Working cockers, do you think they adapt to 'pet' or 'work' life?

[Hurtwood Dogs]

I don't think anyone on this site, including me agrees with the number of dogs being bred - but because there is a market for 'top level' workers and prize winning show dogs... by default, breeding those dogs has become a numbers game hasn't it and that means too many dogs being bred at all levels.

Mmm don't really agree with that. The huge number of puppies being bred today has very little to do with producing either "top level" workers or prize winning show dogs and everything to do with profit. Only a small number of breeders (relatively speaking) are dedicated to their particular discipline (whether working or showing) - most breed because they think they can make a few quid (and of course the bigger producers do) or they think it's a good idea to have a litter because their pet is so nice and is bound to have equally nice puppies (regardless of where those puppies ultimately end up).

Those of us who breed show-type dogs and actually show have already seen what happens when pet breeders breed purely for the pet market - another type of Cocker has already evolved loosely described as show-type but they are far removed from dogs that are actually shown often being poorly constructed and lacking in breed type. It's one of my pet hates when pet breeders who have never set foot in the show ring and make no effort to breed to the breed standard describe themselves as "show breeders" or "show kennels" on their websites but that's by the by I guess the same thing will happen and is already happening with working strain dogs so can certainly understand why people feel the way they do on this thread - I just don't think there is a way to stop it when breeding dogs is pretty much a free for all in the country.

Sorry Jane, I was a bit tired when I wrote that and didn't make my point very well. Comparing show and working types in the same way within what I said isn't so relevent as obviously show types do fit into most pet homes well if they don't make the grade for showing. My point was that to get any number of top level dogs, more dogs than are needed have to be bred because within a litter not all the pups will have that full potential, so there will be surplus dogs not suitable for competing or working homes and those pups will end up in pet homes still carrying the traits that might make them very difficult to manage.. even if they were originally bred with the best interests of improving the breed traits.

I just feel that it's wrong to discriminate against pet homes that are trying to give these surplus dogs a reasonable and full life as all types of breeders, however well intentioned, will be producing working dogs that end up needing a lot of help in some of these just pet homes.

There are separate issues with mass market production of these breeds I totally agree, but I think it's important to stand back and see the bigger picture which also includes well intentioned breeders of high maintenance working type dogs.

[johndoran]

Just a little point from someone who wouldn't profess to know a lot about working or show type. I,like a lot of members didn't realise there were two strains of cocker spaniel and certainly don't understand the,what seems to me to be a major divide. Now Bonnie Boo comes from a line of working cockers but I am sure that on a daily basis I exercise and stimulate her and that she is a happy dog. My little point is and correct me if I am wrong. The shooting season only lasts for a few months out of the year, and yes i know there are working trials. I cant however, believe that even the committed working cocker owner on a daily basis puts their dog through what they would experience on a shoot/trial. So if I am right about this then for the many many days out of the year what does the owner/worker do with their dogs.

[Black Red + Yellow]

Just a little point from someone who wouldn't profess to know a lot about working or show type. I,like a lot of members didn't realise there were two strains of cocker spaniel and certainly don't understand the,what seems to me to be a major divide. Now Bonnie Boo comes from a line of working cockers but I am sure that on a daily basis I exercise and stimulate her and that she is a happy dog. My little point is and correct me if I am wrong. The shooting season only lasts for a few months out of the year, and yes i know there are working trials. I cant however, believe that even the committed working cocker owner on a daily basis puts their dog through what they would experience on a shoot/trial. So if I am right about this then for the many many days out of the year what does the owner/worker do with their dogs.

Good point......no I certainly don't work them the same every day...they need to be rested in between - a shoot can last from anything up to 8 hours depending on the clock change bringing about darkness - certainly the day after a shoot, the boys need a 'chill down'.  For us, we may clear distinctions -  2 types of 'walks' we do with them.....1) the local park with tennis balls and balls on strings and all their local doggy friends = this is just play and socialising - in essence, just being one of the other non-working dogs and then 2) wooded areas to train - retrieving dummies, hunting in cover, practicing everything that possibly might occur on a shoot where possible.  In addition to this, training days with our trainer to work through any things that need strengthening upon.

