Author Topic: Farmers, pheasants and dogs  (Read 15783 times)

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Offline Sheepscheeks

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Re: Farmers, pheasants and dogs
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2011, 01:48:25 PM »
I dont want to sound bitter and cynical, but I have good reason... but as you say when your dog is shot that is it..., rights and wrongs dont matter, farmers and gamekeepers often work with a foot on either side of the law, but they know what they do can rarely be proved, so it is not worth the risk... and regarding their livelihoods..maybe some struggle , but they would struggle a lot more without all the hand-outs they get from the public purse, maybe they should think about that when dictating where, when and how we enjoy the countryside.

Well, that is one point of view I suppose but strictly speaking aren't our dogs trespassing on their land if they stray off the footpath (and whose dog stays 100% on a footpath and NEVER goes for a sniff in a field?) Handouts from the public purse or not I think the point is that if pheasants are their livestock then farmers have every right to tell us to keep our dogs under control on their land. I was in complete ignorance before I started this thread and now I have been reliably informed I won't be taking any chances. We may enjoy the countryside but follow the countryside code must we not?
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Offline ollie nathan's mum

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Re: Farmers, pheasants and dogs
« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2011, 01:52:03 PM »
I dont want to sound bitter and cynical, but I have good reason... but as you say when your dog is shot that is it..., rights and wrongs dont matter, farmers and gamekeepers often work with a foot on either side of the law, but they know what they do can rarely be proved, so it is not worth the risk... and regarding their livelihoods..maybe some struggle , but they would struggle a lot more without all the hand-outs they get from the public purse, maybe they should think about that when dictating where, when and how we enjoy the countryside.


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Offline seaangler

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Re: Farmers, pheasants and dogs
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2011, 03:18:53 PM »
thank goodness for that SeaAngler  :lol2:  You did make me think though and then I found this on the BASC site:

"The definition of 'livestock' under The Dogs (Protection of Livestock) Act 1953 includes cattle, sheep, goats, swine, horses and poultry. Game birds are not included. However, for the purposes of civil proceedings under the Animals Act 1971 it includes pheasants, partridges and grouse in captivity"

The thing is once they're out of the pheasant pens then they're not really in captivity - I guess the argument is that they are still fed, and are in a contained area ie the shoot drive  :huh:

I would not like to argue the case in court....But i do see ware you are coming from(once out of a contained area) but they are still on private land(all the same)





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Offline Coco

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Re: Farmers, pheasants and dogs
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2011, 11:38:28 AM »
I dont want to sound bitter and cynical, but I have good reason... but as you say when your dog is shot that is it..., rights and wrongs dont matter, farmers and gamekeepers often work with a foot on either side of the law, but they know what they do can rarely be proved, so it is not worth the risk... and regarding their livelihoods..maybe some struggle , but they would struggle a lot more without all the hand-outs they get from the public purse, maybe they should think about that when dictating where, when and how we enjoy the countryside.


But would you say it's acceptable to tresspass on someone's garden because they we given a council house or we can all use the car awarded to a struggling family? Hand outs or not their rights remain the same. If it's their land, it's their land. It's their responsibility to pen their livestock and if it gets out of that area that's a different story, but it's a question of respect. Just because they want to blur the lines doesn't mean to say that we should behave in the same way. Looking at some of the laws, restrictions and 'guidelines' they are bound to, it's not suprising they are fully aware of what they can and can't do.
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Offline Tillymai

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Re: Farmers, pheasants and dogs
« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2011, 06:15:48 PM »
Been reading this with interest. My parents live in the middle of nowhere but their garden is close to land maintained for pheasant shooting. They regularly get pheasants in their garden. One male pheasant puts in such frequent appearances with his harem of 6 females, that they now call him Henry (after Henry VIII).

We took Bear down for a visit recently and he was happily sunning himself in the garden when Henry with his loud ruffle of feathers and noisy squawk. Poor Bear was terrified, you've never seen a pup scarper indoors so fast  :005: His 'gundog' instinct is obviously burried very deep  :005:

Was just wondering what the gamekeeper would make of it if I shot his pheasant for pestering my dog  ;)  :005:

Offline Ben's mum

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Re: Farmers, pheasants and dogs
« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2011, 08:18:24 PM »
this is really interesting.  The land we have just rented has a shoot on it every other saturday throughout the season, and as such there are lots of pheasants in the woods and some of the fields. 

It has shown me two things.  Firstly that all our hard work with Ben has paid off and he is a little star and has been so good with his recall, and secondly we need to do lots more work with Harry  ph34r the fields obviously just smell like pheasants all over them as both get thier noses down as soon as we get on the land.  Ben does start to chase accross when he gets a scent but comes back every time to the whistle.  Harry has gone back on a longline as once his nose is down he can't focus on me for very long at all and I just don't trust him, I am doing lots of recalls but is 50/50 as to whether he would come back if he saw a bird, so the longline stays for now!

