CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => General Cocker Spaniel Discussion => Topic started by: Coco on September 23, 2010, 01:24:33 AM
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Just looking at a thread for someone seeking a working cocker and the arguments put forward for a non working family to not take one on. It seems the working owners who have them as pets think it can be done, while those that do work their dogs can't see it working.
It has me thinking Wherry would go out of her head if she didn't get the opportunity to be worked, to be out of the house all day, freedom and discipline. Gizmo on the other hand, while she will go all day and loves it, but, is still happy in the house in a pet lifestyle, getting more standard walks and training. They both come from FTCH backgrounds, working parents etc etc
So I wonder if the difference is that Wherry had that lifestyle from day one and is used to it where as Giz has had a more sedate lifestyle from the start. As such, have they just adapted to what they are used to, is this why other owners feel the way they do about workers in pet homes because of their own experience and have their dogs also adapted??
It is true that Giz didn't have the natural aptitude that Wherry did from the start but, perhaps I didn't bring it out of her? I guess its a nature, nurture question.
Or, is it just that I managed, despite their backgrounds and what they 'should' be like, to get two ends of a spectrum regardless. :lol2:
ETA: I Realise that there are those that have come from very 'undilited' working backgrounds and those that come from very 'diluted', it would make sense that those who very activly work have sought a very, very strong background and possibly vice versa. I'm thinking on farm bred, gamekeeper bred types rather than direct FT types or commercial bred.
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I dont work my working cockers in the traditional sense and they have both adapted very well to pet life style. One is a "pet bred" worker and one is a working farm bred worker whose parents and siblings are actively worked (she was considered too small). Both from what id considered to be undiluted lines.
However I do ALOT of activities with my dogs. For example at the min we are taking part in a flyball team, traning for aglity, there are obedeince classes startin next month and Ive somehow roped myself into being a demo dog for the puppy obedeince class. In the past we've had a go at Rally O, sniffing classes and I self teach them HWTM and do some basic gundog exercises. I also love walking in the peaks so they get a fair amount of exposure to lots of lovely smells and sights as well as frquent trips to the park and to the local river for a swim
I love my dogs and spending time with them so I suspect thats why they cope so well with pet life, is it because I do so much with them? (despite it not being the traditional gundog "work") I know people say show cockers can be just as energetic but I do wonder if your average show could keep up with what Id want from a dog. I suppose they'd adapt and get fitter but I love my dogs for wanting to take part in the next thing I have planned and having the energy to give it their all
Ive noticed a huge increase in working cockers coming to flyball of the new starters 4 out of 6 are working cockers . And alot of the owners all say the same thing, That they are looking for a way of controlling their energy levels. I do wonder if they are taking up a doggy hobby out of necessity rather than actually wanting to participate.
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We don't work Harvey although we have done a lot fo obedieince training and started gundog training. He now does flyball which seems to suit him more as he is so speedy:005:
Although he's never been worked a lot of the training and playing we do involes retireving, and smelling out toys and his dummy. Even though we both work Harvey gets loads of exercise and mental stimulation each day.
Is it enough? Well, he never seems restless. Even though he is active so and so he is a lazy one so loves his home comforts. We also went to a very good breeder who, even though we picked harvey ourselves, steered us towards him as I think she knew he would suit a non-working home.
I think if you take on any working breed of dog you need to put the time and effort in. I think these dogs need a purpouse so definitly need training!harvey is always looking for the next command!
Christina
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Sorry if this doesn't make any sense, I've typed it from my phone so can't preview it!
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Bonnie Boo came from a working background and though she is a very busy little girl,I do spend a lot of time with her,plenty of walks,plenty of play. I think its something you have to acknowledge from the start, for the dogs well being as well as your own sanity :lol:
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I think there are many Working bred Cockers who can adapt very well to a pet lifestyle.
BUT I also think there are many that just can't and need far more than your average pet home - whether that be working in the field they were designed to or a very full regime of different activities (such as agility, flyball, obedience, clicker training etc) depends on the dog (Honey, only 3/4 worker, loves her agility and I'm sure prefers this to the opportunity to actually work, but for others while they may enjoy something like agility, their real forte is actual working in the field...)
The difficulty is that I don't think you can guarantee which you would get when buying a pup - yes you can look at lines, and the temperament of the dam and sire etc, but this is only an indication. So, if you were getting a working bred pup you need to be prepared for the fact that it may need a suitable outlet for that working mind...
I do wonder whether the way you bring them up plays a role too - I know I worked hard when Honey was a pup to make sure she knew how to swtich off and relax in the house... whether the fact that she is now very chilled in the house is because of that, or because of her personality anyway, it's hard to know.
I would love a pure Worker in future but I would look to rescue.... while I would love a Worker pup (and maybe, once baby is an adult and I would have time to devote to even the most switched on little Worker pup!) I don't think my lifestyle for the next few years is ideal to take the risk that they could have a very high working drive. If I feel the need for a pup, I would go for a show type... (and hope they were a particularly active one!!!!)
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Agree with Karma.
and I also think that they don't lose their instinct but they obviously can adapt as they've never had the choice ...my question would be how do you know your pet working cocker is truly fulfilled until you've tried working them?
I've tried agility and flyball with Jarvis but NOTHING presses his buttons more than working and gun dog training :luv:
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I pretty much agree with what Karma has said. It's probably no secret that I don't agree with working Cockers being bred purely for the pet market and sold as 'normal' family pets. I think that some of them can make good pets for the right homes - i.e. the kind of home that wants to either do some working with them or participate in some other activities but the majority of pet homes who are just looking for a fairly active dog that likes to go on long walks at weekends I think would be better suited to a non-working bred dog (or a non-working bred dog would be better suited to these homes).
I think there seems to be a bit of a misconception that show Cockers are lazy and if you want a pet that's up for long walks you have to go for a worker and I don't think that's true. I think a show Cocker is going to be adequate for the needs of most 'normal' pet homes and the likelihood of it fitting in well to that lifestyle is probably higher than a high-drive working Cocker. You don't see many show Cockers being given up because they're 'not active enough' whereas the number of working Cockers given up because they're 'too active' is pretty high.
As said while there are some working Cockers who seem to adapt ok to being pets you just don't know how the pup is going to turn out when you buy it. Daisy who is still with me is a classic case in point of this. You can examine pedigrees etc. and that can tell you a certain amount (more so if you understand them properly and know the lines and the dogs) but there are always going to be exceptions. Also if you've never seen what a working Cocker can be like when they get to work believe me there is a difference, they turn into different dogs, to me they just come alive and it's like nothing else to them.
Of my own dogs Tilly (illness notwithstanding) would possibly be ok in a pet home now as long as she got plenty of training and especially retrieving but then again she's 6 years old, when she was younger I doubt it. Rodaidh would be more difficult, he was bred by a gundog trainer who breeds shooting - as opposed to trialling -dogs. He's a real hunter and I think without that being channelled properly he could be tricky and he's really not into things like agility, flyball etc. We've dabbled a bit and it's just not his bag, the only other thing he seems to like is scentwork/tracking but even then he doesn't get nearly as naturally enthusiastic as he does for working. Knowing Rodaidh I think that without the chance to fulfil his natural drives he could have turned into quite a neurotic dog.
Caoimhe absolutely would never make a good pet, she's got the highest of high drives, even her trialling trainer calls her 'the whirlwind' - to me this is exactly how she should be but in your average pet home she would have gone crazy - and driven the people crazy - by now. When she gets to work and has her training she's a great dog and lovely to have around but she needs this every day and without it I can't imagine what she'd be like. However, Caoimhe is also a good example of pedigrees being potentially misleading, although her father is a Championship winner and his side of the pedigree is very 'red' her dam's side has barely any FTCh in it at all. To someone who doesn't actually know anything about the lines and the dogs in the pedigree they'd just look at it, see very little red and think 'oh she's not going to be that high-drive' whereas it's the opposite. Those lines may not be trialling dogs but they are old, 'pure' working lines which produce strong working dogs and a novice owner/buyer would not know that from just looking at the pedigree, you need to know about the dogs. The main reasons I bought Caoimhe were first of all her character from having met her and then her dam's pedigree.
I think too many people choose a type of dog because it's just what they decide they want - regardless of breed traits and lifestyle suitability - and they expect the dog to just fit into their lifestyle whereas I see it the other way around. I bought my dogs because I want to participate in the activities that they are designed and bred for. I work to their ideal lifestyle rather than the other way around. If I didn't work my dogs and I just wanted pets I doubt if I'd have Rodaidh and I definitely wouldn't have Caoimhe, I'd probably have a mixture of rescue dogs.
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Lou has only 1/4 worker in his genes. He is lovely in the house, barks the least of the 4 of them and has been the least destructive as a puppy, but I catch a look about him sometimes where he seems flat and depressed. He comes alive when he's out in the woods doing his thing and I know he'd enjoy agility or the like given more hours in the day to commit to it. His recall is OK (not perfect) but I feel he has to have the outlet of being able to RUN free and range further than the others!!!! I know he'll come back, I know he's safe in the area I walk so I don't have a problem with this but I can imagine others dieing a thousand times. I honestly couldn't see him in a town type pet home where he walks on the lead and a quick run in the park.