Our life is varied - the only thing the dogs can be certain of is a walk somewhere - keeps them on their toes but allows them to have a break too

[Nicola]

Who is talking about a new strain??  - dogs breed with care - for a sound temprement, are less likely to end up in rescue. It is breading from dogs that have such a high drive/unstable temprement, that they cant adapt to family life, that ends up with dogs in rescue.

A high drive dog generally only has a unstable temperment if its need haven't been met and humans have messed it up.

Quite. Caoimhe has an incredibly high drive but she is of perfectly sound temperament because she is constantly having her needs met. Why should I or anyone expect her to change or to adapt to a purely pet home, she's a fabulous example of true breed type. It's all about what the people want and not what's best for the dogs.

Agree with Hannah all the way – no one wants to change working cockers into some sort of watered down version of a show cocker.
  
The attributes that make them good workers also make them great pets in SOME types of pet home.  
The dogs that end up in rescue are often failed workers – some of them fail not because they are low drive but because they are too high drive to be trained by the working owners that take them on.  Dumping these dogs onto the pet market is unforgivable.

With regard to there being too many dogs – whilst I don’t disagree, I believe not breading from pet workers is only going to make the problem worse.  The law of supply and demand dictates that if dogs aren’t available from caring pet homes, then pups will be bread by either unscrupulous working kennels or puppy farms.

Proportionately very few working Cockers that are in rescue or rehomed are 'failed workers', the vast majority come from unsuitable pet homes. I'm sure if you contact a rescue like NESSR or Spaniels in Need they'll verify that for you. And breeding from pet workers for the pet market is going to do exactly what you say you don't want to happen in the first sentence - it's going to create a watered-down version which is pretty far removed from how the dogs should be so there are effectively going to be two strains of working Cockers - proper true to type working dogs who are fit for purpose and the diluted 'pet' version.

Those of us who breed show-type dogs and actually show have already seen what happens when pet breeders breed purely for the pet market - another type of Cocker has already evolved loosely described as show-type but they are far removed from dogs that are actually shown often being poorly constructed and lacking in breed type. It's one of my pet hates when pet breeders who have never set foot in the show ring and make no effort to breed to the breed standard describe themselves as "show breeders" or "show kennels" on their websites but that's by the by I guess the same thing will happen and is already happening with working strain dogs so can certainly understand why people feel the way they do on this thread - I just don't think there is a way to stop it when breeding dogs is pretty much a free for all in the country.

It's exactly the same with working dogs with the split as I described above. There are far, far too many dogs being bred overall, pet dogs and working dogs. The vast majority is pet breeding, breeding for profit and breeding just for the sake of it - often the result of the unfortunately still-prevailing attitude amongst a lot of working/shooting people that if you have a dog you'll offer it for stud and if you have a bitch you'll take a few litters from her, it's just the 'done thing' and they're often not too fussy about where the pups go. I blame the irresponsible/casual breeders every bit as much if not more than the people who do too little research or who are unrealistic about the type of dog that they can offer the most appropriate lifestyle to.

I cant however, believe that even the committed working cocker owner on a daily basis puts their dog through what they would experience on a shoot/trial. So if I am right about this then for the many many days out of the year what does the owner/worker do with their dogs.

You can shoot rabbits etc. all year and Rodaidh has also been dogging in pheasants on the estate for the last few months. In the 'off' season the dogs can train, do scurries and working tests etc. I work on any issues that may have cropped up in the previous season and prepare for the coming one, we practice everything and learn new stuff. Of course I don't spend 7 or 8 hours a day 365 days a year letting them flush and retrieve pheasants, it's not possible and they need time off, but it's not the case that they only get to work or practise what they do for a couple of months out of the year.

For a trialling dog in particular the training is intensive and continual, Caoimhe's first competition is in a couple of weeks and she's been in training since last year with it having been particularly intensive for the last few months, she has training 6 days a week and has been going on 1 or 2 simulated shoot/trial days every week - she's had dozens of head of rabbit, pheasant and partridge shot to her before she even gets a sniff of a trial.

