CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => General Cocker Spaniel Discussion => Topic started by: shonajoy on December 21, 2003, 08:37:10 PM
-
I've been reading about this, but have noticed a lot of spaniels I have seen have actually been docked - I thought it was illegal nowadays? :?:
Shona
-
It's illegal for anyone other than a vet to do it.
-
Obviously since the vast majority of show breeders still have their litters docked, this means that there are only a few undocked Cockers being shown, some have been imported from countries where docking is not permitted & some bought from non-show breeders. Statistically a docked Cocker has a better chance of doing better in the ring than an undocked but an undocked Cocker if good enough in all other respects can also do well. In some breeds, there have been undocked Champions made up eg where top quality dogs from overseas have been imported or shown over here via the Pet Passport scheme.
-
Tail docking has been a much talked about subject and even more so just recently. The powers at be are trying to get it stopped/outlawed!
Well this could be interested.......the reason it's in the firing line is because anti docking groups say it's cruel and the docking council say it's not. The start of problems! :?
My own opinions are my own and as far as I see it it the the requires it then so be it.
For example
My three spaniels have all got docked tails and I will stand up and say yes my dogs tails are docked and I think it is right, for the reason that they work and take my word for I have seen working dogs undocked that have sliced chunks out of their undocked tails :cry: the blood is everywhere! in some cases the tail has to be docked by the vet known as aputation, this allows the damaged bit to be cut out and allow the remaining part of the tail to heal.
If my memory serves me correct the case that started the anti tail docking campains was a person who docked his own pups(rotties) and cut too close to the tail base which resulted in all the pups being destroyed as they were very badly paralised at 3 days old.
A very sad case.
But done properly by a vet there is no problem and tails still wag regardless of size. :D
-
We work ours - and i know what you mean by the mess the undocked dogs get in to!
Dad has had springers for years and has always insisted that the tail is docked quite long, so they can wag like crazy, but short enough not to exceed the side of the body -so they won't get damaged in the field.
A friend went to help him take the last litter to the vet and they were suprised how little it effected the pups. As at a few days old their nervous systems have not developed completely.
A remember in the news not long ago some kids were prosecuted under the new laws for docking pups - at a few weeks old!! And yes they did alot of damage!
But watch the CDB web site (www.cdb.co.uk) for info on whether it is eventualy made totally illegal.
-
We work ours - and i know what you mean by the mess the undocked dogs get in to!
Dad has had springers for years and has always insisted that the tail is docked quite long, so they can wag like crazy, but short enough not to exceed the side of the body -so they won't get damaged in the field.
A friend went to help him take the last litter to the vet and they were suprised how little it effected the pups. As at a few days old their nervous systems have not developed completely.
A remember in the news not long ago some kids were prosecuted under the new laws for docking pups - at a few weeks old!! And yes they did alot of damage!But watch the CDB web site (www.cdb.co.uk) for info on whether it is eventualy made totally illegal.
I'm sorry, but I totally disagree that puppies' nervous systems are not developed at a few days old. This is a myth and used to strengthen the pro docking movement. I'm personally of the opinion that some dogs might well need to be docked, but it should be done by a professional and under hygenic conditions with an anasthetic. Working dogs may well benefit from being docked, and I'll defer to everyone's experience on that.
<<Advocates of tail docking claim that it does not cause pain or discomfort, as the nervous system of puppies is not fully developed. This is not the case. The basic nervous system of a dog is fully developed at birth and the available evidence indicates that puppies have similar, if not increased, sensitivity to pain as adult dogs. Docking a puppy's tail involves cutting through muscles, tendons, up to seven pairs of highly sensitive nerves and severing bone and cartilage connections. Tail docking is usually carried out without any anaesthesia. Puppies give repeated intense shrieking vocalisations the moment the tail is cut off and during stitching of the wound, indicating that they experience substantial pain. Inflammation and damage to the tissues also cause ongoing pain while the wound heals.>>
EDITED to add : This quote above comes from the RSPCA website, position on tail docking, link
http://www.rspca.org.au/campaigns/taildocking.htm (http://www.rspca.org.au/campaigns/taildocking.htm)
Shona
-
I'm sorry, but I totally disagree that puppies' nervous systems are not developed at a few days old. This is a myth and used to strengthen the pro docking movement. I'm personally of the opinion that some dogs might well need to be docked, but it should be done by a professional and under hygenic conditions with an anasthetic. Working dogs may well benefit from being docked, and I'll defer to everyone's experience on that.