A friend recently asked for help in finding a cocker and I've told him on no account must he get a working type as I don't see it working for him. I guess what I'm saying is that I'd have reservations about a worker in a pet home UNLESS they are the real outdoors type, walk all weathers and prepared to put a lot more into it than the average pet dog. And that's just on the basis of 25% gene dilution ;)
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It's interesting to hear from you Nic as a multi dog owner (and everyone else of course :lol2:) as I guess it addresses the nature/nurture question. You obviously treat the dogs the same to a large extent yet you say that one could adapt and one couldn't.
I guess that's the answer, that you can make a very educated guess at what you are getting but you never know for sure. And, as much of an impact as you can have their nature comes through.
I also think that they don't lose their instinct but they obviously can adapt as they've never had the choice ...my question would be how do you know your pet working cocker is truly fulfilled until you've tried working them?
I guess you can't know if they are truly fulfilled but you do know if they are not getting enough from life or are desperate to break away.
If I'd have known the circumstances of Ex and I splitting I'd have never have gotten Gizmo. (We lived on a farm with a shoot that ran almost everyday in season we could have beat on, dogging in, 1000s of acres of farm etc, now it would be a case of a day here and there if we were lucky) Also, if she had have been like Wherry I would have left her with him in the life that she would have wanted and I couldn't provide. It was obvious from a young age, despite everything Giz wasn't that keen on the whole gundog thing in the way that Wherry was from the start. If we would have stayed together I would have pushed harder with her, encouraged it more, but we split when Giz was young enough that I was still trying to 'let her grow up a bit' and try again. Since the opportunity isn't easily available now for us to work, Gizmo is my pet, rather than my beating dog as origionally designed. But given that she wasn't that interested anyway I don't feel that she is missing out or is unhappy with this. Perhaps if we tried again she would be but I suspect she still wouldn't be suited.
It saddens me though that I am now a working cocker devotee but the chances are that after Gizmo I won't have another. If I knew I was going to be a purely 'pet' owner I wouldn't do it. What I would consider is a working cocker and doing doggy activities with them but even then, as you say Helen, I agree that it is amazing to see a w. cocker work and how much they love it so unless I had a rescue I don't think I could.
I guess I'm a working cocker pet owner who disagrees with it ph34r Thankfully Giz is the way she is and that she has adapted to her lifestyle but really thinking about it, I think she wasn't destined to work as such. I wouldn't take the risk again though unless I was prepared to go down the gundog training route, actively seek shoots etc.
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I spend a lot of time in agility questioning people about whether they want a worker or not - and these in the main are experienced dog owners!
The reason - many a collie owner has taken one on and struggled!! However, I also know that Spice is an extremely busy, active and naughty little girl who I adore beyond all measure but also understand why her breeder took a lot of persuading that agility would "work" her enough - I do not think she would have lasted 6 months in a less active home. BUT I do know of workers (and not nec from agility lines) who are nothing like as hyper as madam.
I think to think that they may partly adapt but that there is a bit of both nature and nuture there and that however calm your life is with a very high drive worker if not kept mentally and physically active even from a young age would still become stir crazy and destructive even if taken on at 8 weeks or 4 years.
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Sweep is a "pet" worker she has known nothing else. We were ignorant about the two strains of cockers and I am sorry to say (having learnt loads from this site) we did not acquire her in the best way. However, she has a lovely temperament and seems to be a very happy contented little dog (she is quite small for a working cocker). Also recently we have discovered she has a congenital foot problem which means her working life would have very short. She loves nothing more than curling up on the sofa as well as charging around the garden and beach!!!!
As many have said before depends very much on the dog.
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an interesting topic. When i got Jasper, i hadn't given an awful lot of thought to worker or pet type, just concerned mainly with where i could get a well bred, appropriately health tested, happy pup. The initial bonus from working type cockers from my point of view, is they tend to have less hair!! which though i love hairy dogs, having two already i thought one thats not bred to have profuse hair, or with too much emphasis on looks, might not be so bad. And in the main, i was right. His parents were from working lines, were both workers and mum lived in the house and was the family pet (didn't meet dad as belonged to someone else). A lovely dog and good mum she was, and a great dog Jasper is i must say. But he is full of energy, and you won't get away with a short walk, or a lay in. ever! he needs to be kept occupied, and thankfully i can meet his needs. However, i did appreciate that any cocker size dog will be full of energy and need lots of stimulation and exercise all equalling time, before i got him.
It always makes me laugh when people thinking of getting a dog say, "yes but i want an active breed cause i want a dog thats gonna get me out walking, long walks, a dog thats really up to a long walk cause i#m really trying to get fit!...
my first dog was a japanes chin (papillon size if you don' know it) and she could do a ten mile hike if you had time. But a game in the garden would suffice for the odd occasion if you couldn'#t afford longer! it's these same people who end up with a sad, a!ways pulling barely walked overweight dog! (sorry but don't they make you mad@)
At the end of the day, i wouldn't change my working bred cocker for the world, but i might think twice in the future, bearing in mind how much time and or energy you really want to put into your dogs wellbeing. does that makes sense??!
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an interesting topic. When i got Jasper, i hadn't given an awful lot of thought to worker or pet type, just concerned mainly with where i could get a well bred, appropriately health tested, happy pup. The initial bonus from working type cockers from my point of view, is they tend to have less hair!! which though i love hairy dogs, having two already i thought one thats not bred to have profuse hair, or with too much emphasis on looks, might not be so bad. And in the main, i was right. His parents were from working lines, were both workers and mum lived in the house and was the family pet (didn't meet dad as belonged to someone else). A lovely dog and good mum she was, and a great dog Jasper is i must say. But he is full of energy, and you won't get away with a short walk, or a lay in. ever! he needs to be kept occupied, and thankfully i can meet his needs. However, i did appreciate that any cocker size dog will be full of energy and need lots of stimulation and exercise all equalling time, before i got him.
It always makes me laugh when people thinking of getting a dog say, "yes but i want an active breed cause i want a dog thats gonna get me out walking, long walks, a dog thats really up to a long walk cause i#m really trying to get fit!...
my first dog was a japanes chin (papillon size if you don' know it) and she could do a ten mile hike if you had time. But a game in the garden would suffice for the odd occasion if you couldn'#t afford longer! it's these same people who end up with a sad, a!ways pulling barely walked overweight dog! (sorry but don't they make you mad@)
At the end of the day, i wouldn't change my working bred cocker for the world, but i might think twice in the future, bearing in mind how much time and or energy you really want to put into your dogs wellbeing. does that makes sense??!
I'm interested in what health tests you relied on? Were his parents hip scored? Optigen eye tested?
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I think workers can succeed in pet homes but IMO they do best where that is an experienced home, prepared to put a lot of work into the dog and its training.
I think you should try and give the dog an outlet for it's natural instincts even if you don't work them as well as engaging them in other appropriate canine activities.
I do dispair when a client phones up, tell me they have a working cocker and I go round to see them only to find they are ignorant regarding the breed and have no idea what they have taken on.
Some owners see problems where I just see potential such is their lack of understanding.
I am also totally opposed to hypocritical breeders harping on about not breeding for the pet market and diluting working instincts yet studding their FT dogs to all and sundry which achieves both of these things.
My working cocker's are all pets first and foremost, and I am in such a good place with them at the moment regarding their training and our relationship, but I have worked really really hard to understand them and give them what they need and unfortunately that is not something all pet owners who take on a worker have the ability or time to do.
I must also stress that some of the show cocker's I see are also just as high maintenance.
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Short answer = Yes but I wouldn't never contemplate trying this without plenty of training ourselves :o :o :o
I have two workers - very different in personality and working style - Alfie the ginger one was kept as a pet until he came to live with us at 15 months.......we've turned him into a excellent dogging in dog and retriever because he is such a steady dog - he isn't a fast flushing dog but this means the two boys can be worked together as they have such lovely opposite styles - perfect for hubby so that he can rest the Nutter Finn on of some the drives and perfect for Alfie because he hasn't got the same stamina to manage them all.
Finn the black one is a very high drive all round worker that flushes and retrieves and even does a bit of exhibition stuff at some of the shoots my hubby goes on - he lives quite happily in the house - much to the amusement of many people that we know in the gundog world that would only ever kennel their workers....we get the mickey taken out of us because Finn is groomed and smells 100 times better than many of theirs too (what you bath your dog!) - many of them chuckle about it all when they find out - you can see the looks on their faces with their rolling in their head eyes but the smirk is on the other side of the face when our 'house' dog goes to work ;) Granted, Finn has a crate in the house as he can be a bit of a chewer but we are always complimented how calm they are in the house and our simple answer is........train, walk and play.......everyday........it's a lifestyle you have become accustomed to everyday...it's not fairweather stuff ;)
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I must also stress that some of the show cocker's I see are also just as high maintenance.
That's so nice to hear you say that Mark.. I've had one of those and I swear no one believes me :lol2:
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Agree with Jaspers Mum above. And I'm another pet home working cocker owner who thinks they shouldn't really be in pet homes. ph34r
All thanks to Nicola, Alfie's pretty good. I let him do his own thing for an hour or so every morning and most days for another hour in the evenings. He's in huge, safe woods, his recall is good and the only thing I have to worry about is him flushing a roe deer. He's also good on the lead, but I know I will never go for a normal relaxed off-leash dog walk with him in a new place (what I call a labrador walk). I cannot trust him and I used to beat myself up about this but life's too short. Seems like I have to tell him to heel every 10 seconds, and sometimes he even has to think about that and decide whether he's got something more important going on. Around the house he's perfect. However, when we're out in fields and I do gundog-type stuff (within my limited knowledge) or set him tasks, his little face just lights up with joy.