[fifer]

I couldn't agree more.  Sadly all the working cockers I've had through my hands have come from pet homes.  Not one (and all were/are pedigree workers) has come in as a "failed gundog".

Dilution occurs when you are breeding for the wrong reasons, in the case of the working cocker breeding for a pet home market ie quieter less "drive", or in the case which Jane puts of the show cocker being bred with scant regards for the "breed standard".  Both types are without a shadow of a doubt being overbred purely for money, or some strange attitude that all dogs must be used at stud to be real dogs and all bitches must have a litter - that attitude is as outdated as the '60s should be confined to the dustbin where it belongs.  

The sad truth is that many, many cockers of both types are being destroyed each year because we aren't meeting their needs.  It's time to stop breeding for selfish reasons and consider the future of each and every pup produced.  The law must change if people's attitudes don't, and I don't think that's too far away.  

[milly]

I cant however, believe that even the committed working cocker owner on a daily basis puts their dog through what they would experience on a shoot/trial. So if I am right about this then for the many many days out of the year what does the owner/worker do with their dogs.

We train for the season and working tests. We attend a gundog group anywhere from 1 to 3 times a week. We do basic obedience, advanced work and retrieving, spaniel class, practice hunting, retrieving skills, steadyness, working with other dogs, dummy launchers and water work. We go dogging in, have working tests and fun days.

[Pip895]

 

Proportionately very few working Cockers that are in rescue or rehomed are failed workers, the vast majority come from unsuitable pet homes. I'm sure if you contact a rescue like NESSR or Spaniels in Need they'll verify that for you.

Could it not be – correct me if I’m wrong, that it will very much depend on your definition of failed workers.  If you include dogs from a working kennels that are sold on to pet homes because they are surplus to requirements/unsuitable and or perhaps as a money earner on the side, then I think many would probably be considered failed workers. 
 

Caoimhe has an incredibly high drive but she is of perfectly sound temperament because she is constantly having her needs met. Why should I or anyone expect her to change or to adapt to a purely pet home, she's a fabulous example of true breed type. It's all about what the people want and not what's best for the dogs.

Many good steady workers (and perhaps even some champion dogs?) do not share Caoimhe’s incredibly high drive and unsuitability as a pet.  Is it not fairer on the dogs to bread in greater adaptability – after all ,who knows what the future will bring – Shooting could even go the way of fox hunting eventually.  [There is after all a sizable minority already in favour of a ban on all blood sports]. 

Just because a dog isn’t worked it doesn’t mean that it is unsuitable for working.  Saffi is a pet but her father, grandparents and some of her siblings are worked – she could have been worked but isn’t.  In addition many dogs that are worked are also family pets – many workers need to be able to cope with family life. 
The subset of “Pet” homes that suit working cockers actually want many of the same attributes as working homes anyway.  Inelegance, stamina and enthusiasm, the more practical coat and ears and lower tendency to bark are just, nice to have, added bonuses.   I see no drive to produce dogs that would not be able to work -only to produce dogs capable of adapting to family life. 

[Nicola]

Proportionately very few working Cockers that are in rescue or rehomed are failed workers, the vast majority come from unsuitable pet homes. I'm sure if you contact a rescue like NESSR or Spaniels in Need they'll verify that for you.

Could it not be – correct me if I’m wrong, that it will very much depend on your definition of failed workers.  If you include dogs from a working kennels that are sold on to pet homes because they are surplus to requirements/unsuitable and or perhaps as a money earner on the side, then I think many would probably be considered failed workers. 

A dog can't be a 'failed worker' if it has never been trained or used for working - these dogs are coming from unsuitable pet homes. Be it the fault of the breeder, the buyer or both that they ended up there in the first place. Imo both have a responsibility that is sadly often not taken into consideration, to the detriment of the dogs.

Caoimhe has an incredibly high drive but she is of perfectly sound temperament because she is constantly having her needs met. Why should I or anyone expect her to change or to adapt to a purely pet home, she's a fabulous example of true breed type. It's all about what the people want and not what's best for the dogs.

