working/show cockers

[Cazzie]

There has to be a difference   One is good at showing and the other is good at working (as a general rule) but both are classed under (is it gundogs)  

Of course there are differences but so what? It doesn't mean they can't be recognised and appreciated for their differences and still be acknowledged as Cocker Spaniels, the breed we all love. As with any other doggy issue, it's not really a change in the system we need but a change in attitude - we need puppy buyers to do lots more homework before deciding on a Cocker (whichever type) and we need a lot more responsibility from breeders so that their buyers understand what type of puppy they are buying in the first place. It all comes down to providing information and education in the end - doesn't it always?

Agree 100%. How many years have you been involved with cockers Jane, probably more than Ive had hot dinners. We stand to learn alot from you and others that have been around the breed for years. Which is a hige bonus in my eyes 

[Cazzie]

I think within the current breeding there are huge variations of working cocker in size and look so the breed standard would read like war and peace....

remember the breed standard is based on a conformity of look...so in a working cocker breed standard how do you analyse what's right and wrong considering that 'looks' haven't been at the top of the list for working capabilities and many parti/solid breedings have taken place, plus a fair few springers and other gundogs have been introduces throughout the years...

i.e long ears/short ears, 15 inches to the shoulder or 20 inches to the shoulder, 10 kgs or 18 kgs , long body or short 'square shape' and on and on and on and on.  Would mis-marking (like pirate markings) be permissable?  Would more white than currently breed standard be allowed on solid dogs (like white paws etc....?)


You could show Sweep if you wanted, nothing stopping you - if she doesn't meet the cocker spaniel breed standard then you wouldn't get very far  

Agree with this, deciding on what's 'right and wrong' as regards appearance for working cockers would be nigh on impossible. Take Tilly for example, she stands over 18 inches high at the shoulder and weighs over 18 kilos... there are probably at least a couple of other liver workers on here (so, similar dogs you may think) who could probably nearly walk underneath her and others who weigh literally half as much. Who's to say which is right and which is wrong and how do you decide? Different breeding lines have produced dogs very different in looks, build, drive etc. often based largely on the specific type of terrain they are working. If the breed was split and working cockers got their own breed standard and then people decided to then start showing working cockers with this new standard would you then get another split with some workers being bred to meet the standard for the show ring and other workers being bred purely to work.... it could go on and on.

Also, even if the KC did decide to split the two strains would most people still then really know the difference? Unless they changed the name you're still probably going to get a lot of people who'll still think that it's a 'cocker which works' as opposed to a 'working cocker'. A lot of, if not most, people don't go to dog shows etc. or keep up with developments in the KC breed list and to them a cocker will still just be a cocker.

A bit like the JRT then 

[anita96]

I am not for a moment suggesting that a split is necessary but its interesting to spectulate    If you can't decide how to judge the workers surely it would be done on working ability, therefore dogs would be judged in a trial.  Sorry just to add and from that the breed standard would conform to a point because if success in trailling was pocket rocket there would be more rockets. 

[Helen]

I am not for a moment suggesting that a split is necessary but its interesting to spectulate    If you can't decide how to judge the workers surely it would be done on working ability, therefore dogs would be judged in a trial.  Sorry just to add and from that the breed standard would conform to a point because if success in trailling was pocket rocket there would be more rockets. 

isn't that called 'Field trials'    and only a very small minority of dogs partake in that.....

and i would hate to lose the pocket rocket cockers so that's out for me and Jarv...(after all Jarv is small...but in that respect he meets cocker breed standard perfectly  )

[Cazzie]

I am not for a moment suggesting that a split is necessary but its interesting to spectulate    If you can't decide how to judge the workers surely it would be done on working ability, therefore dogs would be judged in a trial.  Sorry just to add and from that the breed standard would conform to a point because if success in trailling was pocket rocket there would be more rockets. 

isn't that called 'Field trials'    and only a very small minority of dogs partake in that.....

and i would hate to lose the pocket rocket cockers so that's out for me and Jarv...(after all Jarv is small...but in that respect he meets cocker breed standard perfectly  )

Is there a section on here with the breed standard 

[anita96]

You are quite right only a small amount of people to take part in it at the moment,  but I have just signed up from my grade 1 with the gundog club and am hoping to take the trialling world by storm with my larger than the norm brown cocker,      as if !  I don't think we will ever lose the pocket rocket cockers, they are to scummy for that.

