working/show cockers

[Coco]

I quite like the idea of two strains but (just my opinion though) I also think you should have some conformity in the workers too after all they are cocker spaniels,and as with the show, I think the height should confirm to the same standard and also temperament, you’d lose it on head shape, ear set and coat though and as with show kennels each tend to have a slightly different look and it’s lovely that people can recognise other lines from the look of the dog so the same would be for the working lines.
 

I'm not sure I understand because, I think you are saying there should be conformity but that it's nice to see the difference in kennels which would contradict itself wouldn't it. Or do you mean to have conformity but still have these differences? Surely then breeding would become even closer to achieve the conformity making the gene pool even smaller and the breeders distinctive attributes would be lost. Sorry if I'm over thinking this or misunderstanding. IMO I don't think that trying to achieve conformity would benefit Working cockers, or any working breed because the main thing is their working ability regardless of their looks.  Perhaps is they were all the same size it would even the competition in trials but for the few dogs that actually enter these I don't think it's worth restricting the breed as a whole. In my experience, difference in size can be great in the field,  Wherry for instance is small and struggles with large Pheasants on occasion but can get into the thickest undergrowth to go after a runner, a larger dog would be the opposite so both would compliment each other in the field. Temperament would also not necessarily benefit from being standardised (and I'm not sure if it'd be achievable) so long as they are not aggressive etc as it gives dogs individual styles.
I do agree that two individual strains would be a good idea.  It would help both breeders and owners.
(Though that makes me wonder where half working half show would end up, would they suddenly become a cross breed       )

I certainly consider my two to be cocker spaniels, and so are working cockers imo, they just have a different set of skills (and are a lot quieter) 

Very good point Rachel, they are all from the original gun dog breed.
I wonder where the term 'Working cocker' originated?!?

I knew a show Cocker that came out shooting, she was great but it was snowing and in a short time she became one big snow ball, her ears, toes and under her body became one big mass bless her
Interestingly, in that sense, it's clear why Working cockers have been bread to have the coats they do and just how the differences work.  (Obviously they can be trimmed, and it's not all about snow but hopefully you see my point  )
I'm not suggesting 'show' shouldn't work at all, as I said she was great, it's just interesting to see, in action, the reasons for these differences.

(Mollycuddles, sorry to respond then not reply if I don't but I'm off on hol tomorrow so please don't think I'm purposely being rude)

[Cazzie]

So are workers the way they are now (different in some ways) than shows because they have been crossed with different breeds  ie the springer 

[Helen]

So are workers the way they are now (different in some ways) than shows because they have been crossed with different breeds  ie the springer 

some lines have used the springer, other gundogs as well throughout the years (pointers and setters have crossed with springers to 'improve' the strain etc)...but that is really how any breed evolves.

I was speaking to an old lady about labs a few months ago - she was really quite angry about how the breed went in the 60's claiming that other dog types were introduced into the breed mainly to improve health....how true that is I don't know but it doesn't surprise me.

and further back - found this link on choc labs - interesting that KC records have 'disappeared' 

http://www.labradornet.com/chochistory.html

[Cazzie]

So are workers the way they are now (different in some ways) than shows because they have been crossed with different breeds  ie the springer 

some lines have used the springer, other gundogs as well throughout the years (pointers and setters have crossed with springers to 'improve' the strain etc)...but that is really how any breed evolves.

I was speaking to an old lady about labs a few months ago - she was really quite angry about how the breed went in the 60's claiming that other dog types were introduced into the breed mainly to improve health....how true that is I don't know but it doesn't surprise me.

and further back - found this link on choc labs - interesting that KC records have 'disappeared' 

http://www.labradornet.com/chochistory.html

Thanks for that, iveofter thought Wills Lab was the double of a chessy 

[supaspaniel]

And just to realy confuse things I work Baggins and he's a show cocker

There are a few people on here who work show type cockers, Katina is one who springs to mind,

George Linus and Harmy used to 'work' by dogging in for Matt........maybe not on the shooting field tho, but work all the same and I do think that Aidee would be more than capable of working as a picker upper if trained correctly of course..but they are from 'show' strain....they wouldn't get anywhere in a show ring tho

[winewood]

  I have to be careful what commands I use for instand I use the command 'reverse' for walking backwards because the last thing I need if I am out on a shoot and shout 'back' and he walks backwards for the retrieve 
[/quote]

Sorry this made me laugh I have enough trouble at agility being unco-ordinated but do admitt I quite like watching the dog dancing, its just I've been on my soap box about being gun dogs.  Indi can walk the full length of my kitchen on her back legs and spin, and if you add in the flyball bow, and the roll overs, and weaving between my legs she probably could do it well, shame about the owner.

[johndoran]

We definitely wanted a working type and only looked at litters that said as much. Bonnie boo is absolutely gorgeous and fiesty and naughty and so loving and i don't know what id do without her.A lot of people on our walks don't realise there is such a dog as a working cocker but she has a pedigree as long as your arm.apparently there are also working and show springer spaniels but i may be corrected on that one.