Offline seaangler

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Re: Farmers, pheasants and dogs
« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2011, 08:28:40 PM »
Been reading this with interest. My parents live in the middle of nowhere but their garden is close to land maintained for pheasant shooting. They regularly get pheasants in their garden. One male pheasant puts in such frequent appearances with his harem of 6 females, that they now call him Henry (after Henry VIII).

We took Bear down for a visit recently and he was happily sunning himself in the garden when Henry with his loud ruffle of feathers and noisy squawk. Poor Bear was terrified, you've never seen a pup scarper indoors so fast  :005: His 'gundog' instinct is obviously burried very deep  :005:

Was just wondering what the gamekeeper would make of it if I shot his pheasant for pestering my dog  ;)  :005:

 :rofl1:The other day while out with the dogs Peggy sniffing away when a fessy could no longer hide done his noisey squawk and broke his cover and scard the dogs...It was so funny seeing gemma saying what the hell was that...






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Offline dal55

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Re: Farmers, pheasants and dogs
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2011, 09:19:02 PM »
I agree with Helen, you should try to get some gundog training. Cassie is the same for chasing pheasants and we live on the edge of a shooting estate. I had a trainer come to see Cassie on a one to one basis. He gave me some great tips and now I can almost always manage to distract her before she is in the "zone " You have to recognise the signs early.Find out what is her MOST favourite toy, take it with you and try distraction with it when you think birds are scented or about to be flushed
 Cassies are sticks and better them than shot !

Offline sq99

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Re: Farmers, pheasants and dogs
« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2015, 10:42:52 PM »
My dog chased a pheasant last year. We live rurally and I am not unsympathetic to the fact that this is part of our local farmers livelihood. Therefore, whenever we go near a pen, I put my dog on a leash. She runs forwards so once we are past the pen, it is safe to release her. On this occasion, a young pheasant flew up right under my feet from the side of a stubble field well away from the pen. It gave me a fright and I shouted. My dog chased the pheasant. It flew low and straight back over a huge field to its pen and of course my dog chased it. The farmer saw this, drove his vehicle straight across the field and blocked my path up the public footpath with his vehicle. He screamed abuse at me, calling me a stupid fucking bitch amongst other delights (whilst physically barring me from going and collecting my dog) and threatened to shoot her on the spot. The dog never entered the pen and just ran up and down the public footpath where his pheasants were sunning themselves.

One of the issues here is that our local farmer has positioned his pens along every public footpath in a two mile radius from our village. It is obviously easier for him to feed them that way and he liberally scatters food along the footpaths once they are out of their pens. However, it causes all users of the public footpaths real problems and he is notorious for his aggressive and threatening behaviour.

I was absolutely terrified and furious. My dog does not do this regularly (I don't encourage this behaviour and I fully admit fault here) and neither she nor I deserved to be treated like this.

I called the police immediately I got home and got (both verbally and in writing) confirmation that once pheasants are out of pens, NO FARMER HAS THE RIGHT TO SHOOT YOUR DOG and that even threatening to do so constitutes a criminal offence.

You are NOT ALLOWED to threaten people with guns in this country, particularly not when you are in a tearing rage and the police told me straight that their immediate response to this would be to remove the farmers gun licence immediately and possibly they would also arrest the farmer.

According to the police this business of farmers and game keepers bullying and threatening dog walkers over pheasants is an increasing and very worrying problem. Noone wants regular and aggressive confrontations between people, particularly when one of those people is armed with a loaded shotgun.

Half the problem here is that farmers and game-keepers think they have the right to behave like they live in the wild west, and the public don't know any better.

From my point of view of course the public should be respectful of a farmers livelihood, but likewise, farmers could put their pheasants away from public places and by doing so, by default these situations would occur less often. They should also know the law and be quite clear that they have very little (if any) defence regarding shooting anything in a fury.

Our farmers pheasants have migrated over half a mile away from his pens now and litter all our local lanes and hedgerows - including my driveway. I am terrified all the time as if she chases any of these sodding birds and they head back to their pens, she risks being shot if she follows them (which she would).

I am unconvinced that the farmers right to raise these birds to shoot for personal profit overwhelmingly overrides everyone else's right to use public rights of way without the risk and threat of violence for six months of the year.

Offline Mudmagnets

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Re: Farmers, pheasants and dogs
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2015, 10:53:38 PM »
Good gracious this is a blast from the past  :D
Remembering Smudge 23/11/2006 - 3/8/2013, and Branston 30/8/14 - 28/10/22 both now at the Bridge.

Offline MIN

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Re: Farmers, pheasants and dogs
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2015, 11:06:41 PM »
its a unlucky pheasant if it wanders across our path. Gemma sometimes has better luck than the guns.
 