Have to say, we rehomed a working springer from a working home when she was 5 or 6 and she adjusted to being a pet perfectly, but I think cockers are much more difficult than springers.
It's personal preference, but I just find the looks of a worker so much more attractive than show cockers but in all honesty I wouldn't take on another. But then, Alfie is my only benchmark. Maybe he's just loopier than most or maybe I'm the most inept dog owner in the world. I love him the way he is anyway.
What I want to know is - what about failed workers? They have to become pets don't they?
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It seems the working owners who have them as pets think it can be done, while those that do work their dogs can't see it working.
Or could it be that the pet owners who think it CAN be done are the ones that have been successful, and the ones who haven't are no longer around to comment :-\
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Agree with Jaspers Mum above. And I'm another pet home working cocker owner who thinks they shouldn't really be in pet homes. ph34r
All thanks to Nicola, Alfie's pretty good. I let him do his own thing for an hour or so every morning and most days for another hour in the evenings. He's in huge, safe woods, his recall is good and the only thing I have to worry about is him flushing a roe deer. He's also good on the lead, but I know I will never go for a normal relaxed off-leash dog walk with him in a new place (what I call a labrador walk). I cannot trust him and I used to beat myself up about this but life's too short. Seems like I have to tell him to heel every 10 seconds, and sometimes he even has to think about that and decide whether he's got something more important going on. Around the house he's perfect. However, when we're out in fields and I do gundog-type stuff (within my limited knowledge) or set him tasks, his little face just lights up with joy.
Have to say, we rehomed a working springer from a working home when she was 5 or 6 and she adjusted to being a pet perfectly, but I think cockers are much more difficult than springers.
It's personal preference, but I just find the looks of a worker so much more attractive than show cockers but in all honesty I wouldn't take on another. But then, Alfie is my only benchmark. Maybe he's just loopier than most or maybe I'm the most inept dog owner in the world. I love him the way he is anyway.
What I want to know is - what about failed workers? They have to become pets don't they?
Good point - Plenty of them in rescue isn't there :'(- unfortunately, not everyone will keep their dog because it isn't suited to their chosen activity and the dog loses out - many people who purely work their dogs just do not have the same attachment emotionally to their dogs........personally, I prefer not to say that Willow my Labrador is a failed worker but that her skills lay elsewhere....my sofa is always lovely and warm ;)
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What I want to know is - what about failed workers? They have to become pets don't they?
Clover breeder sold on his failed workers to pet homes. He said he has a huge waiting list as there is a surprising number of people looking for a fully trained dog. I wonder how they'd settle as they have experienced all that a working life has to offer and are then expected to settle in a home.
Clover was intended for working life however the breeder felt she was too small. This was decided at just a few days old so we collected her at 8 weeks she'd never had any working expereince to miss.
how do you know your pet working cocker is truly fulfilled until you've tried working them?
Good point. I would love to know how good my two could be if they'd been worked and see them at their best. I guess Id feel incredibly guilty that they've not been allowed to lead a life they would have loved. But then you can beat yourself up all day with the what if. And Im pretty sure they enjoy the life they have. Not many working dogs are allowed cuddles and to play with thier friends at the local park. Alot of dogs dont do anywhere near the number of activities I do with mine. I give them the best life Im capable of.
They are relatively good at the gun dog style training I do with them but I dont see an indiction that they enjoy it anymore or less than any other activity. But with my limited knowledge this maybe a reflection on how Im training it and maybe Im not pushing the right instinct buttons. Id love to give gu dog classes a go but I know the one local to us doesnt use methods I agree with. No matter how much they love it I couldnt bring myself to use the methods he prescribed. >:(
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Agree with Jaspers Mum above. And I'm another pet home working cocker owner who thinks they shouldn't really be in pet homes. ph34r
I'm not saying that they shouldn't be a pet dog, just that the "pet" home should be able to offer enough stimulation and exercise. In the case of my friend and his very young family and lots of commitments, I cannot see any dog going out for a every day, and when it does, it's most likely to be a 10 minute in the park and a longer walk at the weekend. However, they like the idea of a spaniel so I'm trying to push them to a CKCS instead of a cocker of either type. The problem is, he wants to get this dog for less than £300 and that is going to lead him towards the workers and the puppy farms :'(
Regarding high maintenance show types, I've got a couple of those too ;)
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I say Giz is a failed worker ::) :D As I say she was always intended to be a working dog, beating and picking up preferably, she didn't show any aptitude. Fortunatly given the way things worked out! I must admit that when it was relevant that it was a bit of a dissapointment but we always said, when talking to breeders etc that we wanted a worker but if they failed they would be a pet, by no means chucked out for another. Wherry started life as very much a 'working' style dog, kenneled over night, not on the sofa, definatly not in bed etc all training was geared toward gundog training, no squeaky toys or rug games etc. And it was certainly my fault that she made her way inside but when Ex realised that she could be a working dog and still a pet it was fine. He is very happy with the way it turned out now and would not go back. Maybe she would be a better worker if she had that more formal lifestyle, but she's good enough without it!
I think if people who take on workers and they don't meet the bar, if they can be responsible and have them rehomed, as is often the case, then there will be a lot of lucky new owners. Unfortunatly I do know of a few cases where they are 'disposed' of if they are not able or at the end of their useful life. There is such a vast range in w. cocker owners and breeders from old school shooting types to pet homes I don't think there is one type of owner and as such there can be such different views on what should be done with them.
When we got Wherry, Ex FIL was saying when he was a kid the way to teach a dog with bad recall was to put it in a sack and beat it then when it's let out make sure the owner is the first person it sees, love it and praise it and it'll never leave your side again :o :o
I guess that's what they did with failed workers then!!!!
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Agree with Jaspers Mum above. And I'm another pet home working cocker owner who thinks they shouldn't really be in pet homes. ph34r
I'm not saying that they shouldn't be a pet dog
I know you weren't JM. But I agreed with your post and also agreed with another poster re second sentence in the quote. I confused the issue by running the two things together.
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Jerry is a working cocker (although his mum was gun shy and not worked) and is a pet. He is very easy going and seems to love his life. Although we dont work him we do lots of obedience training, retrieving etc etc....he has miles and miles of fields and woodland to investigate and is suitably mentally stimulated. Would he be happier if we worked him? who can say, he's never done it..... This thread has made me think and possibly make me feel a bit guilty that he hasnt had the oppotunity to "work properly", but he is very calm in the house, has never been distructive or difficult to handle...what Im trying to say is that he has never given me any reason to think that he is frustrated or bored. He was going to a working home but they decided he wasnt suitable at 8 weeks old. Im not sure of the basis of this decision but the thought that he could have been taken and ending up a failed worker in a rehoming centre makes me feel physically sick, he loves people and he would be so depressed without all his cuddles and attention. The shortest walk he has is an hour long, my partner and I argue about who will take him out - not because nobody wants to but because we BOTH want to and someone has to stay with the children :005: water proof walking gear hangs in our shed-cum-boot room ph34r along side an array of dummys. He is exercised whatever the weather (to quote Billy Connolly - "theres no such thing as bad weather, just the wrong clothes") Are we doing him a injustice?? This thread has been food for thought guys, thank you.
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I know Millie is only half worker but I think she is a good example of a high drive dog being in the wrong home, she just made her own entertainment and escaped whenever she could to satisfy her needs. I think if she had been in the right home from a pup she would have made a fantastic working dog as she's bright, sharp and fearless in any cover. But she is now so obsessed with chasing furries that it's been a real uphill slog just to be able to go for a walk! I can get really really good results training in an open area, in fact my friend who showed us how to start tracking the other day was stunned at how quick she picked it up. I think there is also a fine line with Millie between the correct type/amount of exercise and over stimulation.
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I think as has been said it really does depend on the dog.
Out of my dogs two work, two dont and one (Seth) better had ph34r :005:
Flynns not a full worker and certainaly would never of worked, I dont know if thats his breeding or the fact he spent years in a puppy farm :-\
He does enjoy retreiving his dummys and I do gundog style training with him which he enjoys but I dont do much other training because hes just not into it.
Flynn would much rather be curled up with me on the sofa than out working and hes too stupid to train up. But as I said he isnt a full working cocker and he was treated horrendously before i got him so he really isnt a good example of a pet working cocker.
Amber would of been my best working dog if i had got my hands on her when she was younger, shes so biddable and quick to learn. Shes a joy to train with and her work training isnt far behind Jack and Bries. Shes got the best quatering pattern and is a better retreiver than Brie. I cant work her though because shes so stressy. Amber was a mess when i got her who barked, cowered and paniced at everything and just couldnt handle the real world. She would never, ever cope with a shoot her head would explode.
It really upsets me that because Amber wasnt allowed to do what she was bred for it left her such a mess. Of course again there are mitigating factors and if Amber had been in a good pet home who were meeting her needs maybe she wouldnt of been so screwed up and I think thats the key to workers in pet homes.