[Billybang]

You are quite correct there are Show and Working Springers, as with the Show and Working Cockers they look very different. 

[JasperPop]

I have only just read this post..I haven't been on in ages and ages as I was ignoring OH too much

I have a worker and a show.  Jagger (worker) was the first and I have to be honest I had no idea there was a difference!  My Dad has a Weimeraner from working stock and she is the same as any other Wiemeraner so I thought that the same would apply, but that he would just not be up for the show ring.  My ignorance has now been rectified thanks to COL   .  We adopted Molly (show) a few months after having brought Jagger home as she was in need of a forever home.  There is only a couple of months difference between the two dogs but there is not a huge difference in their behaviour...Jagger is def quiter most of the time and he is faster too.  He is the more excitable of the two, but more often than not (when he has calmed down lol) he is the better behaved. 

After reading on here about Working Cockers (some people said that they should not be pets etc) I was soooo worried about what would happen as he matured and just how hyper he would become, I am please (and relieved) to say that it has all worked out ok.  Jagger is 10 months old and Molly nearly 12 months so they have a lot of growing up and calming down to do and I am certain that things will work out well.  I am just not sure whether this is a happy accident or just that I wasnt really expecting a lap dog anyway when I chose a cocker spaniel?

[anita96]

My Dad has a Weimeraner from working stock and she is the same as any other Wiemeraner so I thought that the same would apply, but that he would just not be up for the show ring. 

Therefore why then are cocker strains so very different, when in some breeds the standards is the same for show and working, its the same for labs the show labs are very different to working labs, some of the labs I saw on crufts looked like they couldn't waddle up stairs let alone jump a 5 bar gate 

[Cazzie]

My Dad has a Weimeraner from working stock and she is the same as any other Wiemeraner so I thought that the same would apply, but that he would just not be up for the show ring. 

Therefore why then are cocker strains so very different, when in some breeds the standards is the same for show and working, its the same for labs the show labs are very different to working labs, some of the labs I saw on crufts looked like they couldn't waddle up stairs let alone jump a 5 bar gate 

This is quite an interesting read, Ive read loads on show/working Labs since I got Otter as he is half show and have considered doing both with him if he proves to have the potential

http://www.dog-training-talk.com/field-vs-show-what-s-the-difference-pa1-150.html

[Helen]

My Dad has a Weimeraner from working stock and she is the same as any other Wiemeraner so I thought that the same would apply, but that he would just not be up for the show ring. 

Therefore why then are cocker strains so very different, when in some breeds the standards is the same for show and working, its the same for labs the show labs are very different to working labs, some of the labs I saw on crufts looked like they couldn't waddle up stairs let alone jump a 5 bar gate 

because other breeds were introduced like springer/setter/pointer along the way.  The variation in face and ear shape/size often gives away something in their history too...

I don't like the show lab 'shape' - I prefer the working shape, but I love the look of a show cocker in the ring - they always look fit and active and just plain gorgeous 

[Jane S]

My Dad has a Weimeraner from working stock and she is the same as any other Wiemeraner so I thought that the same would apply, but that he would just not be up for the show ring. 

Therefore why then are cocker strains so very different, when in some breeds the standards is the same for show and working, its the same for labs the show labs are very different to working labs, some of the labs I saw on crufts looked like they couldn't waddle up stairs let alone jump a 5 bar gate 

Those gundog breeds that have not (yet) developed into distinct strains tend to be the less numerically popular breeds - compare and contrast the number of Weimaraners registered in the UK last year (2,724) with the number of Cocker registrations (20,883) and Labrador registrations (45,079). Popularity means that a breed appeals to a lot of people who may have different reasons for wanting that breed which often leads to different types within a breed being developed. Incidentally, the Breed Standards for all gundog breeds apply to both show and working strains within that breed - the Cocker Spaniel Standard remains much the same (apart from a few minor amendments) as the one laid down when the breed was first being established (long before any split between show and working strain).

[anita96]

Those gundog breeds that have not (yet) developed into distinct strains tend to be the less numerically popular breeds - compare and contrast the number of Weimaraners registered in the UK last year (2,724) with the number of Cocker registrations (20,883) and Labrador registrations (45,079). Popularity means that a breed appeals to a lot of people who may have different reasons for wanting that breed which often leads to different types within a breed being developed. Incidentally, the Breed Standards for all gundog breeds apply to both show and working strains within that breed - the Cocker Spaniel Standard remains much the same (apart from a few minor amendments) as the one laid down when the breed was first being established (long before any split between show and working strain).

That absolutely makes sense Jane.  I suppose there are alot less people just having a go at breeding their pet bitch due to the smaller numbers.

I was always under the impression that the introduction of the other breeds was done one the sly shall we say, some say the springers where introduced to create a better trialling dog and therefore a move away from the traditional working cocker which was smaller and therefore a lot more like the show size. 

 

[Luvly]