Many good steady workers (and perhaps even some champion dogs?) do not share Caoimhe’s incredibly high drive and unsuitability as a pet.  Is it not fairer on the dogs to bread in greater adaptability – after all ,who knows what the future will bring – Shooting could even go the way of fox hunting eventually.  [There is after all a sizable minority already in favour of a ban on all blood sports].

Rather than trying to change the breed imo it would be 'fairer' to breed far, far fewer dogs and only the best quality and sell them to suitable homes.

I don't have a problem with working dogs also being pets, all mine are. My problem is with people trying to change the strain and producing watered down un-true to type dogs purely for the pet market. I said in my first post in this thread I think that some of them can make good pets for the right homes - i.e. the kind of home that wants to either do some working with them or participate in some other activities. To me though it should be up to the people to make sure they're suitable for the dog, not the other way around.

[PennyB]

I don't have a problem with working dogs also being pets, all mine are. My problem is with people trying to change the strain and producing watered down un-true to type dogs purely for the pet market. I said in my first post in this thread I think that some of them can make good pets for the right homes - i.e. the kind of home that wants to either do some working with them or participate in some other activities. To me though it should be up to the people to make sure they're suitable for the dog, not the other way around.

I don't get this idea either - if this is the case then may be a different breed all together is what some pet owners should have rather than changing the breed so much to their own needs and in most cases market needs.

[Helen]

I don't have a problem with working dogs also being pets, all mine are. My problem is with people trying to change the strain and producing watered down un-true to type dogs purely for the pet market. I said in my first post in this thread I think that some of them can make good pets for the right homes - i.e. the kind of home that wants to either do some working with them or participate in some other activities. To me though it should be up to the people to make sure they're suitable for the dog, not the other way around.

I don't get this idea either - if this is the case then may be a different breed all together is what some pet owners should have rather than changing the breed so much to their own needs and in most cases market needs.

Agree with Penny and Nicola.

I just don't understand why people desperately want working cockers but don't embrace the very parts of the dog that make it what it is....

so in 30 years time when all the indiscriminate pet working cocker breeders have bred their dogs that aren't fit for purpose what will we have?  The dog won't need the long ears for swooshing the scent around it's nose, the lovely square muzzle (already getting snipey in some lines) won't be necessary as they won't be picking up game, the very structure of the dog won't be required so will be leggy and rangy and won't have that determined little cocker gait, the zest for life and spirit for hunting will be watered down completely.....I don't want to go on as I don't want to contemplate it 

[Sarah1985]

To me though it should be up to the people to make sure they're suitable for the dog, not the other way around.

I completely agree with this. If you select a particualar type of dog it should be because thats the right dog for you. you have to be happy to take on both good and bad traits.

If those traits arent right for you why not look at one  of the many other dog breeds out there.

If you take on a dog you have a responsibility to meet its needs. With the huge wealth of information available there really is no excuse for picking the wrong dog.

I personally think that this is why rescue are overrun. Lack of research coupled with a throw away society. You need to go into a dog purchase with a complete understanding of what your taking on. Its not about taking on a cute puppy and then wondering why its developing the traits it was bred to have.

 And rather than attempt to tackle the problem they take the easy way out and give up on the dog with this idea that the dog will be better off in a new home. Would they give up on their kids so easierly or would they work with their kids to ensure they are fully meeting their needs 

I would like to think Laws of supply and demand would discourage breeding as there is no money to be made from it. Surely after a couple of litter that sold at a loss or couldnt be sold they'd realise that breeding isnt a good idea. or am I giving breeders too much credit?

[Helen]

Sarah, yes you are giving bad breeders too much credit 

It's not supply and demand - it's now supply and 'I want' 

Ages ago I spoke to a friend who breeds working working cockers and asked what her pre-requisites for buying her puppies were - here are the bones of them (and this is purely so you can see how she chooses where they go, it's not a stab at anyone at the board  )

The Musts
- Must go to working & pet home - if solely working then she must know them personally and how the dogs are trained and kennelled etc
- No children under 10
- Must have country home, definitely not city
- Must have experience of at least a working gundog breed

those are the ones that stuck in my head - she has dozens more 'rules', very much like a rescue really.  She only breeds from her bitches twice, all her litters are pre-sold and in the very unusual event that a dog has to be re-homed (emigration has been the only reason she can recall) then it comes back to her.