Amber gets the same training to the same level as jack and Brie, the only difference between the three is Amber does not actually go out on shoots during the season. Amber would of absolutly loved working if I had her from a pup, she adores the training and because so much of it is about self control its really helped her learn to relax. I honestly think she is missing out by not going working, its depriving her of not only what she was bred to do but also of a activity she would enjoy so much. Ok she doesnt know shes missing out but I do and it upsets me that we do an activity she would love so much but I cant let her be part of it because someone screwed her up before i got her.
Im not against workers in pet homes per say, people who are utterly commited to meeting their dogs needs and know what they are taking on and will do gun dog training to let them have that outlet can have happy dogs. I am absolutly against pet workers being bred and the breed being diluted down so they are easier to handle in a pet home. Nothing will ever convince me it is for the good of the breed its for the good of the people who want them and it is completly selfish and damaging to the dogs.
I think thats the big crux really, the amount of workers being bred and the amount that end up in rescue is just heart breaking. The problem is once they are in rescue they can of picked up so many issues that its really difficult to turn them around. Workers who are not having their needs met are a nightmare, they are stressy, unhappy, cant switch off, guardy and not very easy to live with dogs. They can be very, very difficult to rehome as they cant be worked and can take a lot of time to manage. The first six months of owning Amber I think I cried most days.
There just wasnt the amount of workers in rescue that there are now before they were being produced for the pet market, workers also were not in puppy farms before they became popular pets as they are now.
I think its easy to forget that COL members only amount to a very small percentage of cocker owners, people who are on COL are so much more clued up whereas Jo public really arent. There is a massive problem with working cockers at the moment both in terms of those in rescue and in whats being bred. I hate seeing a fifth generation pet bred dog who wouldnt be capable of a days work in its life.
I think working cockers are being ruined from all angles at the moment and its the dogs that are paying the price.
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I am absolutly against pet workers being bred and the breed being diluted down so they are easier to handle in a pet home. Nothing will ever convince me it is for the good of the breed its for the good of the people who want them and it is completly selfish and damaging to the dogs.
I think thats the big crux really, the amount of workers being bred and the amount that end up in rescue is just heart breaking. The problem is once they are in rescue they can of picked up so many issues that its really difficult to turn them around. Workers who are not having their needs met are a nightmare, they are stressy, unhappy, cant switch off, guardy and not very easy to live with dogs. They can be very, very difficult to rehome as they cant be worked and can take a lot of time to manage. The first six months of owning Amber I think I cried most days.
There just wasnt the amount of workers in rescue that there are now before they were being produced for the pet market, workers also were not in puppy farms before they became popular pets as they are now.
I think its easy to forget that COL members only amount to a very small percentage of cocker owners, people who are on COL are so much more clued up whereas Jo public really arent. There is a massive problem with working cockers at the moment both in terms of those in rescue and in whats being bred. I hate seeing a fifth generation pet bred dog who wouldnt be capable of a days work in its life.
I think working cockers are being ruined from all angles at the moment and its the dogs that are paying the price.
Couldn't agree more! Well said. ;)
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I think what Crazy Cocker Gang has said about COL owners is a big consideration to this debate....
Those of us with "pet" workers aren't your average pet home... while I don't do gundog training with Honey, I looked into it, and if she had truly "come alive" in the 1-1 gundog lesson we had, I'd have persued it more... but agility is what she really enjoys...
The gundog lesson we had did give me better tools to get her retrieving under an element of control, though... and she does love playing ball - but it's play, not work!
Your average pet home is more likely to be a family who will take a pup to puppy classes, teach it to sit, down and possibly a couple of other tricks... might achieve a reasonable recall, and will then expect the dog to fit in with their life. And I doubt there are many Workers who would cope with that lifestyle...
As an aside, I suspect the majority of the show cocker owners on here also wouldn't count as your typical pet home - we are all people who have chosen to put in extra effort into our dogs by seeking out information from other owners... ;)
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Your average pet home is more likely to be a family who will take a pup to puppy classes, teach it to sit, down and possibly a couple of other tricks... might achieve a reasonable recall, and will then expect the dog to fit in with their life. And I doubt there are many Workers who would cope with that lifestyle...
Actually its not even that good in a average pet home. they tend to know nothing about dogs and dont do any training or attend any classes then when the dog starts displaying unwanted behaviours because its bored they scream at the dog and blame them for their behaviour.
Not a cocker but a lady had a boxer puppy the same age as jack and walks in the same place we do. She thought i was cruel training jack and that dogs should just be allowed to be dogs ::)
She never taught her dog to recall, me and nic watched her the other day screaming at her poor dog to come back and then getting angry at the dog when it wouldnt >:(
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Those of us with "pet" workers aren't your average pet home... while I don't do gundog training with Honey, I looked into it, and if she had truly "come alive" in the 1-1 gundog lesson we had, I'd have persued it more... but agility is what she really enjoys...
I was talking more about going right through the training and watching the dog actually working when I said that it makes them 'come alive'; while they certainly enjoy the training I don't think I could have judged that effect on my lot from one lesson either :005:
There is a point in the training - I've seen it with every dog I've trained or helped to train be they Springer or Cocker - where it seems to click with them that this is what they're meant to do. It's often once they start to get proper exposure to game and all the training really comes together for them.
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I don't know what a "normal" home is really. Woodstock is farm bred working cocker but both his mother and grandmother were farmhouse pets and not worked as gundogs. As far as I know none of his litter went for gundog training either. But they were all sold to local, country people who were well known to the family.
Woods now has about an hour every morning of walk/run/swim more off lead than on through farmland and along the canal and lanes. He then more often than not has a quick blast across the fields again in the evening for about 25-30mins. Now this may be far too much commitment to "normal" homes I don't know.
I do know that we absolutely enjoys life to the max every day :D and I would think that a 10 min lead walk on pavements twice a day would probably drive him insane with boredom so if that's part of "normal" then may be workers shouldn't be there.
Bx
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An interesting thread this one. TBH I didn't realise how different working cockers can be to the show kind. Our previous dog was a show cocker and Sizzles seems like a nutter compared to him! Sizzles' parents were both worked, she was brought up outside on a farm. I :luv: seeing her out darting into bushes, flushing the birds out and leaping around with a grin on her face.
We have a young family but take it in turns (husband and I) to walk her morning and night for at least 30 mins a time. Husband works from home so she is not alone during the day and the kids love playing with her when they get home from school. I hope that we are doing enough with her as I'd hate to think she wasn't being stimulated enough. We go to puppy classes every week at the moment, play lots of hiding games and fetching. She impressed everyone at classes with her brilliant training too :luv:
I think she is going to make a great pet and we are well aware that she is going to need a LOT of mental stimulation - just got to keep it up!
Katie
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I am absolutly against pet workers being bred and the breed being diluted down so they are easier to handle in a pet home. Nothing will ever convince me it is for the good of the breed its for the good of the people who want them and it is completly selfish and damaging to the dogs.
Although I agree with other points you have made I disagree with this – it is not damaging to dogs or selfish to breed dogs that fit the purpose/home that they will end up in. What IS selfish and damaging is breading dogs that will not fit in/be suitable for the home they are destined for. This is the case when commercial breeders/puppy farmers bread indiscriminately (eg just for colour ignoring temperament) or when for instance a gamekeeper wanting another pup to train offloads excess often highly strung/unstable pups on unsuspecting pet owners or inexperienced working owners.
I really don’t see that the presence of third or fourth generation pet dogs would in anyway detract from knowledgeable/professional hunters/trainers who will continue to purchase dogs of favoured lines/known hunting ability.
I personally don’t like the idea that anyone should bread hunting dogs that can’t adapt to life in an active pet home. After all, even if a breeder only sells to working homes, as I know some do, then some of those dogs are almost certainly going to end up in pet homes for one reason or another.
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There are 100s of breeds of dogs and 10s of thousands being bred each year so yes to change a strain and breed more dogs so people can have a pet is completely selfish. It is being done to meet peoples needs not the dogs needs.
It is adding to an already huge dog population for no good reason.
What are we going to end up with show cockers with a shorter coat, pet workers and working workers. Who exactly is that good for?
And I suppose rescues will be the ones picking up the pieces while this new strain is being evolved.
Why is there a need for it?
One last thing I have a cocker that couldn't adapt to a pet home, she is exactly what a worker should be and if people can't handle that type of worker they should look at a different breed rather than changing it.
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I didn't really want to get involved with this thread but, I do have to add at this point that all the breeds that are around today were bred and designed for 'selfish' human requirements, including the Working Cocker... we've mutated a wild animal over 1000's of years to provide us with dogs that excel at and do different things for US and along the way, there have been millions of 'not quite fit for purpose' casualties.
The mutations (or different breeds) we have today, with time will also change to meet 'our' needs and requirements. I'm sure shoots will always be around and I don't know how common place they are today compared with 100 years ago but today, largely and more than ever before, the dog is a pet/companion. All manner of breeders including those with the working cockers best interests at heart are producing more dogs than I suspect are needed for just working owners and as we all know, not all puppies from litters of that type of stock are fit to work but some still carry the traits that make them difficult to manage, so where do these excess dogs go? They have to go to pet homes or be destroyed and if they have to go to pet homes then surely they also have to be suitable for that and ultimately trying to breed a level of 'pet home suitability' into workers could actually help the breed long term? If not then there will always always be a problem for these dogs and a lot of casualties... surely that is more selfish?
