Working cockers, do you think they adapt to 'pet' or 'work' life?

[Woodstock]

I don't know what a "normal" home is really.  Woodstock is farm bred working cocker but both his mother and grandmother were farmhouse pets and not worked as gundogs.  As far as I know none of his litter went for gundog training either.  But they were all sold to local, country people who were well known to the family. 

Woods now has about an hour every morning of walk/run/swim more off lead than on through farmland and along the canal and lanes.  He then more often than not has a quick blast across the fields again in the evening for about 25-30mins.  Now this may be far too much commitment to "normal" homes I don't know. 

I do know that we absolutely enjoys life to the max every day and I would think that a 10 min lead walk on pavements twice a day would probably drive him insane with boredom so if that's part of "normal" then may be workers shouldn't be there. 

Bx

[burnysbird]

An interesting thread this one. TBH I didn't realise how different working cockers can be to the show kind. Our previous dog was a show cocker and Sizzles seems like a nutter compared to him! Sizzles' parents were both worked, she was brought up outside on a farm. I  seeing her out darting into bushes, flushing the birds out and leaping around with a grin on her face.

We have a young family but take it in turns (husband and I) to walk her morning and night for at least 30 mins a time. Husband works from home so she is not alone during the day and the kids love playing with her when they get home from school. I hope that we are doing enough with her as I'd hate to think she wasn't being stimulated enough. We go to puppy classes every week at the moment, play lots of hiding games and fetching. She impressed everyone at classes with her brilliant training too 

I think she is going to make a great pet and we are well aware that she is going to need a LOT of mental stimulation - just got to keep it up!

Katie

[Pip895]

I am absolutly against pet workers being bred and the breed being diluted down so they are easier to handle in a pet home. Nothing will ever convince me it is for the good of the breed its for the good of the people who want them and it is completly selfish and damaging to the dogs.

Although I agree with other points you have made I disagree with this – it is not damaging to dogs or selfish to breed dogs that fit the purpose/home that they will end up in.  What IS selfish and damaging is breading dogs that will not fit in/be suitable for the home they are destined for.  This is the case when commercial breeders/puppy farmers  bread indiscriminately (eg just for colour ignoring temperament) or when for instance a gamekeeper wanting another pup to train offloads excess often highly strung/unstable pups on unsuspecting pet owners or inexperienced working owners.

I really don’t see that the presence of third or fourth generation pet dogs would in anyway detract from knowledgeable/professional  hunters/trainers who will continue to purchase dogs of favoured lines/known hunting ability. 

I personally don’t like the idea that anyone should bread hunting dogs that can’t adapt to life in an active pet home.  After all, even if a breeder  only sells to working homes, as I know some do, then  some of those dogs are almost certainly going to end up in pet homes for one reason or another. 

[Crazy Cocker Gang]

There are 100s of breeds of dogs and 10s of thousands being bred each year so yes to change a strain and breed more dogs so people can have a pet is completely selfish. It is being done to meet peoples needs not the dogs needs.

It is adding to an already huge dog population for no good reason.

What are we going to end up with show cockers with a shorter coat, pet workers and working workers. Who exactly is that good for?

And I suppose rescues will be the ones picking up the pieces while this new strain is being evolved.

Why is there a need for it?

One last thing I have a cocker that couldn't adapt to a pet home, she is exactly what a worker should be and if people can't handle that type of worker they should look at a different breed rather than changing it.

[Hurtwood Dogs]

I didn't really want to get involved with this thread but, I do have to add at this point that all the breeds that are around today were bred and designed for 'selfish' human requirements, including the Working Cocker... we've mutated a wild animal over 1000's of years to provide us with dogs that excel at and do different things for US and along the way, there have been millions of 'not quite fit for purpose' casualties.

The mutations (or different breeds) we have today, with time will also change to meet 'our' needs and requirements. I'm sure shoots will always be around and I don't know how common place they are today compared with 100 years ago but today, largely and more than ever before, the dog is a pet/companion. All manner of breeders including those with the working cockers best interests at heart are producing more dogs than I suspect are needed for just working owners and as we all know, not all puppies from litters of that type of stock are fit to work but some still carry the traits that make them difficult to manage, so where do these excess dogs go? They have to go to pet homes or be destroyed and if they have to go to pet homes then surely they also have to be suitable for that and ultimately trying to breed a level of 'pet home suitability' into workers could actually help the breed long term? If not then there will always always be a problem for these dogs and a lot of casualties... surely that is more selfish?

I have an unsuitable pet dog that causes me no end of grief at times, but I love her dearly and I do my best to stimulate her and provide her with a good life. She isn't suitable for working because she ended up in a loving but naive home and didn't get the right start in life for her breed because her breeder bred too many pups for for the shooting market to take so she went to a well intentioned pet home and it didn't work and they couldn't hack it. I don't know if Normy would have made a good working dog, she has the skills but she's an emotional mess and overly sensitive and who knows if this is a result of her start in life or if she would never have been a good working dog anyway. Her breeder is also what we on this site would largely consider 'responsible' in that she helps rehome her pups for their lifetime, her breeding stock is health tested, fed raw diets, they get to work, the prospective puppy owners are vetted etc etc.. but there aren't enough homes for these working dogs as 'working dogs' and therefore, people like me and you end up trying to offer these not quite up to it dogs what we can - but it's not ideal and I'm not normal and doing it costs me and my family in other ways.