[anita96]

Is there a section on here with the breed standard 

Watch out showing world here comes sweepie 

[Cazzie]

Is there a section on here with the breed standard 

Watch out showing world here comes sweepie 

Eh I dont think so  Been in the showing ring with her already 

[Nicola]

You are quite right only a small amount of people to take part in it at the moment,  but I have just signed up from my grade 1 with the gundog club and am hoping to take the trialling world by storm with my larger than the norm brown cocker,      as if !  I don't think we will ever lose the pocket rocket cockers, they are to scummy for that.

I hope you mean 'scrummy' rather than 'scummy' there 

Good luck with the grade 1, Alfie and Rodaidh did 1 and 2 before Christmas and it was definitely really good experience for them (and me!).

[anita96]

ooopppsss  sorry  thankyou Nicola I did mean scrummy 

I am looking forward to do my grades it will give me something more structured to aim for.

[Cazzie]

This is my friends what we are up against

Edited as the link doesnt work 

[winewood]

I have the opposite, in Australia there is only 3 or 4 working cocker's so I've been told, I was also totally unaware that the working cocker excised . I did all my research for nearly 12months, wanting to get a dog that I could use and have fun with doing what they were breed for and getting into field work was why I got her. Love my two dearly wouldn't swap either of them for the world. But, luckily I got Indi first, both are show cocker's but Indi from what I can see (after looking at all pics of workers) was not up to standard for show quality and is a throw back or what ever, to me is in between show and worker in looks and personality. She has all the drive, but has a thiner coat, longer head no dome but flatter,  like an everready bunny never stops.I have had comments that she has what it takes for field work from gundog people, who just stared at me when I got her out of the car at my first beginners day all labs, GSP, Viszlas basically I was laughed at as quite obviously I couldn't compete against them and have had very little help and no one has tried using a cocker here in field work , I was told 1970 something someone had a cocker. Where as Kody my boy, is a true show cocker would happily spend all day on my knee asleep with his legs in the air and running around going silly or flyball when the mood strikes him, but after a while is happy to sit and watch Indi running none stop after balls etc. If I had got him first I would have been quite disappointed and probably not got a second cocker, he loves to chase and sniff but if a fence is in his way he either cries while waiting for me to hold the fence up for him or just says "Oh well I find something else to do check out the cows or just sit and watch her" . I expected and was looking for a working dog I have now found the ESS club which does have there own spaniel trials one per year and no classes  or real help in training I was given a book which was about 30/40 years old, maybe if they were springers they'd be more helpful. But not to be deterred I'm still training for the Gundog Working Tests with her and she is going quite well considering my training with lack of knowledge only books, he is gong quite well in Obedience and does flyball, she also does agility. Obviously my research was all in the UK and the States and without realising not much happens here with spaniels, they are classed as small fluffy dogs with only a handfull of people using them in Agility/Flyball, Gundog working tests and me on my soap box shouting they are gun dogs, imagine the look on my face when someone after watching Indi jumping around and dancing about, came over to me and suggested with all her energy I should be doing dog dancing (freestyle)  not my gundog, me in my wellies and usually muddy  from trying to get her out of the dam,  not really, let me think a minute NO

[Helen]