I have an unsuitable pet dog that causes me no end of grief at times, but I love her dearly and I do my best to stimulate her and provide her with a good life. She isn't suitable for working because she ended up in a loving but naive home and didn't get the right start in life for her breed because her breeder bred too many pups for for the shooting market to take so she went to a well intentioned pet home and it didn't work and they couldn't hack it. I don't know if Normy would have made a good working dog, she has the skills but she's an emotional mess and overly sensitive and who knows if this is a result of her start in life or if she would never have been a good working dog anyway. Her breeder is also what we on this site would largely consider 'responsible' in that she helps rehome her pups for their lifetime, her breeding stock is health tested, fed raw diets, they get to work, the prospective puppy owners are vetted etc etc.. but there aren't enough homes for these working dogs as 'working dogs' and therefore, people like me and you end up trying to offer these not quite up to it dogs what we can - but it's not ideal and I'm not normal and doing it costs me and my family in other ways.
Surely the way forward, is to concentrate on a 'super dog' that can adapt to other things if needed - does that have to mean diluting the true nature of the breed or is it actually kinder to design something for the world as it is today?
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There are 100s of breeds of dogs and 10s of thousands being bred each year so yes to change a strain and breed more dogs so people can have a pet is completely selfish. It is being done to meet peoples needs not the dogs needs.
All dogs are being bread to meet peoples needs - arnt they ?? ph34r:lol2:
Anyway there might be 100s of breeds of dog but there is only one working cocker ;) - and many if not most, adapt great to an active pet home.
And I suppose rescues will be the ones picking up the pieces while this new strain is being evolved.
Who is talking about a new strain?? :huh:- dogs breed with care - for a sound temprement, are less likely to end up in rescue. It is breading from dogs that have such a high drive/unstable temprement, that they cant adapt to family life, that ends up with dogs in rescue.
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I didn't really want to get involved with this thread but, I do have to add at this point that all the breeds that are around today were bred and designed for 'selfish' human requirements, including the Working Cocker... we've mutated a wild animal over 1000's of years to provide us with dogs that excel at and do different things for US and along the way, there have been millions of 'not quite fit for purpose' casualties.
The mutations (or different breeds) we have today, with time will also change to meet 'our' needs and requirements. I'm sure shoots will always be around and I don't know how common place they are today compared with 100 years ago but today, largely and more than ever before, the dog is a pet/companion. All manner of breeders including those with the working cockers best interests at heart are producing more dogs than I suspect are needed for just working owners and as we all know, not all puppies from litters of that type of stock are fit to work but some still carry the traits that make them difficult to manage, so where do these excess dogs go? They have to go to pet homes or be destroyed and if they have to go to pet homes then surely they also have to be suitable for that and ultimately trying to breed a level of 'pet home suitability' into workers could actually help the breed long term? If not then there will always always be a problem for these dogs and a lot of casualties... surely that is more selfish?
I have an unsuitable pet dog that causes me no end of grief at times, but I love her dearly and I do my best to stimulate her and provide her with a good life. She isn't suitable for working because she ended up in a loving but naive home and didn't get the right start in life for her breed because her breeder bred too many pups for for the shooting market to take so she went to a well intentioned pet home and it didn't work and they couldn't hack it. I don't know if Normy would have made a good working dog, she has the skills but she's an emotional mess and overly sensitive and who knows if this is a result of her start in life or if she would never have been a good working dog anyway. Her breeder is also what we on this site would largely consider 'responsible' in that she helps rehome her pups for their lifetime, her breeding stock is health tested, fed raw diets, they get to work, the prospective puppy owners are vetted etc etc.. but there aren't enough homes for these working dogs as 'working dogs' and therefore, people like me and you end up trying to offer these not quite up to it dogs what we can - but it's not ideal and I'm not normal and doing it costs me and my family in other ways.
Surely the way forward, is to concentrate on a 'super dog' that can adapt to other things if needed - does that have to mean diluting the true nature of the breed or is it actually kinder to design something for the world as it is today?
Couldn’t agree more!
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There are 100s of breeds of dogs and 10s of thousands being bred each year so yes to change a strain and breed more dogs so people can have a pet is completely selfish. It is being done to meet peoples needs not the dogs needs.
All dogs are being bread to meet peoples needs - arnt they ?? ph34r:lol2:
Anyway there might be 100s of breeds of dog but there is only one working cocker ;) - and many if not most, adapt great to an active pet home.
And I suppose rescues will be the ones picking up the pieces while this new strain is being evolved.
Who is talking about a new strain?? :huh:- dogs breed with care - for a sound temprement, are less likely to end up in rescue. It is breading from dogs that have such a high drive/unstable temprement, that they cant adapt to family life, that ends up with dogs in rescue.
A high drive dog generally only has a unstable temperment if its need haven't been met and humans have messed it up.
Yes dogs were of course bred and adapted to meet our needs but I don't see why we feel the need to change them again when there is no benefit to the dog.
If less dogs were bred and people choose the dog to meet there needs there wouldn't be the problems there are.
As I said before workers were not in puppy farms and rescues before the breed became popular in the main stream.
Im bowing out now because I'm never going to believe workers should be changed to meet demand.
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For the record, I'm certainly not suggesting they should be changed to meet demand - more to cope in the world in which most of them are ending up in. I don't think anyone on this site, including me agrees with the number of dogs being bred - but because there is a market for 'top level' workers and prize winning show dogs... by default, breeding those dogs has become a numbers game hasn't it and that means too many dogs being bred at all levels.
I also don't think 'Changing them again' is what we're talking about. Breeds are constantly evolving, as are all natural and controlled bred species and change in some way or another is inevitable - in another 100 years, the world will be a very different place and all life will have to adapt to that.
I don't like hearing stories of Working type dogs being rehomed anymore than anyone else on this site but I think that there is also a harsh reality that if you want a very specific type of dog, that in itself will ultimately also contribute to the numbers problem and suitable home problem in conjunction with puppy farms and fashionable pets... :-\
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Agree with Hannah all the way – no one wants to change working cockers into some sort of watered down version of a show cocker.
The attributes that make them good workers also make them great pets in SOME types of pet home.
The dogs that end up in rescue are often failed workers – some of them fail not because they are low drive but because they are too high drive to be trained by the working owners that take them on. Dumping these dogs onto the pet market is unforgivable. >:D
With regard to there being too many dogs – whilst I don’t disagree, I believe not breading from pet workers is only going to make the problem worse. The law of supply and demand dictates that if dogs aren’t available from caring pet homes, then pups will be bread by either unscrupulous working kennels or puppy farms.
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Jo, as you know, even certain people (you know who I mean) who claim to share your oppinion seem to conveniently forget what they preach for the sake of a few quid when studding their dog.
I see the results all the time.
Breeds evolve over time whether that be to the credit or detriment of the breed, I don't see how that will ever change.
I see your point about it being selfish but I'm afraid there are some selfish folks out there.
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I don't think anyone on this site, including me agrees with the number of dogs being bred - but because there is a market for 'top level' workers and prize winning show dogs... by default, breeding those dogs has become a numbers game hasn't it and that means too many dogs being bred at all levels.
Mmm don't really agree with that. The huge number of puppies being bred today has very little to do with producing either "top level" workers or prize winning show dogs and everything to do with profit. Only a small number of breeders (relatively speaking) are dedicated to their particular discipline (whether working or showing) - most breed because they think they can make a few quid (and of course the bigger producers do) or they think it's a good idea to have a litter because their pet is so nice and is bound to have equally nice puppies (regardless of where those puppies ultimately end up).
Those of us who breed show-type dogs and actually show have already seen what happens when pet breeders breed purely for the pet market - another type of Cocker has already evolved loosely described as show-type but they are far removed from dogs that are actually shown often being poorly constructed and lacking in breed type. It's one of my pet hates when pet breeders who have never set foot in the show ring and make no effort to breed to the breed standard describe themselves as "show breeders" or "show kennels" on their websites but that's by the by ph34r I guess the same thing will happen and is already happening with working strain dogs so can certainly understand why people feel the way they do on this thread - I just don't think there is a way to stop it when breeding dogs is pretty much a free for all in the country.
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At the end of the day isnt it the people who had the much rarer working type who worked them and then who bred them and then sold them to people who again bred them and now they are more common on certain selling sites than show type cockers when bruno was a pup 10 years ago hardly anyone had heard of workers,and you could trace them back to certain lineage, surely if the breeders had been more selective about who they sold to eg only other hunting / working homes and took any pups back, that didnt make the grade this situation wouldnt be as bad as it is, but realistically they wouldnt want them back , would they, >:(
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At the end of the day isnt it the people who had the much rarer working type who worked them and then who bred them and then sold them to people who again bred them and now they are more common on certain selling sites than show type cockers when bruno was a pup 10 years ago hardly anyone had heard of workers,and you could trace them back to certain lineage, surely if the breeders had been more selective about who they sold to eg only other hunting / working homes and took any pups back, that didnt make the grade this situation wouldnt be as bad as it is, but realistically they wouldnt want them back , would they, >:(
There will always be rejected workers. Not good enough to make the grade who will have to go to pet homes though. My little girl was from a working farm, with working parents whoses siblings all went to various working homes. However she was considered too small and was sold to me as a pet
My two completely suit my lifestlye. I picked them for that reason and I dont think its fair to suggest that I shouldnt be allowed to own the dogs that are so completely what I want in a dog. Because of people like me I was able to give a home to a pup that the breeder felt would never be suitable to excel in a working life.