Surely the way forward, is to concentrate on a 'super dog' that can adapt to other things if needed - does that have to mean diluting the true nature of the breed or is it actually kinder to design something for the world as it is today?

[Pip895]

There are 100s of breeds of dogs and 10s of thousands being bred each year so yes to change a strain and breed more dogs so people can have a pet is completely selfish. It is being done to meet peoples needs not the dogs needs.

All dogs are being bread to meet peoples needs - arnt they ??  :lol2:

Anyway there might be 100s of breeds of dog but there is only one working cocker  - and many if not most, adapt great to an active pet home. 

And I suppose rescues will be the ones picking up the pieces while this new strain is being evolved.

Who is talking about a new strain??  - dogs breed with care - for a sound temprement, are less likely to end up in rescue. It is breading from dogs that have such a high drive/unstable temprement, that they cant adapt to family life, that ends up with dogs in rescue.

[Pip895]

I didn't really want to get involved with this thread but, I do have to add at this point that all the breeds that are around today were bred and designed for 'selfish' human requirements, including the Working Cocker... we've mutated a wild animal over 1000's of years to provide us with dogs that excel at and do different things for US and along the way, there have been millions of 'not quite fit for purpose' casualties.

The mutations (or different breeds) we have today, with time will also change to meet 'our' needs and requirements. I'm sure shoots will always be around and I don't know how common place they are today compared with 100 years ago but today, largely and more than ever before, the dog is a pet/companion. All manner of breeders including those with the working cockers best interests at heart are producing more dogs than I suspect are needed for just working owners and as we all know, not all puppies from litters of that type of stock are fit to work but some still carry the traits that make them difficult to manage, so where do these excess dogs go? They have to go to pet homes or be destroyed and if they have to go to pet homes then surely they also have to be suitable for that and ultimately trying to breed a level of 'pet home suitability' into workers could actually help the breed long term? If not then there will always always be a problem for these dogs and a lot of casualties... surely that is more selfish?

I have an unsuitable pet dog that causes me no end of grief at times, but I love her dearly and I do my best to stimulate her and provide her with a good life. She isn't suitable for working because she ended up in a loving but naive home and didn't get the right start in life for her breed because her breeder bred too many pups for for the shooting market to take so she went to a well intentioned pet home and it didn't work and they couldn't hack it. I don't know if Normy would have made a good working dog, she has the skills but she's an emotional mess and overly sensitive and who knows if this is a result of her start in life or if she would never have been a good working dog anyway. Her breeder is also what we on this site would largely consider 'responsible' in that she helps rehome her pups for their lifetime, her breeding stock is health tested, fed raw diets, they get to work, the prospective puppy owners are vetted etc etc.. but there aren't enough homes for these working dogs as 'working dogs' and therefore, people like me and you end up trying to offer these not quite up to it dogs what we can - but it's not ideal and I'm not normal and doing it costs me and my family in other ways.

Surely the way forward, is to concentrate on a 'super dog' that can adapt to other things if needed - does that have to mean diluting the true nature of the breed or is it actually kinder to design something for the world as it is today?

Couldn’t agree more!

[Crazy Cocker Gang]

There are 100s of breeds of dogs and 10s of thousands being bred each year so yes to change a strain and breed more dogs so people can have a pet is completely selfish. It is being done to meet peoples needs not the dogs needs.

All dogs are being bread to meet peoples needs - arnt they ??  :lol2:

Anyway there might be 100s of breeds of dog but there is only one working cocker  - and many if not most, adapt great to an active pet home. 

And I suppose rescues will be the ones picking up the pieces while this new strain is being evolved.

Who is talking about a new strain??  - dogs breed with care - for a sound temprement, are less likely to end up in rescue. It is breading from dogs that have such a high drive/unstable temprement, that they cant adapt to family life, that ends up with dogs in rescue.

A high drive dog generally only has a unstable temperment if its need haven't been met and humans have messed it up.

Yes dogs were of course bred and adapted to meet our needs but I don't see why we feel the need to change them again when there is no benefit to the dog.

If less dogs were bred and people choose the dog to meet there needs there wouldn't be the problems there are.

As I  said before workers were not in puppy farms and rescues before the breed became popular in the main stream.

Im bowing out now because I'm never going to believe workers should be changed to meet demand.

[Hurtwood Dogs]

For the record, I'm certainly not suggesting they should be changed to meet demand - more to cope in the world in which most of them are ending up in. I don't think anyone on this site, including me agrees with the number of dogs being bred - but because there is a market for 'top level' workers and prize winning show dogs... by default, breeding those dogs has become a numbers game hasn't it and that means too many dogs being bred at all levels.

