Author Topic: When is a cocker not a cocker  (Read 10130 times)

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Offline wendyt

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Re: When is a cocker not a cocker
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2011, 03:49:28 PM »
I have to agree with SteveB too.

I have 2 WCS and a few months ago I met a lady who was out with her show cocker. My 2 were out doing their retreiving and she stopped to watch. She turned to me and said "I've never seen a solid colour springer before, and youv'e got 2 of them, that's incredible", my answer to her was "I've never seen any either".

Then it began she just wouldn't believe me that they were cockers, so much so that she stopped another person who was passing with his little Border terrier and asked if he knew the breed of my boys. The guy turned to the woman and said " that's what cockers originally looked like before they were tweaked to suit the KC". I don't know who was more stunned her or me.

Another lady who I occassionally see when I'm out still asks me if I'm sure that they are cockers, I must have told her at least 5 or 6 times that yes I'm definately sure, I still think that she thinks I'm telling her a pack of lies. :-\

Both working and show are both cockers and that's what makes them so special. :blink:


Offline Marina and Saartje

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Re: When is a cocker not a cocker
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2011, 04:02:43 PM »
Curious about when the cocker spaniel split in to working and show... as you can see in the picture's I posted not untll the 1938, and that one looks more like a showtype then a workingtype.
greetings,
Marina, Saartje and Teun

Offline dal55

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Re: When is a cocker not a cocker
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2011, 04:04:56 PM »
Last year i was speaking to a Lab trainer about Cassie. I apologised at first saying I know she is a show type cocker etc etc etc  and my questions might be irrelevant, She said it didn't matter what type  she is, she  still is  a Spaniel with all the traits of a worker etc.I believe that show cockers,  more or else, just have been bred for a more luxurious coat I know Cass (if trained properly lol !!!)  would be a great gun dog Thunder, fireworks etc don't bother her one jot..................now if we could just get over "selective" deafness !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
One thing I do know, they are all the BEST little dogs

Offline Carolynleah

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Re: When is a cocker not a cocker
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2011, 04:49:58 PM »
I love the 'easy to train' bit  :lol2:  Nothing stays in Nerys' head for long  :005:

Offline bajoleth

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Re: When is a cocker not a cocker
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2011, 04:51:18 PM »
Curious about when the cocker spaniel split in to working and show... as you can see in the picture's I posted not untll the 1938, and that one looks more like a showtype then a workingtype.
I thought that too ;) The field Spaniels head has changed a lot too  ;) The 2nd pic look like Workers do now I think? Great pics ;)
Jo, Belle and Monty

Offline Jane S

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Re: When is a cocker not a cocker
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2011, 05:12:50 PM »
The problem is the Kennel club has messed with a lot of breeds. There are a few breeds still left with 2 types Cockers being one and GSD's another where people have continued to breed them for working rather than what they look like in the ring. How many breeds out there that were originally meant to do a job can no longer do what they were bred for. All because somebody in the KC believes that they know better.

The Cocker Spaniel breed standard has stayed much the same from the original breed standard laid down by the breed founders (some small alterations have been made but nothing major). It's people that change breeds not the Kennel Club - people have since time immemorial bred dogs for their own particular purposes and breeds have thus evolved to suit those different purposes.

Here on COL, we celebrate the Cocker Spaniel of both strains - neither is superior to the other and we love them all, show or working :luv: Show type dogs in the ring may look like very different to their working counterparts with their long flowing coats but take away those coats and they are at heart a happy, hunting Spaniel and indeed some are still worked by their owners. Of course there will always be the critics who say only one type is the "true Cocker" but I've always believed there are more similarities than differences between the two strains ;) Some might say we are actually quite fortunate to be able to choose the type of Cocker that most suits us and our lifestyles :D

Jane

Offline lindseyp

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Re: When is a cocker not a cocker
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2011, 05:44:17 PM »
...you aren't about 1" tall & have lovely green hair do you Gary?? .......sound like a Troll to me  :lol2:

....no problem though - we love talking & discussing Cockers (all types, sizes & colour ) all day long  :D :luv:


Fab pictures Marina - you can see from those early ones how all Spaniels are linked way way back  :shades: - some clever mixing by breeders trying to get the perfect type for it's intended purpose, have given us some wonderful dogs  :luv: :luv:

I just luff 'em all  :005: :angel:
If your dog thinks you're the best.....don't seek a second opinion!!


Offline SteveB

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Re: When is a cocker not a cocker
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2011, 05:44:33 PM »
The Cocker Spaniel breed standard has stayed much the same from the original breed standard laid down by the breed founders (some small alterations have been made but nothing major). It's people that change breeds not the Kennel Club - people have since time immemorial bred dogs for their own particular purposes and breeds have thus evolved to suit those different purposes.

I agree with all you have posted apart from the above. The kennel club is made up of people the last time I looked and at the end of the day they have agreed to the breed standard. Not always to the benefit of the breed eg Ridgebacks and one of my favourite dogs the GSD (which I have owned for the last 30years).
Link for you  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIaM3hYFszc

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Offline Jane S

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Re: When is a cocker not a cocker
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2011, 06:07:11 PM »
I agree with all you have posted apart from the above. The kennel club is made up of people the last time I looked and at the end of the day they have agreed to the breed standard. Not always to the benefit of the breed eg Ridgebacks and one of my favourite dogs the GSD (which I have owned for the last 30years).