However I would never breed from them as I know they will have very little appeal to the working market and I agree that lots of pet homes would struggle with such a dog. I also would never purchase a working dog from a pet home (again as my first dog was second generation pet) as like many I dont completely agree with breeding a working dog that for one reason or another isnt being worked
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Sarah1985 i am certainly not saying people should or shouldnt be allowed to own a certain type of dog, and neither did i suggest it in my post , i have one show type who i had at 2yrs from a breeder, one working type who came from a puppy farm and a cocker who has show and working type in her and has quite a few FTCH in her pedigree, she was also 2 ish when i had her, mine are all pets , they get alot of exercise , i am saying that the breeders of what was quite a rare dog out of the working dog world, holds some responsability for the way they have now ended up in so many pet homes regardless of type of dog
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I don't think anyone on this site, including me agrees with the number of dogs being bred - but because there is a market for 'top level' workers and prize winning show dogs... by default, breeding those dogs has become a numbers game hasn't it and that means too many dogs being bred at all levels.
Mmm don't really agree with that. The huge number of puppies being bred today has very little to do with producing either "top level" workers or prize winning show dogs and everything to do with profit. Only a small number of breeders (relatively speaking) are dedicated to their particular discipline (whether working or showing) - most breed because they think they can make a few quid (and of course the bigger producers do) or they think it's a good idea to have a litter because their pet is so nice and is bound to have equally nice puppies (regardless of where those puppies ultimately end up).
Those of us who breed show-type dogs and actually show have already seen what happens when pet breeders breed purely for the pet market - another type of Cocker has already evolved loosely described as show-type but they are far removed from dogs that are actually shown often being poorly constructed and lacking in breed type. It's one of my pet hates when pet breeders who have never set foot in the show ring and make no effort to breed to the breed standard describe themselves as "show breeders" or "show kennels" on their websites but that's by the by ph34r I guess the same thing will happen and is already happening with working strain dogs so can certainly understand why people feel the way they do on this thread - I just don't think there is a way to stop it when breeding dogs is pretty much a free for all in the country.
Sorry Jane, I was a bit tired when I wrote that and didn't make my point very well. Comparing show and working types in the same way within what I said isn't so relevent as obviously show types do fit into most pet homes well if they don't make the grade for showing. My point was that to get any number of top level dogs, more dogs than are needed have to be bred because within a litter not all the pups will have that full potential, so there will be surplus dogs not suitable for competing or working homes and those pups will end up in pet homes still carrying the traits that might make them very difficult to manage.. even if they were originally bred with the best interests of improving the breed traits.
I just feel that it's wrong to discriminate against pet homes that are trying to give these surplus dogs a reasonable and full life as all types of breeders, however well intentioned, will be producing working dogs that end up needing a lot of help in some of these just pet homes.
There are separate issues with mass market production of these breeds I totally agree, but I think it's important to stand back and see the bigger picture which also includes well intentioned breeders of high maintenance working type dogs.
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Just a little point from someone who wouldn't profess to know a lot about working or show type. I,like a lot of members didn't realise there were two strains of cocker spaniel and certainly don't understand the,what seems to me to be a major divide. Now Bonnie Boo comes from a line of working cockers but I am sure that on a daily basis I exercise and stimulate her and that she is a happy dog. My little point is and correct me if I am wrong. The shooting season only lasts for a few months out of the year, and yes i know there are working trials. I cant however, believe that even the committed working cocker owner on a daily basis puts their dog through what they would experience on a shoot/trial. So if I am right about this then for the many many days out of the year what does the owner/worker do with their dogs.
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Just a little point from someone who wouldn't profess to know a lot about working or show type. I,like a lot of members didn't realise there were two strains of cocker spaniel and certainly don't understand the,what seems to me to be a major divide. Now Bonnie Boo comes from a line of working cockers but I am sure that on a daily basis I exercise and stimulate her and that she is a happy dog. My little point is and correct me if I am wrong. The shooting season only lasts for a few months out of the year, and yes i know there are working trials. I cant however, believe that even the committed working cocker owner on a daily basis puts their dog through what they would experience on a shoot/trial. So if I am right about this then for the many many days out of the year what does the owner/worker do with their dogs.
Good point......no I certainly don't work them the same every day...they need to be rested in between - a shoot can last from anything up to 8 hours depending on the clock change bringing about darkness - certainly the day after a shoot, the boys need a 'chill down'. For us, we may clear distinctions - 2 types of 'walks' we do with them.....1) the local park with tennis balls and balls on strings and all their local doggy friends = this is just play and socialising - in essence, just being one of the other non-working dogs and then 2) wooded areas to train - retrieving dummies, hunting in cover, practicing everything that possibly might occur on a shoot where possible. In addition to this, training days with our trainer to work through any things that need strengthening upon.
Our life is varied - the only thing the dogs can be certain of is a walk somewhere - keeps them on their toes but allows them to have a break too ;)
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Who is talking about a new strain?? :huh:- dogs breed with care - for a sound temprement, are less likely to end up in rescue. It is breading from dogs that have such a high drive/unstable temprement, that they cant adapt to family life, that ends up with dogs in rescue.
A high drive dog generally only has a unstable temperment if its need haven't been met and humans have messed it up.
Quite. Caoimhe has an incredibly high drive but she is of perfectly sound temperament because she is constantly having her needs met. Why should I or anyone expect her to change or to adapt to a purely pet home, she's a fabulous example of true breed type. It's all about what the people want and not what's best for the dogs.
Agree with Hannah all the way – no one wants to change working cockers into some sort of watered down version of a show cocker.
The attributes that make them good workers also make them great pets in SOME types of pet home.
The dogs that end up in rescue are often failed workers – some of them fail not because they are low drive but because they are too high drive to be trained by the working owners that take them on. Dumping these dogs onto the pet market is unforgivable. >:D
With regard to there being too many dogs – whilst I don’t disagree, I believe not breading from pet workers is only going to make the problem worse. The law of supply and demand dictates that if dogs aren’t available from caring pet homes, then pups will be bread by either unscrupulous working kennels or puppy farms.
Proportionately very few working Cockers that are in rescue or rehomed are 'failed workers', the vast majority come from unsuitable pet homes. I'm sure if you contact a rescue like NESSR or Spaniels in Need they'll verify that for you. And breeding from pet workers for the pet market is going to do exactly what you say you don't want to happen in the first sentence - it's going to create a watered-down version which is pretty far removed from how the dogs should be so there are effectively going to be two strains of working Cockers - proper true to type working dogs who are fit for purpose and the diluted 'pet' version.
Those of us who breed show-type dogs and actually show have already seen what happens when pet breeders breed purely for the pet market - another type of Cocker has already evolved loosely described as show-type but they are far removed from dogs that are actually shown often being poorly constructed and lacking in breed type. It's one of my pet hates when pet breeders who have never set foot in the show ring and make no effort to breed to the breed standard describe themselves as "show breeders" or "show kennels" on their websites but that's by the by ph34r I guess the same thing will happen and is already happening with working strain dogs so can certainly understand why people feel the way they do on this thread - I just don't think there is a way to stop it when breeding dogs is pretty much a free for all in the country.
It's exactly the same with working dogs with the split as I described above. There are far, far too many dogs being bred overall, pet dogs and working dogs. The vast majority is pet breeding, breeding for profit and breeding just for the sake of it - often the result of the unfortunately still-prevailing attitude amongst a lot of working/shooting people that if you have a dog you'll offer it for stud and if you have a bitch you'll take a few litters from her, it's just the 'done thing' and they're often not too fussy about where the pups go. I blame the irresponsible/casual breeders every bit as much if not more than the people who do too little research or who are unrealistic about the type of dog that they can offer the most appropriate lifestyle to.
I cant however, believe that even the committed working cocker owner on a daily basis puts their dog through what they would experience on a shoot/trial. So if I am right about this then for the many many days out of the year what does the owner/worker do with their dogs.
You can shoot rabbits etc. all year and Rodaidh has also been dogging in pheasants on the estate for the last few months. In the 'off' season the dogs can train, do scurries and working tests etc. I work on any issues that may have cropped up in the previous season and prepare for the coming one, we practice everything and learn new stuff. Of course I don't spend 7 or 8 hours a day 365 days a year letting them flush and retrieve pheasants, it's not possible and they need time off, but it's not the case that they only get to work or practise what they do for a couple of months out of the year.
For a trialling dog in particular the training is intensive and continual, Caoimhe's first competition is in a couple of weeks and she's been in training since last year with it having been particularly intensive for the last few months, she has training 6 days a week and has been going on 1 or 2 simulated shoot/trial days every week - she's had dozens of head of rabbit, pheasant and partridge shot to her before she even gets a sniff of a trial.
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I couldn't agree more. Sadly all the working cockers I've had through my hands have come from pet homes. Not one (and all were/are pedigree workers) has come in as a "failed gundog".
Dilution occurs when you are breeding for the wrong reasons, in the case of the working cocker breeding for a pet home market ie quieter less "drive", or in the case which Jane puts of the show cocker being bred with scant regards for the "breed standard". Both types are without a shadow of a doubt being overbred purely for money, or some strange attitude that all dogs must be used at stud to be real dogs and all bitches must have a litter - that attitude is as outdated as the '60s should be confined to the dustbin where it belongs.