Shona
Sorry - seen lots of puppies being docked and still agree with docking - when done by the pro's! - they do squeek but then they are more concerned with dinner than anything else!
From my experaince a day old pup is not self or spacially aware. At a week old they know they are being touched and can feel when they are being lifted - tensing as they are moved! Before that they don't twitch when touched - i'm only going on what i've seen!
How ever - before i come under attack for my beliefs - and yes i know it will happen - not all our puppies have been docked - if they are going into a lifestyle where it is not appropriate then they are left as so!
-
Sorry - seen lots of puppies being docked and still agree with docking - when done by the pro's! - they do squeek but then they are more concerned with dinner than anything else!
From my experaince a day old pup is not self or spacially aware. At a week old they know they are being touched and can feel when they are being lifted - tensing as they are moved! Before that they don't twitch when touched - i'm only going on what i've seen!
How ever - before i come under attack for my beliefs - and yes i know it will happen - not all our puppies have been docked - if they are going into a lifestyle where it is not appropriate then they are left as so![/quote]
No one is attacking your beliefs, I'm merely pointing out that a statement you made regarding nervous systems not being fully formed is simply untrue.
I did say at the end of my post I am sure it is a valid thing to do, for working dogs for instance, but I simply cannot condone doing this with no anaesthetic. Rationalise all you want, but puppies have perfectly formed nervous systems, and feel the pain, when this is done with no painkilling medication. It's utter cruelty to do this to an animal if you are not a trained professional, and have no access to anaesthetics.
Shona
Shona
-
Excuse me - ours are done by the vet - properly!!!! Have been for years - didn't i make that clear???
-
Now my grandfather in the 1930s used to dock his cockers tails himself with a quick bite—ouch :shock:
-
Docking has been done to death on most dog forums including this one in the past so can we keep this to a minimum please :) It will always be a contentious issue & there are valid arguments for & against, depending on personal viewpoint & experience. It remains legal if carried out by a vet & reputable breeders will of course only get their pups docked by a qualified vet as is required under the law. In the interests of balance, here is the CDB website (the pro-docking organisation): www.cdb.org (http://www.cdb.org) & here is the website for the Anti-docking Alliance: http://www.anti-dockingalliance.co.uk/ (http://www.anti-dockingalliance.co.uk/). I will let this thread continue for the present but if it descends into arguments & insults (as the docking debate does tend to on most forums), it will be locked immediately :wink:
NB When quoting from other authors/websites, please quote your source for copyright reasons.
-
Excuse me - ours are done by the vet - properly!!!! Have been for years - didn't i make that clear???
No, you didn't. Equally I'm sorry if I assumed that.
I reiterate - I have no problems with this being done using an anaesthetic if it is desireable for it to be done.
Shona
-
Now my grandfather in the 1930s used to dock his cockers tails himself with a quick bite—ouch :shock:
OW!
Shona
-
Docking has been done to death on most dog forums including this one in the past so can we keep this to a minimum please :) It will always be a contentious issue & there are valid arguments for & against, depending on personal viewpoint & experience. It remains legal if carried out by a vet & reputable breeders will of course only get their pups docked by a qualified vet as is required under the law. In the interests of balance, here is the CDB website (the pro-docking organisation): www.cdb.org (http://www.cdb.org) & here is the website for the Anti-docking Alliance: http://www.anti-dockingalliance.co.uk/ (http://www.anti-dockingalliance.co.uk/). I will let this thread continue for the present but if it descends into arguments & insults (as the docking debate does tend to on most forums), it will be locked immediately :wink:
NB When quoting from other authors/websites, please quote your source for copyright reasons.
I haven't discussed this issue on this board before, and am interested in others' opinions, that's all. I think everyone here has been very balanced and mature, even when they don't agree. I like hearing other opinions, which is very difficult if we can't discuss it.
I can assure you, I would never make a personal attack on another member due to a debate on something - I think at that point you have lost any point you may have had, by descending to such a level.
Shona :wink:
-
Shona, there is no objection to anyone carrying on a discussion in a reasonable manner. My post was a warning as from past experience, debates on this subject do tend to become very unpleasant!
Please could I remind you to add your source for the quotation you gave in one of your posts above - thank you :)
-
Shona, there is no objection to anyone carrying on a discussion in a reasonable manner. My post was a warning as from past experience, debates on this subject do tend to become very unpleasant!
Please could I remind you to add your source for the quotation you gave in one of your posts above - thank you :)
Not a problem, Jane. I have edited the post to inculde the source of the quote.
Shona