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Offline *Marie*

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Re: Farmers, pheasants and dogs
« Reply #41 on: September 15, 2015, 11:44:03 AM »
I,m lucky Bracken is steady around any game he flushed a pheasant out from our walk once it chuckled away he totally ignored it, but nice to know they are classed as livestock

Offline Sweepy

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Re: Farmers, pheasants and dogs
« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2015, 08:17:31 AM »
Read this article with great interest. Where to begin.  Firstly, anyone, with or without a shotgun in hand (ie, owns a shotgun certificate) threatening another person can/and should have their shotgun certificate revoked, which means they cannot legally own a shotgun or firearm (most gamekeepers have a firearm certificate for rifles, which is for pest control).  Secondly, the gamekeeper/farmer will not place his phessie pens in convenient places for access, they will be in convenient places for shooting.  They buy the young birds "poults" and raise them in pens.  Upon maturity, this time of year ladies and gents, the are "fed in" to "cover crops" or wooded areas.  The reason for this is two fold, these areas are usually on top of hills, in woods or other areas of "cover".  On shoot days, the surrounding hedges etc are "beaten" into the cover crop or wood and then they are "beaten" out of "cover", towards the guns, who are usually/but not always lower down, so the birds get height.  It's very dangerous to shoot "low" birds, so the idea is to get them "up".  They also "feed them in" to these areas to keep them on their land.  Once a phessie (or patridge) has landed off the shoot land, it's no longer their property.  It could well land on another shoot, yippee for them eh, which could well be only a few fields away (I have come across shoots that purposely set up next to big shoots to steal birds). Which is probably why they get so irate about their phessies being chased.  How to recognise a cover crop - at this time of year it's quite simple, field with a corner of tall standing crop in it, probably maize (sweetcorn to the uninitiated).  Sometimes artichokes etc, tall crops, wheat, etc, that kind of thing.  It won't be a field full of crop - just a corner of a field, usually/but not always an elevated site.  However, there are still full fields of maize standing at the moment - these are for "whole crop" nothing to do with shooting.  They are there for winter feed for animals and will be harvested next month.  I always put my dog on a lead when I see cover crops, holding pens and through the woods this time of year.  Recognise them and learn your environment. 
The attitude "without all the hand outs they get from the public purse" does not help one bit.  Whatsoever.   Farmers are "subsidised".  They are "subsidised" to produce crops that we need, which are not necessarily the most profitable crops to grow.  They are "subsidised" to have set aside for wildlife, corridors of green, usually a 10 m fringe on each field.  Obviously if you're in the Fens and your field is 50 acres, then that's not much is it.  If your field is 10 acres, and there's a 10 m boundary, it soon adds up.  Farmers are "subsidised" to keep this land for wildlife, wildflowers etc.  They are also "subsidised" to keep our food prices low.  Without it you could increase your food bill considerably, without it, you wouldn't have the choice of weather to buy British as there would be no dairy industry left in the UK.  Without it you would have no choice than to eat cheap, unregulated, foreign food that does not have the traceability, hygiene, welfare and surety that UK produced products do and, to be honest, it is precisely that attitude that makes farmers very anti "townies", which basically translated, is someone who has absolutely no understanding of how the countryside works and just wants somewhere to walk their dog at the weekends.
Should you come across your local farmers, take the time to talk to them, learn about what they do, which land is theirs.  You'll find once you show an interest it becomes a mutually beneficial relationship.  I am fortunate enough to know all the farmers on the land I walk on.  If there's something wrong, ie stock has got out or someone's left a gate open, they know I'll put the stock back where it should be and close the gate.  In return, I get to wander way off the footpaths, picking mushrooms, blackberries and sloes as I go.  It is a relationship based on mutual respect and benefit and it works well once you put a bit of effort in.

Offline Emilyoliver

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Re: Farmers, pheasants and dogs
« Reply #43 on: October 08, 2015, 11:48:16 AM »
Well said, Sweepy.  I believe it is a privilege to have access to footpaths on private land and we should never abuse it.  Also, if you have a work bred cocker, the best ting you can do for its and your benefit is to train it for the job it was bred to do.  That way you have a controllable, happy dog, and potential access to all sorts of extra non-public land...  We have access to our shoot land out of season to help with dogging-in and for training my dogs.  Opens up a whole new world.
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Offline Archie bean

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Re: Farmers, pheasants and dogs
« Reply #44 on: October 08, 2015, 04:26:40 PM »
Sweepy you are lucky.  I am lucky too. But it's not necessarily the norm I'm afraid. I was born and raised in the country in a shooting family and taught the ways of the countryside since before I could walk. The farmers around the village I live in are great. Local dog walkers have permissive access to non public land.....but not for much longer. The payback for the good relationship is that "townies" see walkers and dogs having a lovely time off the footpaths and follow suit. And why wouldn't they let's face it? The result, for us, is that the access is about to be removed. I know this from talking to the farmers. The many spoil it for the few. BUT.....not all farmers are as helpful or approachable as ours and they do themselves and their industry no favours. A few villages away from me, where my Mum lives it's very different.  No access, insults, abuse (and that's just if you are walking along a road and could possibly be heading in the direction of a field - as happened to my Mum a few years back.) No interest in creating a give and take community. No amount of effort being put in would change anything.
There is an ever increasing feeling to me of "anti-dog" in this country. In the countryside it's because of crops and livestock. In public forests it's because of bike access (I no longer walk in my local forest because it's just not safe). In public parks it's because of children playing etc etc and I fear it's getting worse. Off lead walks anywhere may one day be a thing of the past.