Her dogs are bred first and foremost for working ability, biddability, health and temperament.  Colour isn't a factor.  It's rare that you can actually get any of her puppies as they are always pre-booked.

Compare that to the 'I want' free ads on the internet with the cute photo's of hundreds of puppies on them - I want a working cocker puppy, I want a chocolate/lemon/black and tan one (insert favourite colour there  ) and I want it NOW....and I bet you can get one within a few hours if you have the cash available.


But is that right for the breed?

[Hurtwood Dogs]

Sarah, yes you are giving bad breeders too much credit 

It's not supply and demand - it's now supply and 'I want' 

Ages ago I spoke to a friend who breeds working working cockers and asked what her pre-requisites for buying her puppies were - here are the bones of them (and this is purely so you can see how she chooses where they go, it's not a stab at anyone at the board  )

The Musts
- Must go to working & pet home - if solely working then she must know them personally and how the dogs are trained and kennelled etc
- No children under 10
- Must have country home, definitely not city
- Must have experience of at least a working gundog breed

those are the ones that stuck in my head - she has dozens more 'rules', very much like a rescue really.  She only breeds from her bitches twice, all her litters are pre-sold and in the very unusual event that a dog has to be re-homed (emigration has been the only reason she can recall) then it comes back to her.

Her dogs are bred first and foremost for working ability, biddability, health and temperament.  Colour isn't a factor.  It's rare that you can actually get any of her puppies as they are always pre-booked.

Compare that to the 'I want' free ads on the internet with the cute photo's of hundreds of puppies on them - I want a working cocker puppy, I want a chocolate/lemon/black and tan one (insert favourite colour there  ) and I want it NOW....and I bet you can get one within a few hours if you have the cash available.


But is that right for the breed?

It's a real shame there aren't more breeders like her and she's in the overwhelming minority.

Whilst I believe very firmly that the responsibility for any dog and owner lays between the breeder and the puppy buyer, at the end of the day it's the breeders that have more experience and if they were more ethical about what they were breeding and where it was going... then the scale of the problem would be a lot less. But in general, they're not and lots of unsuitable homes that end up with workers (or indeed show cockers or any other dog).... because 'they want' and the breeders don't set them straight. Daisy being a recent classic case - IMO puppies shouldn't go to homes with babies/toddlers unless that home is very experienced with puppies, knows what's in store and can prove they have the knowledge and logistics in place to manage that, before we even get started on the whole issue of managing energy levels, stimulation and training for a working dog and her breeder will have known that...

[fifer]

Could it not be – correct me if I’m wrong, that it will very much depend on your definition of failed workers. 

Your concept of "working" is wrong, you can't fail something if you haven't been tested. 

• If a dog has not been worked in the field it is simply a working type cocker
• If it has been tested in the field and not met kennel standards then and only then is it a failed gundog/worker.

Trying to suggest that pups bred in working kennels have been tested and failed before sale is totally crazy, pups surplus to requirement from working kennels are simply working type cockers.  Just exactly the same as those bred by backyard breeders or pet owners, much of the definition "working worker" is in the gundog training which does not start until the pup is around 6 months old.  The most usual reason for failure from working kennels is a dog being gun shy.

[Jane S]

Whilst I believe very firmly that the responsibility for any dog and owner lays between the breeder and the puppy buyer, at the end of the day it's the breeders that have more experience and if they were more ethical about what they were breeding and where it was going... then the scale of the problem would be a lot less.

If only it was true that the breeders always have more experience - of course some do but so many litters are the product of someone with a pet bitch deciding it would be nice to have a litter or two; they have no idea what they are doing or that they should vet future owners and as for taking back a pup if something goes wrong, that wouldn't even occur to them. I think someone has already mentioned about stud dog owners on this thread and they should definitely share a lot of the blame for some of the irresponsible breeding going on - some owners (show and working) just do not seem to discriminate at all when it comes to allowing their dogs to be used and their only requirement seems to be payment of the stud fee