The sad truth is that many, many cockers of both types are being destroyed each year because we aren't meeting their needs. It's time to stop breeding for selfish reasons and consider the future of each and every pup produced. The law must change if people's attitudes don't, and I don't think that's too far away. :shades:
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I cant however, believe that even the committed working cocker owner on a daily basis puts their dog through what they would experience on a shoot/trial. So if I am right about this then for the many many days out of the year what does the owner/worker do with their dogs.
We train for the season and working tests. We attend a gundog group anywhere from 1 to 3 times a week. We do basic obedience, advanced work and retrieving, spaniel class, practice hunting, retrieving skills, steadyness, working with other dogs, dummy launchers and water work. We go dogging in, have working tests and fun days.
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Proportionately very few working Cockers that are in rescue or rehomed are failed workers, the vast majority come from unsuitable pet homes. I'm sure if you contact a rescue like NESSR or Spaniels in Need they'll verify that for you.
Could it not be – correct me if I’m wrong, that it will very much depend on your definition of failed workers. If you include dogs from a working kennels that are sold on to pet homes because they are surplus to requirements/unsuitable and or perhaps as a money earner on the side, then I think many would probably be considered failed workers.
Caoimhe has an incredibly high drive but she is of perfectly sound temperament because she is constantly having her needs met. Why should I or anyone expect her to change or to adapt to a purely pet home, she's a fabulous example of true breed type. It's all about what the people want and not what's best for the dogs.
Many good steady workers (and perhaps even some champion dogs?) do not share Caoimhe’s incredibly high drive and unsuitability as a pet. Is it not fairer on the dogs to bread in greater adaptability – after all ,who knows what the future will bring – Shooting could even go the way of fox hunting eventually. [There is after all a sizable minority already in favour of a ban on all blood sports].
Just because a dog isn’t worked it doesn’t mean that it is unsuitable for working. Saffi is a pet but her father, grandparents and some of her siblings are worked – she could have been worked but isn’t. In addition many dogs that are worked are also family pets – many workers need to be able to cope with family life.
The subset of “Pet” homes that suit working cockers actually want many of the same attributes as working homes anyway. Inelegance, stamina and enthusiasm, the more practical coat and ears and lower tendency to bark are just, nice to have, added bonuses. I see no drive to produce dogs that would not be able to work -only to produce dogs capable of adapting to family life.
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Proportionately very few working Cockers that are in rescue or rehomed are failed workers, the vast majority come from unsuitable pet homes. I'm sure if you contact a rescue like NESSR or Spaniels in Need they'll verify that for you.
Could it not be – correct me if I’m wrong, that it will very much depend on your definition of failed workers. If you include dogs from a working kennels that are sold on to pet homes because they are surplus to requirements/unsuitable and or perhaps as a money earner on the side, then I think many would probably be considered failed workers.
A dog can't be a 'failed worker' if it has never been trained or used for working - these dogs are coming from unsuitable pet homes. Be it the fault of the breeder, the buyer or both that they ended up there in the first place. Imo both have a responsibility that is sadly often not taken into consideration, to the detriment of the dogs.
Caoimhe has an incredibly high drive but she is of perfectly sound temperament because she is constantly having her needs met. Why should I or anyone expect her to change or to adapt to a purely pet home, she's a fabulous example of true breed type. It's all about what the people want and not what's best for the dogs.
Many good steady workers (and perhaps even some champion dogs?) do not share Caoimhe’s incredibly high drive and unsuitability as a pet. Is it not fairer on the dogs to bread in greater adaptability – after all ,who knows what the future will bring – Shooting could even go the way of fox hunting eventually. [There is after all a sizable minority already in favour of a ban on all blood sports].
Rather than trying to change the breed imo it would be 'fairer' to breed far, far fewer dogs and only the best quality and sell them to suitable homes.
I don't have a problem with working dogs also being pets, all mine are. My problem is with people trying to change the strain and producing watered down un-true to type dogs purely for the pet market. I said in my first post in this thread I think that some of them can make good pets for the right homes - i.e. the kind of home that wants to either do some working with them or participate in some other activities. To me though it should be up to the people to make sure they're suitable for the dog, not the other way around.
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I don't have a problem with working dogs also being pets, all mine are. My problem is with people trying to change the strain and producing watered down un-true to type dogs purely for the pet market. I said in my first post in this thread I think that some of them can make good pets for the right homes - i.e. the kind of home that wants to either do some working with them or participate in some other activities. To me though it should be up to the people to make sure they're suitable for the dog, not the other way around.
I don't get this idea either - if this is the case then may be a different breed all together is what some pet owners should have rather than changing the breed so much to their own needs and in most cases market needs.
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I don't have a problem with working dogs also being pets, all mine are. My problem is with people trying to change the strain and producing watered down un-true to type dogs purely for the pet market. I said in my first post in this thread I think that some of them can make good pets for the right homes - i.e. the kind of home that wants to either do some working with them or participate in some other activities. To me though it should be up to the people to make sure they're suitable for the dog, not the other way around.
I don't get this idea either - if this is the case then may be a different breed all together is what some pet owners should have rather than changing the breed so much to their own needs and in most cases market needs.
Agree with Penny and Nicola.
I just don't understand why people desperately want working cockers but don't embrace the very parts of the dog that make it what it is....
so in 30 years time when all the indiscriminate pet working cocker breeders have bred their dogs that aren't fit for purpose what will we have? The dog won't need the long ears for swooshing the scent around it's nose, the lovely square muzzle (already getting snipey in some lines) won't be necessary as they won't be picking up game, the very structure of the dog won't be required so will be leggy and rangy and won't have that determined little cocker gait, the zest for life and spirit for hunting will be watered down completely.....I don't want to go on as I don't want to contemplate it :-\
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To me though it should be up to the people to make sure they're suitable for the dog, not the other way around.
I completely agree with this. If you select a particualar type of dog it should be because thats the right dog for you. you have to be happy to take on both good and bad traits.
If those traits arent right for you why not look at one of the many other dog breeds out there.
If you take on a dog you have a responsibility to meet its needs. With the huge wealth of information available there really is no excuse for picking the wrong dog.
I personally think that this is why rescue are overrun. Lack of research coupled with a throw away society. You need to go into a dog purchase with a complete understanding of what your taking on. Its not about taking on a cute puppy and then wondering why its developing the traits it was bred to have.
And rather than attempt to tackle the problem they take the easy way out and give up on the dog with this idea that the dog will be better off in a new home. Would they give up on their kids so easierly or would they work with their kids to ensure they are fully meeting their needs ph34r
I would like to think Laws of supply and demand would discourage breeding as there is no money to be made from it. Surely after a couple of litter that sold at a loss or couldnt be sold they'd realise that breeding isnt a good idea. or am I giving breeders too much credit?
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Sarah, yes you are giving bad breeders too much credit ;)
It's not supply and demand - it's now supply and 'I want' ::)
Ages ago I spoke to a friend who breeds working working cockers and asked what her pre-requisites for buying her puppies were - here are the bones of them (and this is purely so you can see how she chooses where they go, it's not a stab at anyone at the board ;) )
The Musts
- Must go to working & pet home - if solely working then she must know them personally and how the dogs are trained and kennelled etc
- No children under 10
- Must have country home, definitely not city
- Must have experience of at least a working gundog breed
those are the ones that stuck in my head - she has dozens more 'rules', very much like a rescue really. She only breeds from her bitches twice, all her litters are pre-sold and in the very unusual event that a dog has to be re-homed (emigration has been the only reason she can recall) then it comes back to her.
Her dogs are bred first and foremost for working ability, biddability, health and temperament. Colour isn't a factor. It's rare that you can actually get any of her puppies as they are always pre-booked.
Compare that to the 'I want' free ads on the internet with the cute photo's of hundreds of puppies on them - I want a working cocker puppy, I want a chocolate/lemon/black and tan one (insert favourite colour there :lol2:) and I want it NOW....and I bet you can get one within a few hours if you have the cash available.
But is that right for the breed?
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Sarah, yes you are giving bad breeders too much credit ;)
It's not supply and demand - it's now supply and 'I want' ::)
Ages ago I spoke to a friend who breeds working working cockers and asked what her pre-requisites for buying her puppies were - here are the bones of them (and this is purely so you can see how she chooses where they go, it's not a stab at anyone at the board ;) )
The Musts
- Must go to working & pet home - if solely working then she must know them personally and how the dogs are trained and kennelled etc
- No children under 10
- Must have country home, definitely not city
- Must have experience of at least a working gundog breed
those are the ones that stuck in my head - she has dozens more 'rules', very much like a rescue really. She only breeds from her bitches twice, all her litters are pre-sold and in the very unusual event that a dog has to be re-homed (emigration has been the only reason she can recall) then it comes back to her.
Her dogs are bred first and foremost for working ability, biddability, health and temperament. Colour isn't a factor. It's rare that you can actually get any of her puppies as they are always pre-booked.
Compare that to the 'I want' free ads on the internet with the cute photo's of hundreds of puppies on them - I want a working cocker puppy, I want a chocolate/lemon/black and tan one (insert favourite colour there :lol2:) and I want it NOW....and I bet you can get one within a few hours if you have the cash available.