We're talking about Cockers not Ridgebacks or GSDs (definitely not getting into the GSD question on here :005: I've seen plenty of other forums where very heated discussions can be found on that particular breed ph34r)

It's a common misconception that the Cocker breed standard (which contains no exaggerations or extreme points the last time I looked) was somehow invented by show exhibitors but actually it was drawn up by the breed founders (even though it is now owned by the Kennel Club) and was adopted by the KC long before the split into show and working strains.

Jane

Offline praia

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Re: When is a cocker not a cocker
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2011, 06:26:22 PM »
The Cocker Spaniel breed standard has stayed much the same from the original breed standard laid down by the breed founders (some small alterations have been made but nothing major). It's people that change breeds not the Kennel Club - people have since time immemorial bred dogs for their own particular purposes and breeds have thus evolved to suit those different purposes.

I agree with all you have posted apart from the above. The kennel club is made up of people the last time I looked and at the end of the day they have agreed to the breed standard.

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The Kennel club is simply a registry for dogs.  Most of the breed standards you see today remain unchanged from when breed type was first established.  The problem is that a breed standard is always up for interpretation and the traits that people want now and reward breeders for now may not be the traits that were first considered desirable for the breed's original function.  If anyone is to be blamed it's individual judges who reward for undesirable traits and breeders who breed for those traits for the sole goal of winning for themselves instead of winning for the breed as as a whole.

The standard for cockers specifically states that a coat that is "not too profuse" is desirable yet many breeders are rewarded for having dogs with coats that are much too heavy to be functional. Modern show cockers tend to have a much heavier coat than earlier dogs, but honestly they bear more resemblance in type to the founding Cockers of old than many of the working Cockers you see today, but that's what happens when working spaniel breeders pay hardly any attention to conformation or breed type.

The same goes for your favorite dog, the GSD.  Looking at the standard it specifically states, "versatile working dog, balanced and free from exaggeration," "Clear definition of masculinity and femininity essential" (this one is a bigger problem for American bred GSDs),"working ability never sacrificed for mere beauty", yet roached backed dogs with their hocks flapping around on the ground are winning in the ring.  Whose to blame, the breed standard that was clearly written for the versatile working dog that Max von Stephanitz envisioned or the judges and the breeders who breed for what they see to be the perfect bone structure and a beautiful gait vs actual working ability?

Many breeds are on the road to ruin, because of peoples' misinterpretation or complete disregard of the original standard, but it is of my opinion that the Cocker Spaniel (at least the English version) is NOT one of them.   In my heart I would love nothing more than there be absolutely no separation in type, like you see in other working/gun dog breeds, but regardless of the modern trend to split type, both versions are endeared to me.  Both types are beautiful in their individual way and both types should be celebrated for what they are: Cocker Spaniels.

Offline JulieM

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Re: When is a cocker not a cocker
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2011, 06:54:34 PM »
My show cocker loves meeting other cockers more than meeting any other breeds  :luv:  ...this applies equally to working or show strains- if our Dogs considers both strains to be family then my feeling is we should continue to too!

Offline Danni and Freya

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Re: When is a cocker not a cocker
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2011, 06:56:20 PM »
My show cocker loves meeting other cockers more than meeting any other breeds  :luv:  ...this applies equally to working or show strains- if our Dogs considers both strains to be family then my feeling is we should continue to too!

Love this, very true, made me smile  :blink:

Offline Marina and Saartje

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Re: When is a cocker not a cocker
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2011, 07:08:28 PM »
alltough this thread is not about German Shepherds I've got a picture of that breed also from 1895



1938


and one from 1968:


 and how they look now:


I prefer the first two :shades:
greetings,
Marina, Saartje and Teun

Offline aberry

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Re: When is a cocker not a cocker
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2011, 07:38:07 PM »
Was reading a couple of these  responses aloud - purely so i could get the gist of what people were saying - my friend in the kitchen was getting alarmed and thought i was reading something from 'Match.com' :005: :005:  After a brief explanation her response was ..... one should not get worried about show or working strains but perhaps rethink the word 'cocker'!!   ;)

Offline garygttdi

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Re: When is a cocker not a cocker
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2011, 09:51:22 AM »
My point then is this if the breed is separating into two distinct forms then owners would be helpful is they referred to their dogs as Show Cockers or Working cockers.

I have nothing against either but it does none of us any good when we tell none cocker owners we have a cocker when they do not understand the difference.

And no I am not 1 inch tall with green hair, although have been times in my life when I wish I had been.

I do prefer the show type if that is what you wanted me to say, I love all dogs so really not that bothered. Just think to the uninitiated we need to be clear what we tell others, especially if a person is going to purchase a puppy!

Just as an after thought go up to a pointer owner and say is that an English or German pointer and see what reaction you get!
 ;)