I also don't think 'Changing them again' is what we're talking about. Breeds are constantly evolving, as are all natural and controlled bred species and change in some way or another is inevitable - in another 100 years, the world will be a very different place and all life will have to adapt to that.

I don't like hearing stories of Working type dogs being rehomed anymore than anyone else on this site but I think that there is also a harsh reality that if you want a very specific type of dog, that in itself will ultimately also contribute to the numbers problem and suitable home problem in conjunction with puppy farms and fashionable pets...

[Pip895]

Agree with Hannah all the way – no one wants to change working cockers into some sort of watered down version of a show cocker.
 
The attributes that make them good workers also make them great pets in SOME types of pet home. 
The dogs that end up in rescue are often failed workers – some of them fail not because they are low drive but because they are too high drive to be trained by the working owners that take them on.  Dumping these dogs onto the pet market is unforgivable.

With regard to there being too many dogs – whilst I don’t disagree, I believe not breading from pet workers is only going to make the problem worse.  The law of supply and demand dictates that if dogs aren’t available from caring pet homes, then pups will be bread by either unscrupulous working kennels or puppy farms.

[Top Barks]

Jo, as you know, even  certain people (you know who I mean) who claim to share your oppinion seem to conveniently forget what they preach for the sake of a few quid when studding their dog.
I see the results all the time.
Breeds evolve over time whether that be to the credit or detriment of the breed, I don't see how that will ever change.
I see your point about it being selfish but I'm afraid there are some selfish folks out there.

[Jane S]

I don't think anyone on this site, including me agrees with the number of dogs being bred - but because there is a market for 'top level' workers and prize winning show dogs... by default, breeding those dogs has become a numbers game hasn't it and that means too many dogs being bred at all levels.

Mmm don't really agree with that. The huge number of puppies being bred today has very little to do with producing either "top level" workers or prize winning show dogs and everything to do with profit. Only a small number of breeders (relatively speaking) are dedicated to their particular discipline (whether working or showing) - most breed because they think they can make a few quid (and of course the bigger producers do) or they think it's a good idea to have a litter because their pet is so nice and is bound to have equally nice puppies (regardless of where those puppies ultimately end up).

Those of us who breed show-type dogs and actually show have already seen what happens when pet breeders breed purely for the pet market - another type of Cocker has already evolved loosely described as show-type but they are far removed from dogs that are actually shown often being poorly constructed and lacking in breed type. It's one of my pet hates when pet breeders who have never set foot in the show ring and make no effort to breed to the breed standard describe themselves as "show breeders" or "show kennels" on their websites but that's by the by I guess the same thing will happen and is already happening with working strain dogs so can certainly understand why people feel the way they do on this thread - I just don't think there is a way to stop it when breeding dogs is pretty much a free for all in the country.

[minimoo]

At the end of the day isnt it the people who had the much rarer working type who worked them and then who bred them and then sold them to people who again bred them and now they are more common on certain selling sites than show type cockers when bruno was a pup 10 years ago hardly anyone had heard of workers,and you could trace them back to certain lineage,  surely if the breeders had been more selective about who they sold to eg only other hunting / working homes and took any pups back, that didnt make the grade this situation wouldnt be as bad as it is, but realistically they wouldnt want them back , would they, 

[Sarah1985]

At the end of the day isnt it the people who had the much rarer working type who worked them and then who bred them and then sold them to people who again bred them and now they are more common on certain selling sites than show type cockers when bruno was a pup 10 years ago hardly anyone had heard of workers,and you could trace them back to certain lineage,  surely if the breeders had been more selective about who they sold to eg only other hunting / working homes and took any pups back, that didnt make the grade this situation wouldnt be as bad as it is, but realistically they wouldnt want them back , would they, 

There will always be rejected workers. Not good enough to make the grade who will have to go to pet homes though.  My little girl was from a working farm, with working parents whoses siblings all went to various working homes. However she was considered too small and was sold to me as a pet

My two completely suit my lifestlye. I picked them for that reason and I dont think its fair to suggest that I shouldnt be allowed to own the dogs that are so completely what I want in a dog. Because of people like me I was able to give a home to a pup that the breeder felt would never be suitable to excel in a working life.

 However I would never breed from them as I know they will have very little appeal to the working market and I agree that lots of pet homes would struggle with such a dog. I also would never purchase a working dog from a pet home (again as my first dog was second generation pet) as like many I dont completely agree with breeding a working dog that for one reason or another isnt being worked

[minimoo]

Sarah1985 i am certainly not saying people should or shouldnt be allowed to own a certain type of dog, and neither did i suggest it in my post , i have one show type who i had at 2yrs from a breeder, one working type who came from a puppy farm and a cocker who has show and working type in her and has quite a few FTCH  in her pedigree, she was also 2 ish when i had her, mine are all pets ,  they get alot of exercise , i am saying that the breeders of what was quite a rare dog out of the working dog world, holds some responsability for  the way they have now ended up in so many pet homes regardless of type of dog