But is that right for the breed?
It's a real shame there aren't more breeders like her and she's in the overwhelming minority.
Whilst I believe very firmly that the responsibility for any dog and owner lays between the breeder and the puppy buyer, at the end of the day it's the breeders that have more experience and if they were more ethical about what they were breeding and where it was going... then the scale of the problem would be a lot less. But in general, they're not and lots of unsuitable homes that end up with workers (or indeed show cockers or any other dog).... because 'they want' and the breeders don't set them straight. Daisy being a recent classic case - IMO puppies shouldn't go to homes with babies/toddlers unless that home is very experienced with puppies, knows what's in store and can prove they have the knowledge and logistics in place to manage that, before we even get started on the whole issue of managing energy levels, stimulation and training for a working dog and her breeder will have known that...
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Could it not be – correct me if I’m wrong, that it will very much depend on your definition of failed workers.
Your concept of "working" is wrong, you can't fail something if you haven't been tested. ;)
- If a dog has not been worked in the field it is simply a working type cocker
- If it has been tested in the field and not met kennel standards then and only then is it a failed gundog/worker.
Trying to suggest that pups bred in working kennels have been tested and failed before sale is totally crazy, pups surplus to requirement from working kennels are simply working type cockers. Just exactly the same as those bred by backyard breeders or pet owners, much of the definition "working worker" is in the gundog training which does not start until the pup is around 6 months old. The most usual reason for failure from working kennels is a dog being gun shy.
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Whilst I believe very firmly that the responsibility for any dog and owner lays between the breeder and the puppy buyer, at the end of the day it's the breeders that have more experience and if they were more ethical about what they were breeding and where it was going... then the scale of the problem would be a lot less.
If only it was true that the breeders always have more experience - of course some do but so many litters are the product of someone with a pet bitch deciding it would be nice to have a litter or two; they have no idea what they are doing or that they should vet future owners and as for taking back a pup if something goes wrong, that wouldn't even occur to them. I think someone has already mentioned about stud dog owners on this thread and they should definitely share a lot of the blame for some of the irresponsible breeding going on - some owners (show and working) just do not seem to discriminate at all when it comes to allowing their dogs to be used and their only requirement seems to be payment of the stud fee >:(
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Surely we are straying from the original post which was. Working(type) cockers,do you think they adapt to 'pet' or 'work' life?. The answer has to be yes.Dogs don't know they are a worker or show type so the responsibility will be with the owner to make sure that dog has a happy life which, yes, if you want to work the dog in the traditional sense fair enough but it can also be happy with a life that doesn't involve that lifestyle.
There cant be many breeds of dog out there which weren't bred for a purpose. Think of terriers,pointers, GSD, dobermans, collies to name just few. The same argument can be made about these and other breeds.The fact is that many people take on a dog,any type of dog and don't appreciate the amount of time and effort involved in giving that dog a happy life.
So whilst appreciating the point of view of folk who are in a position to work their dogs in the traditional sense I wont feel guilty at all that Bonnie Boo has the life that she has.
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Surely we are straying from the original post which was. Working(type) cockers,do you think they adapt to 'pet' or 'work' life?. The answer has to be yes.Dogs don't know they are a worker or show type
Does it though? As has been stated already on the thread the number of working Cockers in rescues and being rehomed because their pet homes can't cope with them or meet their needs would suggest that the answer is that some might be able to adapt to the right pet home, because not all pet homes are the same, but not all would/do. Dogs may not know the definition of 'working' and 'show' type but my dogs are certainly very aware of their drive and instincts. If the owner wants and appreciates that and is prepared to work with it then great, but the fact is not all do and are.
Many if not most breeds were created for a purpose but some of those purposes and the traits they create fit better with the life of your average 'Joe Bloggs' pet than others. Of the more common other breeds/types that you listed there too - the terriers, GSDs and collies - they are among the most common breeds that end up in rescues, if not the most common in the case of collie and terrier types.
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Whilst I believe very firmly that the responsibility for any dog and owner lays between the breeder and the puppy buyer, at the end of the day it's the breeders that have more experience and if they were more ethical about what they were breeding and where it was going... then the scale of the problem would be a lot less.
If only it was true that the breeders always have more experience - of course some do but so many litters are the product of someone with a pet bitch deciding it would be nice to have a litter or two; they have no idea what they are doing or that they should vet future owners and as for taking back a pup if something goes wrong, that wouldn't even occur to them. I think someone has already mentioned about stud dog owners on this thread and they should definitely share a lot of the blame for some of the irresponsible breeding going on - some owners (show and working) just do not seem to discriminate at all when it comes to allowing their dogs to be used and their only requirement seems to be payment of the stud fee >:(
No I do appreciate that, and none of us really know the answer to the thoughtless pet breeder, BYB or puppy farm is as these debates go on and on and the problem gets worse and worse. I was talking more specifically about knowledgeable working cocker breeders to stay in line with this thread about working bred working cockers adapting to pet homes. The Working bred working cocker breeder is the 'start' of the life and potential problem for the pup/dog and if anything is to be done to improve the situation of high drive working pups ending up in unsuitable pet homes, then surely as well as educating potential puppy buyers, it's fundamentally down to the breeder rather than the blame of the optimistic but naive puppy buyer?
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Does it though? As has been stated already on the thread the number of working Cockers in rescues and being rehomed because their pet homes can't cope with them or meet their needs would suggest that the answer is that some might be able to adapt to the right pet home, because not all pet homes are the same, but not all would/do. Dogs may not know the definition of 'working' and 'show' type but my dogs are certainly very aware of their drive and instincts. If the owner wants and appreciates that and is prepared to work with it then great, but the fact is not all do and are.
Many if not most breeds were created for a purpose but some of those purposes and the traits they create fit better with the life of your average 'Joe Bloggs' pet than others. Of the more common other breeds/types that you listed there too - the terriers, GSDs and collies - they are among the most common breeds that end up in rescues, if not the most common in the case of collie and terrier types.
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I'm not for one minute disputing the fact that a lot of dogs of that type end up in rescues which is a disgrace.All I was saying was that given the right owner and the right environment a worker bred dog will adapt. Surely the answer is to educate people more and have much tighter controls on dog ownership. I realise that would only happen in cloud cuckoo land. If the powers that be cared one jot they would ban the indiscriminate breeding of dogs in puppy farms and the like
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What we are in danger of losing sight of here, is the huge distress of the owner who finally has to admit that they cannot meet the needs of the working type cocker with high drive, or equally, the upset to the dog itself when it cannot adapt to a more "normal" pet household routine and has to be rehomed.
It's all to easy to criticise these owners if you have never been in that position. Lucky you! if you have a working type cocker which has adapted to a pet existence. Most people have to work or sometimes circumstances change, they may not be in the fortunate position of being able to afford dog walkers and may have to work longer hours. It is certainly no disgrace to admit defeat!
I take my hat off to the owners (some of whom are on this forum and who are probably reading this thread!) for having the courage to admit they cannot fulfil the needs of their dog and sensibly rehoming the dog before it develops some behavioural problem through boredom/inactivity. It is far from an easy decision for the owners who have to surrender their dogs, and also extremely distressing, they have my thoughts.
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Surely we are straying from the original post which was. Working(type) cockers,do you think they adapt to 'pet' or 'work' life?. The answer has to be yes.Dogs don't know they are a worker or show type
Does it though? As has been stated already on the thread the number of working Cockers in rescues and being rehomed because their pet homes can't cope with them or meet their needs would suggest that the answer is that some might be able to adapt to the right pet home, because not all pet homes are the same, but not all would/do. Dogs may not know the definition of 'working' and 'show' type but my dogs are certainly very aware of their drive and instincts. If the owner wants and appreciates that and is prepared to work with it then great, but the fact is not all do and are.
I agree with you both here. I'm not suggesting that all rehomed workers have come from homes that haven't tried to adapt or have given up too easily but I guess, as you say, it depends on what we could agree was a pet home or a working one. To some a pet home is one that wants a dog that will be happy with a run around the garden and a walk on a Sunday. Others, it's a home where the dog goes everywhere, gets daily off lead walks and just doesn't have the opportunity to work in the formal sense. A working home could be one where the dog is kenneled and out every day of the season or one where the dog gets gundog training and the odd beating day.
I suppose we can say that dogs are adaptable creatures but it depends on to what level we are suggesting they adapt to.
We could have the same debate as to whether dogs will adapt to being neglected or dressed up in clothes. It's the extreme to which people expect their dogs, of whatever breed, to stray from what their natural instinct, size, physical compositions etc dictates
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I think it is worth bearing in mind that this forum is not representative of most dog owners ;). We are all here as we are pasionate about the breed, its traits and are here to share our knowledge and learn. The majority of 'pet homes' on COL are a pole apart from most. Looking at peoples training programmes, the activities they take part in with their dogs; these are not the dogs being left for 9-10 hours a day with no stimulation, with a walk at the weekend if its nice.
Are the average family going to be able to meet the needs of a working cocker? Probably not IMHO, but I believe if people can adapt their lifestyle to the working cocker then most (I understand there will always be exceptions) can have a sucessful pet lifestyle.
Having worked in rescue most people want a particular dog breed because of the way it looks :'(, little thought is given to its needs and breed traits. While we can try our best to educate people to the needs of a dog, it frequently falls on deaf ears.