I have the opposite, in Australia there is only 3 or 4 working cocker's so I've been told, I was also totally unaware that the working cocker excised . I did all my research for nearly 12months, wanting to get a dog that I could use and have fun with doing what they were breed for and getting into field work was why I got her. Love my two dearly wouldn't swap either of them for the world. But, luckily I got Indi first, both are show cocker's but Indi from what I can see (after looking at all pics of workers) was not up to standard for show quality and is a throw back or what ever, to me is in between show and worker in looks and personality. She has all the drive, but has a thiner coat, longer head no dome but flatter,  like an everready bunny never stops.I have had comments that she has what it takes for field work from gundog people, who just stared at me when I got her out of the car at my first beginners day all labs, GSP, Viszlas basically I was laughed at as quite obviously I couldn't compete against them and have had very little help and no one has tried using a cocker here in field work , I was told 1970 something someone had a cocker. Where as Kody my boy, is a true show cocker would happily spend all day on my knee asleep with his legs in the air and running around going silly or flyball when the mood strikes him, but after a while is happy to sit and watch Indi running none stop after balls etc. If I had got him first I would have been quite disappointed and probably not got a second cocker, he loves to chase and sniff but if a fence is in his way he either cries while waiting for me to hold the fence up for him or just says "Oh well I find something else to do check out the cows or just sit and watch her" . I expected and was looking for a working dog I have now found the ESS club which does have there own spaniel trials one per year and no classes  or real help in training I was given a book which was about 30/40 years old, maybe if they were springers they'd be more helpful. But not to be deterred I'm still training for the Gundog Working Tests with her and she is going quite well considering my training with lack of knowledge only books, he is gong quite well in Obedience and does flyball, she also does agility. Obviously my research was all in the UK and the States and without realising not much happens here with spaniels, they are classed as small fluffy dogs with only a handfull of people using them in Agility/Flyball, Gundog working tests and me on my soap box shouting they are gun dogs, imagine the look on my face when someone after watching Indi jumping around and dancing about, came over to me and suggested with all her energy I should be doing dog dancing (freestyle)  not my gundog, me in my wellies and usually muddy  from trying to get her out of the dam,  not really, let me think a minute NO

I know there are a fair few working cockers in New Zealand now Winewood (hopefully in a couple of years there may be at least 1 more if I can persuade OH  )

Good on you for perservering- hope the working cocker trim works 

[Helen]

There has to be a difference  One is good at showing and the other is good at working (as a general rule) but both are classed under (is it gundogs) 

I may add there is no difference to me as I find both stunning and infact think shows are pretty and workers are pretty but  rugged 

but how would you define a working cocker breed standard if you don't use conformity to a certain look?
working trials?  Basis of pedigree?  Field trials?

And as for show cockers merely being pretty, check out the cockers in Europe - they have to do working trials in order to show as well.  There are no reasons I can think of that a Show cocker can't be a good working dog.

how would you 'judge'  Rodaidh for example against Jarv (forgetting for a moment that Jarv doesn't have half a good a trainer as Rodaidh).  Both are lovely looking dogs, but they have very few similarities looks wise (ok, 2 ears 2 eyes 4 legs yes....but to look at  no...)

thing is the breed standard may not suit working cockers, but what logical alternative can you offer?

I couldnt as I know nothing about it and this thread is getting interesting, If I had to choose between Rodaidh and Jarv Id choose Rodaidh as I know him and I know what he is capable of, he isnt just handsome he is an all good rounder and ext obedient and completely focused on his owner which will make him one awsome dog when the day comes for him. Cant say more than that tbh. Im not an expert and cewrtainly dont claim to be one as cockers are a very new breed to me. 

it's not 'choosing' between Rodaidh and Jarv, it's looking at them purely from dispassionate pov as a judge would in a ring.  Personal knowledge aside.

If you had 2 of them in a class, Jarvis would probably take it, as he  looks more like a traditional cocker spaniel

Anita, my scummy pocket rocket (i.e traditionally sized spaniel) has not taken offence 

This brings up another huge variance in working cockers - some of us prefer the traditional compact spaniel, some are going for very large versions, there's no right or wrong.   Even though the breed was originally split for size, the larger spaniel was not as large as the working cockers you get today (wonder what gundog was bred in to get assurity of larger lines?  I know springer was a lot....)

[Cazzie]

Ah I see, I didnt know working cockers were shown