sofa last night loving the cuddles and I went upstairs afterwards and cried my eyes out. I'd like to think my husband and I are fairly level headed and sensible people so we have already decided we are not going to rush into any decisions. My husband spoke to the sire's breeder last night and she is going to ring us back over the weekend after she has spoken her husband and we will discuss it further. I'm also going to have a chat with a couple of lovely people on here - one of whom has Daisy's brother from the same litter - and see what they think. If we can give her everything she needs then I am desperate to keep her - my worry is that as she is definitely not from a "dilute" breed and is a full on worker then we may not be enough for her. My husband is slightly concerned that I am putting Daisy first whereas he thinks we should be thinking of the children and family first  

Thanks again, will no doubt be many more posts to come!

[mlynnf50]

Hello mmeears,  I really feel for you and through no fault of your own you have found yourself in this situation, puppys are difficult at the best of times, but we do love them.  I do hope you find peace of mind whatever you decide, and remember no one else is walking you your shoes.  Hope all goes well for you and you can make the right decision

[Geordietyke]

Hi, I've been following this thread and I want to add my hugs to you and your family .  As mlynnf50 has said, it is hard enough dealing with a pup without the trials and tribulations you are having to deal with at present. 

You sound a level headed person, and with a couple of people on here you can talk to and discuss your concerns with, hopefully things will work out for the best, for everyone (including Daisy)   Good luck, Lesley   

[Black Red + Yellow]

O I am so sorry to hear you are having a tough time with your little cookie!!!  Don't give up just yet  You just need to find a niche for her to make her feel more fulfilled......and less norty

I agree with all the comments made about mental stimulation .......maybe you can do some research into some training exercises you could just do in your garden with her........just 10 minutes a day....I promise, it makes all the difference and doing them in the garden - well you can put your little one in the buggy and they can watch and munch on a banana or something

Socks are brilliant......fill them with treats and attach to string, get her to follow the scent and then hide things in the garden, under flowerpots, behind things, and make her work for them, when her mind is spent, her body will follow.  

Maybe you can think of a something you would like to teach her, what about her basic commands?  can you develop on them?.....I've even had cane poles stuck in my garden and had a go a weaving with the boys and the labrador.  Was a right laugh.....dug out some canes used for the plants, banged them into the ground, got a handful of treats and away they went....very surprising....even the Lab had a go and took all the canes down with her  Hope the Gun Dog Trainer gets back to you - ours has given us loads of things to do with our lot that don't necessarily mean it will lead to working them as a gun dog, just different types of exercises to suit the breed.

It's hard work owning a dog with a high working drive and we certainly couldn't have done it without receiving proper training  ourselves It is true that gun dog breeds do need lots of exercise but for them, it is about quality, not quantity.  Walking round a field of grass is ok for when you are just giving them a 10 minute toilet break but these dogs want undergrowth and brambles to search in, even if all they find is a rotting banana

Best of luck and chin up

[Hurtwood Dogs]

 

You've had loads of advice from others on your breeder and what you have in store, so as another mum with young children I'll give you my perspective

Firstly, HUGE hugs from me. I have a 1 yr old daughter, a 7 yr old son a 3 yr old normal easy-ish show type and a 5yr old very big rescue Weimaraner with a strong hunt drive, from strong working parents with a good dose of hormonal huffiness and issues with other dogs just for good measure .

It's hard work but oddly, no where near as hard as my first show cocker was. He was a very very busy hyper dog with a very strong hunt drive (he'd start shaking the second he caught a wiff of any game) and endless energy, he was impossible to wear out - I can honestly say, the only time he relaxed was about midnight for the night or if he was cuddling us. He was also my first dog so I was on a learning curve with him and I'm sure made loads of mistakes... but he had the most amazing happy loving temperament, was perfect with my son and he was the dog of a lifetime for me and I'm still in pieces that 3 years ago I lost aged just six very suddenly.

Dogs like Daisy are very hardwork and they are more of a lifestyle than just a family pet.. but they really can be the most amazing family pets also.

You have an awful lot on your plate right now, particularly if your hubby is away a lot. Your children will be making your job of training/managing Daisy a lot harder than if you didn't have kids (this isn't said with anything other than fact and personal experience behind it - even managing my second 'easy' show cocker as a pup was a real pain around my then 4-5yr old son who was dog savvy) and it will also take longer for her to get the hang of things because of them. HOWEVER, although you are facing a very very difficult year or 2 until your youngest goes to nursery, when she does, that will also coincide with daisy growing out of her difficult 'teen' months and also being able to do more exercises and suddenly you will have a bit of time together where you can really cash in on the little brainbox you have and develop an amazing relationship and continue to be amazed at what you can do together

Your husband is right, you do have to put the kids first because otherwise you will end up beating yourself up and in tears that you're doing everything badly but if you can fit a structure into your routines for the next year and a half that gives Daisy some regular quality time with you focusing and learning then although not ideal, you could make it work.. For example, keep Daisy somewhere confined for periods of the day so you can play with the kids or get on with other things and she can relax and have some down time, then when your little one is sleeping do a couple of 15 min sessions with Daisy without your older child 'helping' so you can both focus and learn together.

She does only need short bursts of exercise at the moment which is in your favour but it does need structuring and you can also focus on exercising her mentally by training her to do things around the house - hide things for her to find, train her to fetch things for you etc etc...

Lots of people are offering help so chat with them and see if you can come up with a realistic routine/structure etc around your children and if you think you can manage it all... I wish you lots and lots of luck with your decision

[Sarah1985]

If im right your pup is 10mths old and if its out for four hours a day im surprised its hips havent fallen out of their sockets.

Yes there is a responsibility here for the puppy buyer but also on the stud dog and dams owners not to recommend something when they have been given a acurate description of the puppy buyers lifestyle they know a pup they have bred is not going to fit into.

Out is different to being exercised for 4 hours. Some times ill be training them. Other times we'll chill in the park. Sometimes its a trip to a friends house its a real mixed bag of activities to ensure that my dogs are well socialised as well as mentally and physically tired.

Im sorrry you fund my comments harsh. But I put a huge amout of research into my dogs. I not only researched on here but spent time with a working cocker, went on a few shoots to witness them at work and read as much info as I could lay my hands on. I simpley cant understand the over reliance that was placed on the breeders advise in this case.

I never listen to anyone selling anything. Whether than be a car, a house, or even an item of clothing and especially not something like a dog. As free thinking individuals we should be taking responsibility for our decisions and not blaming everyone else. If your taking on something as important as a dog you need to do the research.

[Crazy Cocker Gang]

I just want to add something here and hope I can without it coming across in a bad way.

Forgetting the whole issue of whos wrong breeder/buyer/stud owner (Michelle you know how I feel about this  ) and focussing on the situation as it stands at the moment.

Dasiy is not only a close relative of Brie she is also related to Nicolas Weevil, im not saying this in the sense of "we have great working cockers and other peoples are crap" because thats not true and not what I mean but Brie, Weevil, Seth and Daisy are complete out and out working dogs that are extreamly driven and very high maintenance.
 
I couldnt think of a pup less suited to a pet home.

This is also not a pup thats going to be happy with less or to take a back seat when needed, even as a adult the level of training, management and work will be huge.

As much as I appreciate the sentiment that Michelle will have more time when her child is at nursery Daisy is not going to wait until then and as we all know when working cockers like this are in the wrong enviroment its a recipe for disaster and by the time Michelle has more time who knows what issues Daisy will have.

I really, really dont want to come across all doom and gloom, up myself or a know it all (probably too late for that  ) but I do know these dogs.

Michelle you know whatever you decide and whatever you need im here